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Transexualism
Talisman
Veteran
What do you think would be the Buddhist stance on transexual or genderqueer people? Is it wrong to pursue change in one's body/form in order to match one's natural gender?
I know that such a change would be obviously impermanent, and there is no "self" in either one's form or sense of gender. I'm just curious what you folks think.
I know that such a change would be obviously impermanent, and there is no "self" in either one's form or sense of gender. I'm just curious what you folks think.
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But, as Jeffrey said, its a personal choice and its up to the person how far they want to go.
So what is born is not a "self into the wrong body." Instead, what is born are the aggregates, specifcally the form aggregate and mental formations aggregate are inconguent and a dysphoria occurs wherein the "person" feels like they have been born the wrong sex.
To me it's like if a child is born with a cleft lip or is intersex or disabled. There is no judgement against those who would pursue modern scientific and medical advancements in order to remedy these disorders. I think it's the same for transexual people. The dysphoria is a serious source of suffering and discontent which can be eased through the use of hormone replacement therapy and in some cases reassignment surgery.
Just think, 1/3 transexual people commit or have tried to commit suicide. And some 95% of transexual people feel more confident and happy about their bodies and minds after transitioning.
I knew a grad student who was doing research on the topic, mainly of Native LGBT people, and he always referred to it as "Third Gender" or "Two-Spirits" people. He had a lot of prestigious universities offering him scholarships for his "Third Gender Studies" research. That was a long time ago. I gladly stand corrected if there is another term that is current.
I will say it is difficult to deal with stigma. I always like the question: what do you do for a living? "oh I don't work, I have schizoaffective disorde". It isn't hard for me anymore because the truth is the truth and people kind of adjust to your truth. But for awhile it was hard to switch identities (from a university graduate student).
one of my exes now identifies as a man and i would never dream of telling him he cannot express himself in the way that he feels fit. i think the biggest issue is that it's hard to understand, but most trans/gq individuals will tell you that it is not a choice. being a lesbian, i can at least understand the way in which language fails us on these topics. you can never really put yourself in another's shoes, no matter how much you'd like to.
i suppose, if you want to think about the body modification aspect... could it really be any different than tattoos or piercings? or even working out...? (not for health reasons, but aesthetic reasons) isn't the root of all of these things the same? to make one's body more acceptable to ourselves?
I meant it is impermanent in the sense that I have not gone beyond death, and the body/form which I change is subject to illness, decay, and death.
If I had SRS it most definitely would be "permanent" lol
"You're a boy, right? You're happy being a boy, yeah?" (yeah....)
"You are completely, utterly and totally convinced you are a 100% bona-fide male, yes?" (yes....)
"You dress like a boy, you have interests compatible with those of most boys, you feel like a boy, and you know, absolutely, that you are a boy, yes?" (...right....)
"100% convinced?" (yup!)
"Sure about that?" (YES!!)
"Really?" (*sigh* yeees...)
"No way I can dissuade you?" (nope...)
"Ok. Now hold on to all of that - but imagine, every time you look in a mirror, you see a female. Long hair, breasts - the whole shebang.
completely, totally female.
That's what it's like to be a transsexual, who's in the 'wrong body'."
He was completely gobsmacked.
That made me tear up a little
There's no (fundamental) difference.
Now my view on buddhism is that it is an experiential exercise where we look inside ourselves and find the truth for ourselves. Obviously guidance from the teachings through satsang & masters etc is helpful. So bear with me as I use your dilemma to help me to come to a skillful solution for myself
I have always had a strong sex drive and have struggled with finding peace in myself when I have lived with partners who werent as strongly driven to physical intimacy. Meditation has been a means for me to explore this fully, seeing immense anger inside of me for 'having to repress' these feelings.
For me the answer for whether to work to liberate myself from this attachment (if thats what it is), is based on the answer to what is an 'acceptable' motivation for action in life and what is an attachment that should be liberated through meditation and other skilful actions.
The conclusion that I'm coming to is that there is no dividing line in answer to this or any other question of right & wrong. The truth is the truth inside each and every one of us and its different for each person. This came to me by comparing it to the question of where do I end and you begin? There is no clear line of distinction...
My personal answer is resolving itself into embracing my sexuality and from that basis I encourage you to enjoy yours
I understand wat ur saying but keep in mind that sexuality and gender are distinct phenomena.
Sex is ones bodily form, and gender is identification as male, female, or otherwise
They r not interchangable
"I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: 'The large, low-lying marsh' is a term for sensual pleasures. 'The large herd of deer' is a term for beings. 'The man not desiring their benefit, not desiring their welfare, not desiring their rest from bondage' is a term for Mara, the Evil One. 'The false path' is a term for the eightfold wrong path, i.e., wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration. 'The male decoy' is a term for passion & delight. 'The female decoy' is a term for ignorance. 'The man desiring their benefit, desiring their welfare, desiring their rest from bondage' is a term for the Tathagata, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. 'The safe, restful path that led to their rapture' is a term for the noble eightfold path, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration.
"So, monks, I have opened up the safe, restful path, closed off the false path, removed the male decoy, destroyed the female. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."
from Two Sorts of Thinking
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html
to exchange them is not the way *smile*
However I do think that that inner realisation (of what to do) should come from a non-attachment perspective. If I were to chase sexual fulfillment "because I've never had enough", or someone were to chase their gender goals "because I've always been repressed" then the choice is already certain and not necessarily based on good karma/skill/etc.
So let me refine my advice (to us both) yet again: find your own path based on non-attachment to any history, and live that path with non-attachment to any future!
"I will teach you a Dhamma discourse on bondage & lack of bondage. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"Yes, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said: "A woman attends inwardly to her feminine faculties, her feminine gestures, her feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voice, feminine charms. She is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, she attends outwardly to masculine faculties, masculine gestures, masculine manners, masculine poise, masculine desires, masculine voices, masculine charms. She is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, she wants to be bonded to what is outside her, wants whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Delighting, caught up in her femininity, a woman goes into bondage with reference to men. This is how a woman does not transcend her femininity.
"A man attends inwardly to his masculine faculties, masculine gestures, masculine manners, masculine poise, masculine desires, masculine voice, masculine charms. He is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, he attends outwardly to feminine faculties, feminine gestures, feminine manners, feminine poise, feminine desires, feminine voices, feminine charms. He is excited by that, delighted by that. Being excited & delighted by that, he wants to be bonded to what is outside him, wants whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Delighting, caught up in his masculinity, a man goes into bondage with reference to women. This is how a man does not transcend his masculinity.
"And how is there lack of bondage? A woman does not attend inwardly to her feminine faculties... feminine charms. She is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not attend outwardly to masculine faculties... masculine charms. She is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not want to be bonded to what is outside her, does not want whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Not delighting, not caught up in her femininity, a woman does not go into bondage with reference to men. This is how a woman transcends her femininity.
"A man does not attend inwardly to his masculine faculties... masculine charms. He is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not attend outwardly to feminine faculties... feminine charms. He is not excited by that, not delighted by that... does not want to be bonded to what is outside him, does not want whatever pleasure & happiness that arise based on that bond. Not delighting, not caught up in his masculinity, a man does not go into bondage with reference to women. This is how a man transcends his masculinity.
"This is how there is lack of bondage. And this is the Dhamma discourse on bondage & lack of bondage."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.048.than.html
*smile*
Its important to stay where and what you are (now), otherwise this sutta could be quite confusing.
Those that come into Buddhism later could still go through the process and get by quite well, undetected even. Some are open about it, and are accepted, just as gays are...btw many trans people are not gay either, despite that they are lumped into the LGBT box.
Many cultures accept such differences, the ladyboys of Asia, the Hawaiians, and so on. America (not nec. including Hawaii) is particularly close-minded and hateful on this topic, even though it's not new. Billy Tipton, a famous musician was discovered to have actually been a woman upon death. One of many.
Countries like Canada and the UK actually pay for SRS/hormones for their citizens. So I imagine their trans suicide rates are far less than US trans suicide rates are. We have a lot of catching up to do with the rest of the world on equal health rights, period.
@ZombieGirl, SRS is far different from tattoos and piercings, they are meant for decoration mostly - not always, such as post surgical tattooing. SRS is part of a psychological and physiological process to match ones outer self with ones inner self. As @Federica explained it's what that person sees themselves in the mirror as...usually from a very young age.
@Arn, transgenderism/transsexuality is not about ones sexuality (whom they are attracted to), or even sex for that matter. See my comment about about how people of trans experience are lumped in with the gay community. True, some are gay, that is attracted to the same sex even after having transitioned, but that is not always the case. I know a male to female transsexual who is in a lesbian relationship...with a Buddhist,incidentally. I know yet another who is straight, very sexy, and has many male admirers, most of whom have no idea she was not a "factory direct" woman.
The face that the media puts on the community is most often that of male to female, so that is what we mainly associate with, however now there is Chaz Bono who is sort of the face of the female to male. It's not easy being him, yet he forges on in the face of ignorance and hate with a radiant smile. Brave man.
So, in answer to @Talisman 's query, like anyone else compassion is the word. Even if you do not understand or agree, know that they are suffering until such time as they can do what they need to be right in their skin. NO, it's not going to make samsara go away, any more than being born in a factory direct body would, but it lessens the load some.
@Talisman, it would appear that you are very knowledgeable about this topic, and are also giving serious consideration to your Buddhism as well. Where the twain shall meet for you I do not know, however if it means having you around, alive, that's what counts. You will still be you, no matter what you look like, the heart does not change. I, for one, like *you*, sight unseen, and what you look like is of no concern to me.
Of course, you know what I look like :::laughs:::
Your words made my day
:clap:
ps: @Lincoln, can we get a hug emoticon? Kthanksbye :bowdown:
Gender Identity Disorder is a medical condition, thought to be caused by difference in the development of certain structures in the brain (structures which determine a person's gender identity). It is as if the brain has a map to the body, knowing where the parts are etc. but in a transsexual person, the map doesn't map to the correct body: it maps to one of the opposite gender. Hence the feeling of being "trapped in the wrong body".
We make a mistake if we, as non-transsexual people, interpret these words as just a bad feeling about our body, like feeling your nose is too big, or feeling your waist is too fat. I am given to understand that it is more a deep feeling of "wrongness", like Phantom Limb Syndrome in an amputee. The brain is telling the person they are one way, but the reality is quite another. It is deeply disturbing - suicide attempts are not uncommon. The feeling is that intolerable.
This is a medical condition, and if the person is really suffering from GID, the only treatment that has been shown to work is Gender Reassignment aka 'sex change'. However, not everyone who has gender dysphoria (= "unhappiness with ones gender") actually has GID. Some people are 'genderqueer' or intersex, or different in some way, and don't really have a strong identity with either gender. That's OK too. That is why counselling and psychiatric support is essential, followed by at least a year of living "in role", before taking the irreversible step of hormones and surgeries to change the outward appearance.
Having medical treatment to relieve the suffering caused by GID is not incompatible with Buddhism than taking antibiotics to treat an infection. The only controversy IMHO is that people don't understand transsexualism and make all sorts of assumptions about it.
Good synopsis. You have a good understanding of how it feels. It's like you're walking around in a costume that you can't take off.
@Hubris
Here's a recent photo of me. I look kind of silly in it, sorry. :P
Not too long ago(within the past 40 years) doctors were making decisions for families of intersex children by performing surgeries and giving hormones at a very young age. Then puberty would hit (or even before), and they did in fact have dysphoria, a sense of not feeling right somehow. They were betrayed by the medical community because they were not given a choice to see how it would turn out before action was taken. Dr. John Money was one.
As far as living in role for a year goes, standards have changed. Practitioners are now operating under an informed consent model to treat trans patients. Google WPATH if you are interested, its a much more realistic model for trans patients seeking treatment.
One more thing, I would tend to disagree with you that trans people are often asexual, at least not the ones I know. There are many who are celibate, and that often has to do with the fact that they have not had the complete surgeries because they are prohibitively expensive, and not covered by insurances. So since there are people who are so judgmental and hateful it's hard for them to find partners that either understand, or on the flip side do not fetishize them thereby objectifying them. People place a lot of stock in what's between someone's legs.
I hope this discussion is helping you some. @AdaB made an especially good point here:
"Having medical treatment to relieve the suffering caused by GID is not incompatible with Buddhism than taking antibiotics to treat an infection. The only controversy IMHO is that people don't understand transsexualism and make all sorts of assumptions about it."
Given the Dalai Lama's take on gay issues, I'd say Buddhism is inadequate to address such matters. It has not evolved with the times, it's a doctrine that's frozen in time. Of course, the core teachings still work. But some of the later elaborations and "commentaries" (interpretations) of what people believe the Buddha said aren't helpful.