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Are there any Debates in the translations (diction) of the 4nt or the 8fp?
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So there are often different right views and right intentions as well as the rest of the wheel would be different out of it. :wave:
But imo, the essence of them is very simple and understandable. A good book that explains them clearly is Thich Nhat Hanh's The Heart of the Buddhas Teaching.
Namaste
from Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html
Here is my lama speaking, Lama Shenpen Hookham... (this is from buddhism connect a free email question student/teacher experpt which you may sign up for):
The Eightfold Path
Summary: The eightfold path is a basic buddhist teaching. Lama Shenpen discusses with a student, how she teaches this, without it being particularly referred to.
A student asks:
I participate in a forum, where many of the practitioners are Theravadan. What they consider basic to Buddhism is the eightfold path, the four noble truths, the precepts, and meditation. I have seen the four noble truths in Never Turn Away, by Rigdzin Shikpo, and meditation of course with the precepts.
But I haven't heard too much talk of the eightfold path. Are the paramitas absorbing the eightfold path? I think you commented one time that the eightfold path is an advanced teaching? But then what is the fourth noble truth until the eightfold path is reached? It seems that the eightfold path to me is a formulation of mind, behaviour, body or behavioural medicine. A formulation with the instruction 'do everything right'. I am sure there is more instruction how to go about this and so I am curious.
Lama Shenpen replies:
The eightfold path begins with right view. It is called the Aryan eightfold path so right view has to refer to the Enlightened view of the Aryas. In other words, rather than the view being the result of the path, it is the basis of the path. When the view is right, the thought or intention can be right, which means the speech and action can be right as also the way of life (livelihood), mindfulness, effort and concentration. As you say though, the eightfold path is often taught as being a formula for how one should live one’s life right from the beginning. One adopts a right view or at least one’s best approximation to the right view even if it’s simply to view the ten unskilful actions as being what need to be given up and the ten skilful actions as being what need to be put into practice.
On the basis of such a right view, one can adopt the right thought or intention and so on. It does in fact work as a formula for how an ordinary person whatever their level of realisation should live their lives. However, unless the eightfold path is based on the right view of the Enlightened Arya, it’s not the fourth noble (Arya) truth. It is a preliminary practice leading up to realising the Arya’s right view.
Although I don’t often talk about the eightfold path as such I do talk about how to deepen one’s view, how to meditate in order to be able to focus (concentrate) properly and how to take that awareness into the actions of body, speech and mind, and into how we make life choices, how we distinguish what to give up and what to cultivate (mindfulness) and how generosity and discipline, keeping one’s word and practising kshanti (forbearance) increase the energy of the practice mandala making meditation and realisation possible. So all the elements are there even though not fitted into the formula of an eightfold path.
We need a lot of instruction in regard to every one of these elements - as an eightfold path or otherwise.
Hope this helps.
I don't understand the intention. From my experiences, the eightfold path as a stake is very useful and even for kids understand able in daily life. From my view its just synthetic compound and a reduction of peoples own capacity independent form the teacher.
Once you understand the function of the eightfold path (there is no more teaching beside it - that's the way out of suffering) you will never have problem to walk on.
You would also have the possibility to cross check if your teacher is correct, has the right view, right intention, right livelihood...
*smile*
If you read my post (above):
I don't believe that the message of the buddhism connect experpt contradicts what you have said in the post directly above mine.. If you read it from where I am standing. Though I don't recall any statement that the 8fold path only applies to an absence of a teacher, which I doubt you meant.
The point my teacher made is that the right view isn't a fruition but rather a base of the 8 fold path.
I was responding to your statement that the Tibetan Buddhists do not study the sutras and thus have no exposure to the eightfold path. That is the post where I contradict you not in the post just above mine here. Its also probably not true that Tibetan students do not study sutras and that all Theravada students do. I guess we can go down the path of 'real Christians' and 'fake Christian'>:]
My teacher's method she developed (for western students) does address the eightfold path as is seen in the excerpt (of the buddhism connect).
If the crossings are not developed (mostly its the virtue / at least right livelihood) there is no attaining of right mindfulness and right concentration, and so there will be no right view.
Right view starts with a little right concentration. You can see 1000 people old, sick, and dying, but if you don't have a moment of right mindfulness and right concentration you will not understand it like it really is.
So we can say that such a practices without an amount of right view might be a pre-practice to come one day to the eightfold path and the teachings of the Buddha. So maybe that is the intention of such a kind of teaching.
But it could be that there are some who had already some insight and on that way you would lead them on the wrong track with would not be necessary.
One more reason could be, to keep the people in the circle of wandering on. Often synthetic "non-attachment" is used to stretch the crossings of virtue. But how ever, if wheel is not developed in a solid way, it would not turn for the first time and therefore people would not really enter the stream. Its not really round and one needs to push it all the time, it hasn't set in move.
Regarding sutta study, I don't think it is necessary and mostly more a hindrance (special for people attached to intellectualism/modern man) - Practice means to put it into practice. There is nothing special and one can find everything in his own heart.
There is brain masturbation in every tradition.
*smile*
The Buddha taught very simply, sometimes maybe to simply I guess.