Can meditation beyond one hour daily be counter-productive?

ddrishi

Jim Malloy, a meditation teacher of 37 years experience, said in reply to a question on his website meditationcenter.com :

I've been getting a lot of enquiries lately, regarding increased meditation time, so first, here are the guidelines I generally recommend:
• 10 - 15 minutes a day for the first month.
• 15 - 20 minutes once a day, or 10 - 15 minutes twice a day for a year or so.
• 20 minutes once or twice a day for meditators with over a year's experience.
• The same for persons with quite a few years of experience, but for those who feel the need for more, I suggest capping it at 1 hour a day.

Elsewhere also, he has opined that meditation beyond 1 hour daily can be counter-productive.

I will like to know the opinion of experienced meditators on this forum as I still harbour some doubts on this subject.

Vajraheart

I meditated many hours a day for a number of years and found it amazing! The experiences are life changing.

Hanzze

So its always a question what productive means. *smile* Productive for more compensation, productive for more insight, productive to reduce productivity, productive to turn on the wheel for a longer time...
There are people meditating lifetimes.

Maybe this is useful:

In the Shape of a Circle

In practicing, don't think that you have to sit in order for it to be meditation, that you have to walk back and forth in order for it to be meditation. Don't think like that. Meditation is simply a matter of practice. Whether you're giving a sermon, sitting here listening, or going away from here, keep up the practice in your heart. Be alert to what's proper and what's not.

Don't decide that it's okay to observe the ascetic practices during the Rains retreat and then drop them when the retreat is over. It's not okay. Things don't balance out in that way. It's like clearing a field. We keep cutting away, cutting away, and then stop to rest when we're tired. We put away our hoe and then come back a month or two later. The weeds are now all taller than the stumps. If we try to clear away the area we cleared away before, it's too much for us.

Ajaan Mun once said that we have to make our practice the shape of a circle. A circle never comes to an end. Keep it going continually. Keep the practice going continually without stop. I listened to him and I thought, "When I've finished listening to this talk, what should I do?"

The answer is to make your alertness akaliko: timeless. Make sure that the mind knows and sees what's proper and what's not, at all times.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms.html

Cinorjer

I checked out the website. For the person this self-help series of courses is aimed at, namely the people who want some health benefit or the occasional New Age dabbler seeking some altered state of consciousness, that is good advice. Anything beyond an hour or so is probably going to be counter-productive.

Hanzze

Anything beyond an hour or so is probably going to be counter-productive.

Why do you think so?

Daozen

Seems highly unlikely, since monks meditate for many hours.

Hanzze

Well that is a different livelihood.

Mountains

What does that have to do with meditating?

I'm impressed... two successive postings with no *smile*! You're finally getting the message Hanzee??

Hanzze

Sorry I forgot *smile*

Well I guess your boss would not have that much joy if we meditate for many hours.
One deeply involved in worldly issues and meditation for hours, would maybe do something wrong, or let me say, it would be maybe just a progress in expanding compensation.

Cinorjer

Anything beyond an hour or so is probably going to be counter-productive.

Why do you think so?

The courses are beginner self-help in this case, and very few people are going to experience anything but frustration, maybe damage the circulation and nerves in their legs, and end up quitting meditation entirely if they try to push hours of meditation each day. Sure, monks and especially Zen monks meditate for huge blocks of the day sometimes. But those are professionals in a structured setting. All teaching and advice has to be structured for the intended audience. This website isn't aimed at the dedicated Buddhist under the guidance of a monk, and certainly not monks.

If anyone wants to do more than short, effective periods of regular meditation, I highly recommend they find some sort of teacher experienced in guiding people through the problems that are going to come up. Yes, some people can do it on their own. But not generally recommended.

seeker242

I used to do 4 hours a day. Best practice ever! Very productive, so not necessarily.

Hanzze

Cinorjer,

I don't think that their could happened much damage. Just calling the mind and train the mind to be focused should not cause frustration. For sure it would be frustrated if somebody likes something to happen.
There is nothing wrong with hours of just watching. Once one can do this well, he would not have much problems to gain also right concentration.

Jogging some hours a day has nothing contra productive, the question is maybe more about: Why one would need to jog for hours every day, or even likes more and more.
*smile*

Hanzze

I used to do 4 hours a day. Best practice ever! Very productive, so not necessarily.

What was the product? 4h a day is not less. *smile*

seeker242

I used to do 4 hours a day. Best practice ever! Very productive, so not necessarily.

What was the product? 4h a day is not less. *smile*

The product is Loving-kindness, Compassion, Joy and equanimity,

Hanzze

That could be called a worthy product. *smile* Is it just something subjective or does it effect others as well?

Jeffrey

If it affected others it would still be subjective. Of other subjects/persons.

Hanzze

So no effects on others? *smile*

Jeffrey

no you didn't understand me subjective does not mean solipsistic.. Affects on others would how you affect THEIR experience. However we *could* also say that THEIR experience is also subjective. Do you see? Jeffrey has a subjective experience and Hanzze has a subjective experience.

ddrishi

Whether long meditations sessions by monks give them any added benefit or they do it just as a matter of ritual? Whether they remain focussed on their breath throughout the meditation sessions? Any study or views on these issues?

Hanzze

no you didn't understand me subjective does not mean solipsistic.. Affects on others would how you affect THEIR experience. However we *could* also say that THEIR experience is also subjective. Do you see? Jeffrey has a subjective experience and Hanzze has a subjective experience.

You think like a theravadin *smile* Isn't there a interaction? It could be that you meditate like a yogi master and your wife is burning like hell because you have not done a single work in the household. So there would be a kind of imbalanced effect.

Jeffrey

Again I did not understand.

RobG

no you didn't understand me subjective does not mean solipsistic.. Affects on others would how you affect THEIR experience. However we *could* also say that THEIR experience is also subjective. Do you see? Jeffrey has a subjective experience and Hanzze has a subjective experience.

You think like a theravadin *smile* Isn't there a interaction? It could be that you meditate like a yogi master and your wife is burning like hell because you have not done a single work in the household. So there would be a kind of imbalanced effect.

I understand completely what both of you are saying. Hanzze -- there is no true objectivity, interaction or not. There is no such thing as an objective observation. Only things that appear to be objective.

As for significant others burning up... Last night my fiance (Also Buddhist) took off her ring and told me she was leaving me because my true passion is bodhicitta and she feels like our relationship gets in the way of my practice. I generally meditate sitting about two hours a day and mindfulness several more hours a day. I tried to tell her that is not the case, but the truth is that we are at different points and her needs in the relationship vs. my needs are very different. She still craves sex, desires constant affection, etc. and simply hasn't developed clear seeing into emptiness, so many afflictions. I don't crave these things that used to make me feel good about myself.

Melissa on the other hand possessed far greater compassion than me until recent breakthroughs in seeing my worst "enemies" as my mothers in past lives with the clarity of deep seeing, which was characterized by spontaneous faith in rebirth strong enough to constitute a major development. People grow differently. The goal is the same, to assist in attaining a state of collective awakening. Whether we are in a relationship or not we are still working for the same thing and part of the inseparable union which is far stronger than a flimsy piece of paper that fails to acknowledge the ever present process of change.

At least that's what I'm telling myself. Hopefully I will still talk to her often as I love her company and count her as a valuable member of my Sangha.

Or maybe she will even have a change of heart -- I'm holding out hope for that.

Hanzze

Great story, thanks for sharing and much patient, you could only lose inpatient (and if she kicks you hard, its just ripping karma *smile*)!

AMH

ahhh, well I think it depends on your life a lot. I can see a benefit to longer meditation however I have not ever had the life circumstance to do that. It is shorter practice and then returning to life often to keep working at it in practice. I think that the longer meditations would be something you would build up to and do consistently to avoid the issue like in exercise where you are a 'weekend warrior' and then ache the rest of the week.

driedleaf

It is the opposite of counter-productive because it will help you with your daily life.

Telly03

Even though I'm only up to 24 min periods (started at 10), I would imagine that it depends on the person as to when increasing time would not be productive... so many personal variables to consider

RobG

Thirty seconds of sustained concentration is more valuable than four hours of watching the mind wander from concept to concept. Rather than discussing the length of meditation in terms of what is or is not ideal, it would be more worthwhile to discuss means for improving the quality of meditation to the point where thirty spare seconds can be spent in deep absorption almost anywhere at any time. The resulting concentration of that thirty seconds can then be actively extended through mindfulness. Mindfulness is not just awareness of oneself, it is concentrated awareness. Initially this is developed by first gaining concentration, then sustaining it. So developing techniques for quickly and reliably attaining a relatively high degree of concentration are very valuable.

All this being said, I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have.

Jeffrey

Try 45 minutes.. Its doable you can stand up and stretch your legs in the middle

Daozen

Well that is a different livelihood.

Thanks, Captain Obvious!

Vajraheart

It helps to just build the practice length over a length of time, increasing slowly according to ones feeling and state of intent.

If you long for those experiences talked about in the texts or autobiographies of various yogi's, mahasiddhas and past adepts... you're going to want to delve deeply, for long periods of time, get through the dross... there are stages every yogi goes through though.

No big deal, it's just about what you want out of the field of your body? Sense pleasures or spiritual pleasures, or beeeeyooooond!!! (said with mystical echo, accompanied by ominous musical background of your choosing)

seeker242

Thirty seconds of sustained concentration is more valuable than four hours of watching the mind wander from concept to concept. .

Not necessarily IMO. There is a great deal to learn from just watching your thoughts wander from thing to thing. You're learning how the mind functions in real time. To see those things appear and disappear shows you what they are really made of, AKA nothing.

IMO