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Is This or That "Okay?"
MindGate
United States Veteran
Now, before I start this thread, I'd like to point out that this is all my opinion and I'm not trying to enforce it with any iron fist or anything. I would just like to bring this subject to your attention. Please don't get offended or anything.
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I've seen many, many posts asking if, "Is X okay according to Buddhism?" or "Is it okay to do X in Buddhism?"
Many of the times that these questions are asked, people tend to response with kind-hearted answers on how these things are okay to do. For example: applying make-up, getting a sex change, having frivolous sex, smoking, etc.
I have a few issues with this:
1) You must define what "okay" means.
2) You must determine whether it is okay to really do (what an enlightened being would do), or what is ok for just lay people.
Let me give you an example:
1) Is applying make-up okay in Buddhism?
In Buddhism, we'll define okay as "in accordance to the Buddha's teachings of the middle way and non-attachment."
Then people typically say stuff like, "yes, putting make-up on moderately is perfectly acceptable in Buddhism."
For a monk, what is said above in incorrect. The Buddha directly taught against monks wearing make-up with the 8th precept. Now, of course lay followers don't have to follow this precept. Thus, saying applying make-up if perfectly fine in Buddhism would be incorrect. It is only correct if you are speaking DIRECTLY about lay followers. An enlightened being, most likely, would not apply make-up. Same goes with having frivolous sex, getting a sex change, smoking, ect. All these things are perfectly fine for LAY followers, but not for anyone beyond that.
This is why people seem to not understand me when I say, "These things are not acceptable in Buddhism." They are okay... for lay followers, but for a Buddha? Probably not.
----
I've seen many, many posts asking if, "Is X okay according to Buddhism?" or "Is it okay to do X in Buddhism?"
Many of the times that these questions are asked, people tend to response with kind-hearted answers on how these things are okay to do. For example: applying make-up, getting a sex change, having frivolous sex, smoking, etc.
I have a few issues with this:
1) You must define what "okay" means.
2) You must determine whether it is okay to really do (what an enlightened being would do), or what is ok for just lay people.
Let me give you an example:
1) Is applying make-up okay in Buddhism?
In Buddhism, we'll define okay as "in accordance to the Buddha's teachings of the middle way and non-attachment."
Then people typically say stuff like, "yes, putting make-up on moderately is perfectly acceptable in Buddhism."
For a monk, what is said above in incorrect. The Buddha directly taught against monks wearing make-up with the 8th precept. Now, of course lay followers don't have to follow this precept. Thus, saying applying make-up if perfectly fine in Buddhism would be incorrect. It is only correct if you are speaking DIRECTLY about lay followers. An enlightened being, most likely, would not apply make-up. Same goes with having frivolous sex, getting a sex change, smoking, ect. All these things are perfectly fine for LAY followers, but not for anyone beyond that.
This is why people seem to not understand me when I say, "These things are not acceptable in Buddhism." They are okay... for lay followers, but for a Buddha? Probably not.
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
It makes no sense for a dog, no sense for a woman, no sense for a Buddhist, no sense for a monk, no sense for a Buddha.
You would get old, sick and die in any way. But it need others to be harmed as well.
If you like to die beautiful, maybe it makes sense. *smile*
"ok for what?"
So my question back may be 'why?', is there a reason that you need to consider things like makeup or frivolous sex in your life? Do you feel truly in your heart that you should be doing these things or is is a leftover from previous life choices that you are changing but are still not comfortable with? And if we are to above all trust our experience more than any teaching why are you asking?
That sounds a little harsh to my ears, but maybe what i would say in lieu of giving an actual answer.
People grow when they feel like they're accepted as who they are, and therefore any changes they make are on their terms for results they wish for themselves... not because of rules, dogmatic need, or others' projections of what is best for them. Except maybe with children.
If someone asks if its ok to wear makeup in buddhism, what are they really asking? Is vanity lovable? Do they have to give up things they want? Is beauty an attachment? For many of us, I feel the practice becomes overcoming the habit of making solid formations surrounding what people should do, and keep our mind attuned with action and result just as Buddha did. That way people can become more alert to their life, without having to adopt another's set of moral rules.
So when you say perhaps you simply mean its not OK for a monk? Surely a buddha is free to do or not do as they chose?
For me, as a male lay buddhist living in a western society, perhaps putting on makeup would help me awaken to my attachment to the idea that men shouldnt wear makeup. For me, doing this may actually accelerate me along the path to enlightenment.
edit: @aMatt - I like that.
But your above statement is dealing with extremes.
A Buddha would never consider the question, let alone care one way or the other, because such a question - for a Buddha - is a no brainer.
As we don't get many Buddhas on this forum, the final part of your statement, is not relevant.
Your point that these things 'are not acceptable in Buddhism' is a sweeping statement. As we well know, the Buddha began most of his teachings with the word "Monks,....."
You would therefore need to quantify your statement with the additional comment of ..."if you happen to be a Buddhist Monk or Nun."
And these people would never actually ask that question anyway...
We are not Monks. The high majority of us are laypeople, living ordinary lives, striving (and in my case habitually failing) to adhere to the main Buddhist principles taught to us, in every branch of Buddhism: The 4, the 8 and the 5. With a few, pertinent, pithy suttas thrown in....
Your above statement is fraught with confusion.
Ok is a 'middle-of-the-road' approval.
It's neither absolutely acceptable, and nor is it a complete no-no.
So in fact, the answer to the question "Is it ok according to Buddhism, to...."
Would be to seek the person's motivation in asking the question, and encourage them to examine their own particular attachment to the focus of their question.
In the matter of transsexualism, it's a far more complex issue than can really be discussed to any definitive conclusion, because it's a matter of brain-wiring...
But in many other matters - make-up, tattoos, buying a more expensive car/house/yacht because you want one, or owning pets.... the motivation for such actions, would be the key.
So the answer to the question "Is it ok, according to Buddhism, to.....?"
would in all probability be another question:
"What's your motivation?"
I can really feel from you distaste for the aforementioned things, even if you have not come right out and said it. It shows. Either be honest about it, or hide it better. Passive-aggressive posts are not productive to anyone but you.
Of course, that is just *my* opinion, and may not be that of others here, and while I was not particularly offended by your post either, it touched on other threads that are controversial, and ostensibly touched a nerve in you, otherwise those exact things would not have been used an example in this thread. Moving on.
Monastics have their rules, and layfolks have theirs, the latter being more open to interpretation since they are not "required" to live a monastic set of values in a non-monastic setting. No one is a Buddha, that is why its called "practice"...even Buddha would probably tell you he was not a Buddha. Practice does not just stop there.
Hair,bald head,makeup,none...whatever. I bet every day that you get dressed its not in a monk's robe,or a uniform. Does that mean you are probably not a Buddhist if you are not wearing a robe? If so, you'd best get rid of those new Nike's, t shirt that was from a concert you enjoyed, and those broken-in jeans. Buddha may not approve, in your opinion, as you said. Also, shave your head.
Yes, I am probably being unskillful in calling you out not-so-gently,however I like to keep it honest. It is not my intention to offend either, I feel that everyone has a right to their views; right, wrong or in between.
That said, keep in mind this is a forum for New Buddhists, and not necessarily seasoned veterans. So people asking questions are trying to learn, or even just decide if they want to pursue the path.
Sometimes semantics can be difficult to navigate without offending at least one person (because they can not see your body language nor hear the intent in your voice), so to expect someone to offer definitions when they may not know exactly what they need is asking a lot.
People are patient with you all the time on this forum, the least you can do is be patient with those who come after.
If we are female gendered and looking in the mirror at a male body, there is a great opportunity to learn who we are and become settled with reality. Then we can change our body if we wish, just as we can add sugar to our cup of tea if it is bitter to our taste. It becoming a bigger issue for us is a product (of social conditioning), not a an inherent cause of confusion.
If someone were to say to me "I notice your shoelace is untied" there would be no confusion, as the method of overcoming the issue is known to me. If one becomes settled with the truth of what their body is, then the process of reconciling the issue is similarly peaceful and wise.
IMHO it is highly inappropriate to put 'sex change' in the same category as wearing make-up. Unless the question is "Should I wear make up to cover up my disfigurement?" which I'm sure you'd agree, is a very different question to the more typical, trivial version.
"Should I have a sex change?" should be considered at the same level as "Should I have a kidney transplant?". I know the media make it out to be a trivial, lifestyle choice, but believe me, I know many, many trans people and not one of them considered it a choice (I'm not trans myself, but have many close friends who are).
Unfortunately, the Buddha was unaware of modern technology for gender reassignment. He was also unaware of organ transplants, IVF, vasectomies, antibiotics and DNA testing. So we cannot answer questions definitively. We can only consider each situation on its merits, and discuss the relative wisdom, or otherwise, of pursuing the treatment. Remembering, always, that unless we are the patient, we cannot possibly know what it feels like to have to make that choice.
As a side note, the correct term is "Gender Reassignment Surgery" although more properly it should be called 'Sex Reassignment Surgery', as it is dealing with the physical sex of a person, not their social gender.
The post that I recently made regarding transexuality was meant to be a discussion. When I am going through things in my life that are challenging or confusing or scary, I reach out to those I trust and love for guidance and support. Formally, this could be called taking refuge.
So if you are suggesting that my taking refuge in the closest thing to a Sangha that I've got would not be advisable by the Buddha, I have to say you are dead wrong.
If you can't come to an open Buddhist discussion forum and talk about real life things, then all that you end up with is a bunch of REBIRTH threads and people spouting suttas.
Wrong, sirs and ma'ams.
Let my try to explain what I am saying again.
"Is putting on make-up okay?"
I'd say no, because its a hindrance - as shown through the 8th precept. If it wasn't a hindrance, why would their be a precept against it? This is what I am saying. It *is* a hindrance, like many things, so is this okay? Well, depending how far you actually want to go with Buddhism. Do you want to "just be happy" as a lay follower, or are you attempting to achieve enlightenment? If its the later, then you probably shouldn't do it. If you are not attempting to achieve enlightenment, then many of these things are okay. If you are, then many of these things are not.
Same goes for sex changes, I think. Now, I'll be honest with you guys and say I don't know much about this whole issue, but as I perceive it: its a wrong view to believe you a static "you" was "born" into the "wrong" body and that you should change this just to feel better about yourself. Again, is this okay? Well, depending how far you actually want to go with Buddhism. Do you want to "just be happy" as a lay follower, or are you attempting to achieve enlightenment? If its the later, then you probably shouldn't do it. Someone said it was a medical issue, though, but I have no idea about that. I know this is a touchy subject, much like homosexuality, but as I've said, I don't know much about it - so don't get all pissy with what I said like some of you are.
And again, its just my opinion. I'm not going to go all Westboro Baptist Church on you and tell you not to do stuff. You can do whatever you want - that's not up to me. You guys just ask, "Is so and so okay?" and I just tell you, "Depends on your definition of 'okay.'"
Is buying a big, fat cheese burger from McYucks okay in Buddhism? Probably not. What about wearing gold jewelry? Probably not. What about driving gas-guzzlings, fancy, expensive vehicles? Probably not. --- You see, I know these things are not really "good" according to Buddhism - although I'd do them anyways. But at least I know these are not "ultimately" good to do. I admit this to myself and don't pretend that its okay just for me because I am a lay follower. Just my opinion.
that alone is your pointer to whether or not something is okay.
now whether or not one suffers is totally based on the individuals conditioning or karma. but ultimately it all comes down to clinging/ignorance.
so how do we determine anything?
examine the mindstate. investigate. causality and the three marks will become obvious. then wisdom, then the compassion to let go.
morality and ethics in buddhism function so that we can see clearly into that nature of mind and reality. in doing so we actively engage in emulating the buddha then eventually realizing the inherent morality of existence itself.
which was no different than the emulation. surprise, surprise.
When one does what Bodhisattvas do, one is a Bodhisattva.
When one does what Arhats do, one is an Arhat.
When one does what ghosts do, one is a ghost.
These are all natural phenomena.
There are no shortcuts in cultivation.
Venerable Master Hsuan Hua
I have yet to see anyone's mind be significantly *changed* by participating in online forums. What usually happens is that the views one holds when one starts a thread are simply reinforced by seeing that thread grow.
I, for one, like to think of this forum as a place to process some rather conflicted thoughts. I've always been one to bounce my ideas off of people who may have some insight in to what I'm thinking.
Exactly!
As long as your intentions are positive and compassionate then you are doing okay-but to actually properly help the person in need, I guess you need a little background info to go along with.
Ajahn Brahm once said when he was a new monk that a girl was brought to his temple as she was VERY insecure about her nose, it being too big and stuff. He tried approaching it at a scientific level saying that it was not the biggest nose he had seen nor the smallest. In that case, it did not help, but the INTENTION was there, that is very important.
He goes on to state that sometimes being compassionte means saying nothing at all, merely being there and listening, accepting hugs and tears, which is damn true. So I guess it varies in every case Mr Mind Gate
MG: the "ok" questions are clearly for lay people, since we're lay people, like Fed said. People are trying to live by the precepts, and by the not-ego-grasping principle, so they wonder: is using makeup to cover my blemishes ego-grasping? This is a good question. And that person got a wide variety of answers. In an ideal world, we would be accepted the way we are, in our natural state, but the world is far from ideal. So, then what do we do? For this, they seek guidance.
Personally, I don't always give the Buddhistically-correct answer. As Ada-B said, some of these issued didn't exist in the Buddha's time. Interpreting the Buddha's teachings narrowly isn't helpful in such a case. Wisdom and compassion should be our guide, IMO. That, too, is Buddhism. And aMatt made a good point about delving deeper into the reasons for the person's question in order to be truly helpful and provide an answer most relevant to the concerns motivating the question.
I think someone mentioned that scripture-quoting is not always helpful in every case. Coming to a forum such as NewBuddhist is a means of gaining perspective, of looking at issues in a different light; not simply as we would interpret it on our own. For myself, sometimes when making a serious decision (or deciding how serious the decision actually is) I like to discuss it first. Simple as that.
Has it occurred to you that if you are getting such feedback from more than one person on a regular basis that perhaps you *are* coming across as self-righteous? Maybe it's not just us having preconceived notions.
Clearly you are an intelligent young man, who is seeking knowledge. We are offering that, and sometimes getting called out is a learning experience too. I offer you an anecdote:
When I was 18...long ago, I started hanging out in bars. I was having a great time for myself, too. There was this one particular bar I frequented, and I knew all the bartenders, and them me.
One day this bartender who was kind of churlish jumped my case, she said "you kids come in here, you're demanding, obnoxious, and you don't tip"...something along those lines. I was stunned. I felt guilty, because it never occurred to me that having fun was causing suffering for someone. Also, because no one ever told me, I had absolutely no idea I was supposed to tip my bartender. I was embarrassed, BUT you can rest assured that from that point on I did tip, probably overly much.
Years later I ran into her, and I said "you know, I would like to thank you." She looked at me sort of puzzled and I told her I was grateful for her admonishment, because I was completely naive as to bar etiquette, and in her doing so she made me a better person. Oddly enough, in her daytime life, she was a teacher. I never forgot that moment.
Also, as I mentioned, you specifically chose certain examples to enumerate in *this* thread, that are currently hot in others...ones that caused a visceral reaction in you, so of course it would lead one to think that you are addressing those things.
@AdaB I would like to suggest that the transsexual discussion be moved off this thread and back to the one that is already open.
@Talisman, yes, you are right.
In the other thread I just stated my opinion. I didn't tell anyone what to do or what not to do. They asked for advice/opinion, so I gave them mine.
This is what I said:
"My opinion: In a strictly Buddhist sense, I think, like many things are, it would be a form of attachment to want to/go through with getting a sex change. Just think - would a monk or even the Buddha have gotten a sex change if they believe they were born in the wrong body? Chances are, no, they wouldn't. Of course, its not a sin or anything like in Christianity - but a form of attachment none-the-less (I believe this specific topic falls into the category of wrong view. For example, it would involve believing that there is a static "you" which was "born" into the "wrong" body).
But, as Jeffrey said, its a personal choice and its up to the person how far they want to go."
C'mon now - you guys are going to attack me for saying THIS? I clearly stated it was my personal opinion, as uninformed as it is, and that I wasn't telling anyone what to do: its a personal choice.
Again, I feel the trap that mindgate might be stepping into is assuming that "is it ok" means "is it a quality of liberation." The goal of experienced practitioners isnt usually to give moral direction, however, but to help others become more alert... where decisions become less cloudy. When adults are told what to do, they often renounce any advice to preserve their autonomy.
Consider reading Lincoln's observations carefully, as they seem pretty well targetted... as well as a fair assesment of your tone.
Was I saying, "You can't do this."
No.
What I saying, "Buddhism doesn't allow this."
No.
I was saying that, like many other things (eating fatty cheeseburgers, having lots of frivolous sex, wearing extravagant things, etc), most likely it would be a hindrance to go ahead and have a sex change. How ***I*** see it is, if someone is uncomfortable with what body they have - the Buddha typically teaches just to accept things as how they are - and not to try and change them so much. Of course, its just my opinion and has no bearing on whether not you or any of you do. Same thing with eating sugary, fatty foods. Yes, they're bad for you, indulgent, and the process to get the meat causes suffering for the animals. This is not okay in Buddhism. - But I do it anyways. I'm not saying I'm above the teachings, trust me. I'm just saying what I perceive the teachings to actually be saying - but I am not telling you what you should do.
This is how these conversations seem to be going, which I think it needs to be stopped:
Person: "Do you think its a good idea to buy this really expensive, gas-guzzling car that I may not be able to pay off?"
Me: "No. *gives reasons why not to buy the car*"
Person: "Why would you say that?! You know nothing about cars or money you can't drive!"
Me: "You asked for my opinion."
Person: "You should be more compassionate!"
Of course, this is just an example and you can't really compare a sex change to buying a car accurately.
We are all attached to our bodies - we all have a natural survival instinct and the desire to 'fit in' with other people. Fortunately most of us do not need heroic medical interventions to achieve it. Perhaps when we are enlightened, we will cease all attachment to the body, but that is not where most of us are.
In the meantime, this is about suffering and the relief of suffering. The reason I am criticising you for saying this (not attacking you) is that you are using an inappropriate example, about which you know nothing, in a way that is hurtful to people going through the problem. Just saying it's "personal opinion" does not make it OK, if your personal opinion is based on absolutely no knowledge or experience.
I do know people (good friends) for whom this is a deeply personal and important issue. They are sensitive and easily hurt, but I would never criticise people who are going through something I'll never have to go through, for how they deal with it. I just try to show compassion and remember that you cannot understand someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.
And again, you assume I'm criticizing people. Damnit, I'm not.
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"Perhaps when we are enlightened, we will cease all attachment to the body, but that is not where most of us are."
I thought that our goal was enlightenment, eh?
I'm not against people getting a sex change. Just like I'm not against homosexuality. etc etc Really, I'm not, I swear to you. More power to you. You guys just asked for the Buddhist opinion on it, and I gave you my personal interpretation of such (thus, opinion, per se).
I know quite a bit about Buddhist practice and belief and obviously I have worked out my own feelings and opinions regarding many topics including the one I brought up. Getting some outside perspective can be really useful though. I really didn't want my question to bring about so much contention.
We should all get along.
My personal, non-Buddhist opinion of sex changes is: go for it. That may be a bit of a hard life to live, though, especially if one wants to have sexual relationships with people. Some people may act badly to knowing that their partner was one another gender. Other people may not act that way at all, though. Ultimately, its up to the person to choose and weigh their options accordingly. I'm all for it if you or anyone else wants to do it. I just gave my opinion/interpretation on Buddhist teachings in regards to this subject, as I believe thats what you asked for.
My Buddhist opinion on it is what I said before in the other thread.
Take a moment to laugh along with me!
Then take a deep breath and carry on. It's all good.
I do listen to others' criticisms, and compliments for that matter. Additionally I posted that not having seen YOUR comment, it must have been being made around the same time. I also said that it was solely MY opinion. Additionally, in a later post I apologized to MG because I felt maybe I had been a bit hard on him. Please tell me how that makes me a hypocrite.
As far as the person who made a comment regarding my user name of Hubris, you may not have been privy to why I chose it. There is a thread on user names, and I explain it there if you'd care to have a look.
So, I will again apologize @MindGate if you are feeling offended,attacked, or the like. All I did was offer my opinion, from my point of view. I never claimed to be right.
I don't wish to be critical, as I understand the essential content of what you're saying, but you seem flabbergasted at some of the responses.
If you'd like to link it, I would love to read your reasoning for it. I post from my phone so digging up past threads is troublesome. I didn't mean that as our friend "Hubris" you embody or are stuck in hubris in any way... just a silly word play I didn't sense would become painful. The notion is just that prideful arrogence in our head often causes us to project judgements onto the heartfelt, rather than embrace and work skillfully with what is really being said or intended.
With warmth,
Matt