The Luminous Mind & The Presence of God

Amida

I was raised a christian, but I'm not longer christian, as I have no reason to believe extraordinary claims without evidence; plus, my experiences seemed to contradict christian claims. Also, I don't think the idea of a designer god, who is a lot like an evolved primate, designed the world, etc., etc., etc. I won't list all the reasons I'm no longer a christian, as there are many.

When I was around 14, I decided to walk the way of virtue and set my attention, as much as possible, on God. As I set my attention on what I believed to be God, I'd experience peace beyond description and this luminous awareness of what I believed to be the presence of God. This was blissful, vibrating with energy.

To my amazement, after I was no longer christian, I could still enter into this luminous state of mind by single pointed focus. It appears that at 14, I was practicing a form of Zazen and didn't know it, which produced this luminous mind, which I related to the presence of God.

I'm convinced the "Luminous Mind", which is experienced in Zazen, is the same "Presence of God" christians experience when they set their minds on God. It appears the doorway to this state is subtle concentration on a focal point, whether it be on the mind or on the idea of God.

There's a verse in the bible that says, "He will keep in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Him." Isaiah 26:3 --- It appears many christians practice a form of Zazen without knowing it.

ThailandTom

I would not know of any particular practice over any sense of god, but I do know that christians attach to a lot of things thus there will inevitablly suffer due to their ignorance. You may get this luminosity, but there is a whole lot more to buddhism than single pointed concentration.

Also to add and I do not wish to offend, but I believe that no parent should raise their children to any religion as everybody is different, even if cut from the same cloth, it can ruin peoples lives and cause a great deal of confusion and suffering. I am glad my parents did not even get me christened, which in the UK is even a tradition among non church goers. One should find their own way in life.

I feel that you are still stuck between two things here, I cannot relate to your experiences but at any rate, you have to walk down your path

Mountains

Whatever label we put on it, does it make a difference?

Amida

@ThailandTom

I agree. One shouldn't raise their children in the dogmas of religion, or insist they believe extraordinary claims without evidence. They should be offered all views and left to decide on their own, in relation to their experience.

Even Buddhism can be dangerous and hinder people, as is beamingly clear by the attitude of some on this forum. Some people think they "know" something and it turns them into arrogant and rude people. I've seen religion turn fairly decent people into monsters. As Weinberg said, "With or without religion, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”

Anyways, I'm curious if anyone else on this forum was ever a christian and experienced, what christians call, "The Presence of God" and have you found this can be experienced through practices such as Zazen?

@Mountains

I think it matters, so one can gain a better understanding of what's really going on in the mind.

ThailandTom

religion and what one person decides to follow ot not follow for that matter boils down to mental disposition.

Amida

Perhaps... That and experiences that may shift them away from their natural disposition.

I think I was inclined, by disposition, to remain a christian, but various factors shifted me away from where I'd naturally settle.

IronRabbit

Of course it matters - and - nothing really matters.

Having a neat, precise, metaphysical explanation for phenomenon and experience is not what Zen Buddhism is about. Understanding experience in this sense is counter to the "uncertainty" that permeates Zen. "Don't know" is not a secret code for linking the Judeo Christian belief system and mystical articles of faith with Zen Buddhism. Rather it speaks to disregarding that tendency of the human mind to explain, draw similarities and thereby comprehend - in favor of raw experiential awareness.

All that said - it can be observed that such rhetoric is just another circuitous approach to "understand" and saying what Zen is not is just as futile as saying what it is. Sorry about that.

Amida

Point was, what christians call the presence of god, zen buddhists call the luminous mind. No special christian belief if needed to experience this state.

Christians find it irritating when I point this out, and apparently some buddhists do too. As the Buddha said, "They will always find blame/fault, no matter what you say."

IronRabbit

Point is, Zen Buddhists don't draw similarities to christian concepts of mysticism - god consciousness. "Luminous mind" creates mental formations in the Judeo Christian trained mind that compare very satisfactorily. They simply don't mean the same - just as "no-mind" does not mean insanity - or "emptiness" does not connote nihilism. Luminous mind is ineffable - beyond conceptual understanding. Luminous mind is simply awareness within existence - awareness of no identity - awareness of the connection of the energy of life and death - here and now.

Perception of irritation is irritation itself. Perhaps it irritates that one's great moment of awareness is not shared - even disputed. Or maybe not.

ThailandTom

Amida, with all due respect you need to do some soul searching (do not take it literally), but you will keep getting similar answers here, well some of us have more patience than others, but it is obvious you are stuck between paths, a fork in the road if you will. We cannot push you anywhere, you have to walk those steps so please try and work it out for yourself. You may come to a conclusion in a day and change the next, you may take a year and change your opinion 20 years down the line, but you get what I am saying right?

Amida

@IronRabbit

I'm saying, I *know* it's the same effect. The blissful/peaceful/luminous experience is the *same* thing. Zazen and christian meditation produce the same effect on the mind. Some call it the presence of god, others the luminous mind; same effect. I know this by experience. That's all I'm saying.

@ThailandTom

I don't think any religion is completely right. Each faith offers things the others don't. By having no label, I'm free to select, from all of them, that which I believe to be beneficial. By being nothing I am free to be all things.

In my opinion, every faith, even Buddhism, is a hit and miss belief system. I don't surrender my mind or experiences to the thoughts of Jesus or Buddha, but on some points I find agreement. Plus, Buddha and Jesus probably didn't even say a lot of what was said for them by their later followers.

ThailandTom

hmmm, surrender, I do not know if many of us here do that... But you are entitled to your opinion and that is just. Like I have said, you walk your path, so walk it!

Amida

Yeah...

I see good in Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, Hinduism, etc.. I think those who adopt one label, and abandon other faiths, are like a man who leaves behind trasures.

I liken him to a man who was given five treasure chests. He opens the one, and says, "I have enough!" And leaves the other four to thieves.

I think all fields grow wheat and tares, including christianity and buddhism. I try my best to sort through the wheat and tares in the light of my experience and what rings true within. I'm as much a Buddhist as I am a Christian or a Taoist, but, again, by remaining no-thing, in regards to labels, I am free to be all there is to be without limitation of doctrines.

federica

Yes, and to prevaricate in all of them. Like walking on logs in water.....

person

There are 4 jhana states of absorbtion plus many others. In Buddhist cosmology absorbtion in those jhana states lead to a birth in one of the formless realms (I know you have your doubts about rebirth, just saying). Its only a realization of the emptiness of self that is said to lead one to the state of nirvana. My point being that all blissful states of absorbtion aren't necessarily created equal, but your experience could be the same, hard to say.

aura

Yes, and to prevaricate in all of them. Like walking on logs in water.....

Or perhaps this individual is simply interviewing all the blind men in order to gain everyone's perceptions of the elephant.