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A _very_ newbie question... vegetarianism

queristquerist Explorer
edited May 2010 in Buddhism Basics
... from a very newbie.

I have what may seem to be an odd question, and if this were slashdot it would start a flamefest of epic proportions... but here I expect a much more serene response.

This will make sense in a minute... you will learn that I tend to talk in circles, laying a foundation and then getting to the point...

There are two people in my life who both have a very profound and positive influence, and both are Buddhists. One is my dissertation advisor and the other is a dear and cherished friend. My advisor is a vegetarian (and I suspect a vegan), while my dear friend is a "Pure Land" (Jodo Shinshu) Buddhist, and eats fish and other such things.

I am, naturally, confused. I even profusely apologized to my friend after asking her questions about sashimi (Japanese prepared raw fish) and sushi after I learned that she was a Buddhist for fear of having offended her, but she reassured me that there was no offense.

Could some of you kind souls please help me understand what is happening here? I was under the impression that Buddhists, in general, were vegetarians.

I appreciate your help and assistance in this matter, good people.

This is my only sangha (I live in the "buckle of the Bible belt", after all)

Thank you.

-glyn

Comments

  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited February 2006
    It really depends on what tradition of Buddhism you're talking about. I'm a Tibetan Buddhist, and we eat meat of any kind. Other Buddhists, like most Zen Buddhists, Theravadan Buddhists, etc., are vegetarian. Others, like your friend, fall somewhere in between. So you can't make a blanket statement. From the Vajrayana (i.e. Tibetan Buddhist) point of view, it's all empty phenomena, so whether you eat meat or not, it's all the same essentially. Another reason that we eat meat is to make connections with the sentient beings who are being eaten. When we eat meat (or anything, actually), we also make the prayer that in the future the connection we have made with this being will ripen into a precious human rebirth where the being can study the Dharma and, hopefully, attain enlightenment, and since the connection is with us personally, we pray that we may attain enlightenment so that we can be of true benefit to this being. That's not to say one way is better than another. There are different types of Buddhism to fit the different types of students.

    Palzang
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited February 2006
    glyn,

    The quick answer is that some traditions simply practice differently than others. Some traditions have different Vinayas (monastic rules) than others, or in certain other cases, some traditions have merely done away with them all together. It all depends on what tradition you are talking about. If you would like, here is a link to what I wrote concerning the Theravada tradition in particular: Post #11.

    :)

    Jason
  • queristquerist Explorer
    edited February 2006
    Palzang wrote:
    It really depends on what tradition of Buddhism you're talking about. I'm a Tibetan Buddhist, and we eat meat of any kind. Other Buddhists, like most Zen Buddhists, Theravadan Buddhists, etc., are vegetarian. Others, like your friend, fall somewhere in between. So you can't make a blanket statement. From the Vajrayana (i.e. Tibetan Buddhist) point of view, it's all empty phenomena, so whether you eat meat or not, it's all the same essentially. Another reason that we eat meat is to make connections with the sentient beings who are being eaten. When we eat meat (or anything, actually), we also make the prayer that in the future the connection we have made with this being will ripen into a precious human rebirth where the being can study the Dharma and, hopefully, attain enlightenment, and since the connection is with us personally, we pray that we may attain enlightenment so that we can be of true benefit to this being. That's not to say one way is better than another. There are different types of Buddhism to fit the different types of students.

    Palzang


    Thank you, Palzang. I have once again clearly displayed my ignorance of Buddhism and the Dharma. I appreciate your assistance in setting me straight.

    Jodo Shinshu Buddhism speaks of needing the help of others to seek Dharma. This on-line sangha has shown me how that works. Thank you.

    -glyn
  • queristquerist Explorer
    edited February 2006
    Elohim wrote:
    glyn,

    The quick answer is that some traditions simply practice differently than others. Some traditions have different Vinayas (monastic rules) than others, or in certain other cases, some traditions have merely done away with them all together. It all depends on what tradition you are talking about. If you would like, here is a link to what I wrote concerning the Theravada tradition in particular: Post #11.

    :)

    Jason

    Jason,

    Thank you for that information and for directing me to that informative discourse on the Theravada tradition. It is so nice to find a place where ignorance is understood as simply a lack of information, and not decried as some form of horrid sin.

    I wonder how different this country (The USA) would be if it were founded as a Buddhist nation rather than a "Christian" one.

    -glyn
  • zenmonk_genryuzenmonk_genryu
    edited February 2006
    querist wrote:
    I wonder how different this country (The USA) would be if it were founded as a Buddhist nation rather than a "Christian" one.

    -glyn


    Glyn, if it were so, perhaps we would be more concerned about what comes out of our mouths, as opposed to what goes in them.
  • TreebeardTreebeard
    edited March 2006
    Hi querist. I'm by no means any master, but I thought I'd add a few things. First, the buddha never actaully forbade non-monks from eating meat, but simply advised it as a good step on the path of compassion. He also said that when we attain a certain level of compassion we will no longer have the desire to eat meat. Second thing, don't be so worried about offending us! :) People of theistic religions generally get so offended from having their beliefs questioned because they've been conditioned under a dogmatic system of great punishment or reward. The buddha taught us to question everything, even him! Blind faith is not what's encouraged, rather we are given the guidance to find the results for ourselves.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2006
    I love this forum...the words 'huff', 'miffed' and 'you little pipsqueak' are never heard...!! :lol:

    Lovely answers guys...
    and I think ZM's opinion could be spread a lot more globally than America..... ;)
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited March 2006
    querist wrote:
    Jason,

    .........[edit].....................

    I wonder how different this country (The USA) would be if it were founded as a Buddhist nation rather than a "Christian" one.

    -glyn

    I've often wondered what would have happened if the USA had been founded as a Christian nation rather than a theist, trading alliance. As a Buddhist nation, I doubt whether there would have been all the confusing and philosophically dubious stuff about "rights".
  • buddhafootbuddhafoot Veteran
    edited March 2006
    zenmonk_genryu wrote:
    Glyn, if it were so, perhaps we would be more concerned about what comes out of our mouths, as opposed to what goes in them.

    Good point, ZM.

    -bf
  • stevejstevej
    edited March 2010
    Palzang wrote: »
    It really depends on what tradition of Buddhism you're talking about. I'm a Tibetan Buddhist, and we eat meat of any kind. Other Buddhists, like most Zen Buddhists, Theravadan Buddhists, etc., are vegetarian. Others, like your friend, fall somewhere in between. So you can't make a blanket statement. From the Vajrayana (i.e. Tibetan Buddhist) point of view, it's all empty phenomena, so whether you eat meat or not, it's all the same essentially. Another reason that we eat meat is to make connections with the sentient beings who are being eaten. When we eat meat (or anything, actually), we also make the prayer that in the future the connection we have made with this being will ripen into a precious human rebirth where the being can study the Dharma and, hopefully, attain enlightenment, and since the connection is with us personally, we pray that we may attain enlightenment so that we can be of true benefit to this being. That's not to say one way is better than another. There are different types of Buddhism to fit the different types of students.

    Palzang

    In line with what Palzang has stated, I thought reading this article may help. http://ezinearticles.com/?Liberating-Animals,-Part-2---Whats-the-Difference-Between-Shakyamuni-Eating-Meat-vs-Me-Eating-Meat?&id=3874004

    It is our own practice to decide - eat meat or not and is our motivation sincere or are we using it as a reason to self indulge. Knowing my own indulgence (loveesss food of all sorts) to avoid being sneaky, I decided to stop eating meat completely. I find myself more at peace regarding this matter as i do not need to wonder if i'm being sneaky or not. After awhile, i actually don't think of eating meat as much anymore and feels happier as i have not participated in or being the cause for any killing.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited March 2010
    [quote=querist;23704Could some of you kind souls please help me understand what is happening here? I was under the impression that Buddhists, in general, were vegetarians.
    [/quote]

    Buddhists aim to develop wisdom and compassion. Is it compassionate to get other people to slaughter animals so we can satisfy our craving for meat? I somehow doubt it.

    P

    PS don't eat tuna - they're my friends!:lol:
  • sukhitasukhita
    edited March 2010
    porpoise wrote: »
    ... Is it compassionate to get other people to slaughter animals so we can satisfy our craving for meat? I somehow doubt it.

    Is it compassionate to get other people to kill and poison rodents and pests on farms so we can satisfy our craving for grains and vegetable?

    ;)
  • jinzangjinzang Veteran
    edited March 2010
    I'm a Tibetan Buddhist, and we eat meat of any kind.

    Well, not all Tibetan Buddhists.
  • ShutokuShutoku Veteran
    edited May 2010
    I am Jodo Shinshu myself and personally I eat poultry and seafood, but not pork or red meat. (I was vegetarian for a couple years but fell ill due to a lack of B vitamins and protein) However most Jodo Shinshu people have no such restrictions and eat meat.
    I'm providing an answer to the best of my knowledge not in judgment or justification, only as an explanation.

    In the Shin tradition there are two reasons for vegetarianism is not required...and in fact is relatively rare.
    1. Jodo Shinshu is a tradtition where we accept that we are foolish beings filled with blind passion and utterly unable to attain enlightenment on our own. Therefore we rely wholey on the compassion of Amida Buddha for our attaining enlightenment. We can choose to do good acts, and in fact are encouraged to, but not with any thought of merit accumulation, or working for our own attainment of enlightenment.

    2. Japan, being an island nation, many people earned their living with fishing, and thus fishermen were not permitted to hear the Dharma in many temples. Shinran however felt the Dharma should be available to everyone, vegetarians and meat eaters, farmers and fishermen, men and women, celibate and non-celibate, scholars and the illiterate.

    Our teaching says that Amida's compassion is for everyone, and in fact especially for those so filled with blind passion that they are unable to attain enlightenment on their own self power. Meat eaters and vegetarians alike can all attain birth in the Pure Land.
    So for Jodo Shinshu practitioners, the choice to be veggie or not is not a religious matter at all, simply a choice one makes for oneself (or for the animals)
  • RainRain
    edited May 2010
    Vegetarianism is not a religious choice, but rather a personal one. I can only speak for myself, and not everyone, as a result.

    I have no sect of Buddhism to which I identify; I do eat meat, and I always will. I strongly believe the food chain is a natural and normal construct. Animals eat other animals, a coyote would not dine on a salad of wild greens, but of course a coyote is not designed to do so either which I recognize. Humans were manufactured biologically to eat both meat and plant matter.

    Eating only one or the other (only meat or only plant matter, I do not single out vegetarianism here) can in fact lead to nutritional issues without paying close attention to what you consume in order to have all the proper nutrients (paying close attention to extra vitamins, or to the eating of foods which will specifically make up for the nutrients you lack).

    In a way, our bodies are a beautiful balance in and of themselves, in this manner. In my own personal opinion, choosing only one or the other throws off that balance, or causes us to have to concentrate overtly on making sure our bodies remain in a healthy balance despite our choices. It just has never made a lot of sense to me to choose "sides" when it comes to food. I eat, plain and simple, and I am thankful for what I eat, be it any type of matter.

    But we do have a biological design, and the technology, through which we are able to make a choice.

    That choice is purely a personal one, and as long as we all respect each other's choices, there is no issue at all. Issues only arise when one person, or group of people, chooses to downplay the life choices of another. This is problematic no matter which subject matter you choose to discuss.
  • RainRain
    edited May 2010
    OH, by the way.. .to the OP: This isn't a "very newbie" question at all :) You might find comfort in the fact that this question is hotly debated amongst long-time practitioners still to this day.

    A debate that is needless in my opinion, but to each their own :D
  • BaileyDBaileyD Explorer
    edited May 2010
    I like meat, it goes well with my beer. :D
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2010
    Rain wrote: »
    OH, by the way.. .to the OP: This isn't a "very newbie" question at all :)

    Have you seen the date of the OP?
    It's not such a newbie thread either!
    I love how things get resurrected now and then...... :)
  • RainRain
    edited May 2010
    federica wrote: »
    Have you seen the date of the OP?
    It's not such a newbie thread either!
    I love how things get resurrected now and then...... :)

    Why does this matter? :) The question has not expired, just because the date on the thread is a little bit older :)

    Namaste!
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited May 2010
    OH, by the way.. .to the OP: This isn't a "very newbie" question at all
    Rain wrote: »
    Why does this matter? :) The question has not expired, just because the date on the thread is a little bit older :)

    Namaste!

    querist - Last Activity: 10-08-2007

    Querist is a bit past his expiration date, though. :p
  • RainRain
    edited May 2010
    Again, my point stands! The question has not expired. Who knows who might get an answer to their question in passing by seeing this thread :)

    I didn't realize we were only supposed to respond to posts if they could be proven posted by active OPs. My bad (that I'll continue to commit) ;)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2010
    Rain wrote: »
    Why does this matter? :) The question has not expired, just because the date on the thread is a little bit older :)

    Namaste!
    I'm not saying it necessarily matters, and the question itself is always around.....but a glance would tell you that the OP hasn't been around for a long time. therefore addressing a reply to the OP directly would not evince a response to you from them, if perhaps that's what you might have been expecting. . Your post is completely valid. Addressing it to the OP may not be directly productive.
    That was all.....:)
  • PalzangPalzang Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Oh, don't rain on Rain's parade! (sorry, couldn't help myself)

    Palzang
  • RainRain
    edited May 2010
    *giggle*
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited May 2010
    sukhita wrote: »
    Is it compassionate to get other people to kill and poison rodents and pests on farms so we can satisfy our craving for grains and vegetable?

    ;)

    Organic farms don't do that.;)

    It is true that the Buddha did not forbid laypersons from eating meat. But then again, the Buddha never saw what happens on a modern, mass producing factory farm... What would he have to say about the modern farming methods we use today?

    And there were no such things as supermarkets back then either. Lots of people did not have a choice when it came to what they ate or didn't eat. Whereas today we have thousands of choices at the supermarkets of today.
  • SimonthepilgrimSimonthepilgrim Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Off topic:

    I see that you are in Florida, Seeker242. My thoughts and prayers are with you and yours, together with the whole ecosphere there at this terrible moment.
  • queristquerist Explorer
    edited May 2010
    Rain wrote: »
    OH, by the way.. .to the OP: This isn't a "very newbie" question at all :) You might find comfort in the fact that this question is hotly debated amongst long-time practitioners still to this day.

    A debate that is needless in my opinion, but to each their own :D

    Thank you for your insight into this, and for your responses which are the reason I am back on this forum. :-)

    -querist (the OP, in case others can't see the origin of this thread).
  • queristquerist Explorer
    edited May 2010
    federica wrote: »
    I'm not saying it necessarily matters, and the question itself is always around.....but a glance would tell you that the OP hasn't been around for a long time. therefore addressing a reply to the OP directly would not evince a response to you from them, if perhaps that's what you might have been expecting. . Your post is completely valid. Addressing it to the OP may not be directly productive.
    That was all.....:)

    Hi Federica,

    I am glad that someone did reply to my post, though, because that is why I'm back here now. So, while under normal circumstances your reasoning may have been correct, in this case, Rain addressing the OP did, in fact, elicit a response from the OP. :-)
  • queristquerist Explorer
    edited May 2010
    o0Mundus-Vult-Decipi0o wrote: »
    querist - Last Activity: 10-08-2007

    Querist is a bit past his expiration date, though. :p

    Nope... I'm still around, graduated with that Ph.D., and trying to get my life in order. Just came back from Thailand, too.
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Thread subscription eh! Sneaky bastard.
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited May 2010
    You like vegetarianism threads, don't you mundus? :p
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Nope, don't taste like chicken. :downhand::nonono:
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited May 2010
    That's pretty much what I meant :rolleyes:
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited May 2010
    You take vegetarianism threads, chop them like vegetables and add them to your chicken soup
    :lol:
  • ValtielValtiel Veteran
    edited May 2010
    Were my ninja moves which you refer to so swift that even I cannot find them in this Thread? :confused::wtf::-/:hohum::p
  • DeshyDeshy Veteran
    edited May 2010
    lol, I'm just kidding. :p
  • purpleparadoxpurpleparadox
    edited May 2010
    I'm just happy someone asked this question so I didn't have to - I was rather curious about this myself. I'm borderline vegetarian - I eat chicken and fish, but not very often. I don't eat red meat - part due to choice, part due to the fact that my body just can't process it without me getting some serious stomach issues. :-\ But yeah, I'm glad to see the answers to this question. :)
  • queristquerist Explorer
    edited May 2010
    Purple Paradox, one thing I have discovered here is that you may ask pretty much any question and be treated with respect and dignity. Those who are regulars here are kind and helpful people.
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