Thinking of combining Christianity and Buddhism.

DaltheJigsaw

Thinking of combining Christianity and Buddhism.
Been debating if I should combine Christianity with Buddhism.
I think both Religions have interesting things to say.
Using meditation to understand the Christian part.
Maybe even back to my roots Judaism as well.

Cloud

The real question is... what do you want from Buddhism, and what do you want from Christianity? What's the purpose of following them or combining the two of them?

The answer should be the foundation of how you decide to proceed.

DaltheJigsaw

Well, they both work off one another.
Not the faith, but the understanding the core of them both.
The basics of them both.

Cloud

How do you mean?

DaltheJigsaw

How do you mean?

The early Christianity. Before it was all misinterpreted or messed with. Like Buddhism. Go to the core of both of these Religions. Studying it through experience.

Tosh

Interesting and this is nothing new. If you read some of Elaine Pagels stuff, she says the early Christian church was Gnostic; mystical; like Buddhism. Then the Romans came along, tinkered with it, and voilà; you have today's Christianity.

And lots of people reckon Jesus was a Buddhist too (though I suspect that these people are Buddhists mostly).

Some reading I would recommend are the following:

This is a very humorous, irreverent, yet intelligent book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gospel-Second-Coming-Timothy-Freke/dp/1401915523/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1320399262&sr=8-3-fkmr0

Elaine Pagels: A more educated look at Gnostic Christianity:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0753821141/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320399319&sr=1-1

I think Buddhism and Christianity are compatible, but I think it helps to understand Gnostic Christianity to see the fit.

Floating_Abu

Two shovels in a hole..

Tosh

Two shovels in a hole..

If it's a big roomy hole, the hole will get dug faster!

genkaku

@LeonBasin -- Go ahead and believe whatever you want. Mix and match. Take a little of this and a little of that. Knead and sweat, toil and fret. Wax wise as a true believer.

But when you get tired of it all, just find a practice and actually practice it with real courage and real determination and real patience. Experience trumps belief and your experience, if you honor it instead of toying with it, will take you home.

zidangus

Christianity, Buddhism ..., at the end of the day they are just labels. Its attitudes/intentions/actions basically putting the teachings into practice that matter. I think that the practices of Christianity and Buddhism have a lot in common, especially from a lay perspective, and if you can take the best of both them in your practice then you will surely benefit, it can certainly do you no harm.

DaltheJigsaw

Interesting and this is nothing new. If you read some of Elaine Pagels stuff, she says the early Christian church was Gnostic; mystical; like Buddhism. Then the Romans came along, tinkered with it, and voilà; you have today's Christianity.

And lots of people reckon Jesus was a Buddhist too (though I suspect that these people are Buddhists mostly).

Some reading I would recommend are the following:

This is a very humorous, irreverent, yet intelligent book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gospel-Second-Coming-Timothy-Freke/dp/1401915523/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1320399262&sr=8-3-fkmr0

Elaine Pagels: A more educated look at Gnostic Christianity:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0753821141/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320399319&sr=1-1

I think Buddhism and Christianity are compatible, but I think it helps to understand Gnostic Christianity to see the fit.

Yea, I been reading/hearing/researching that he went to the East and he practice meditation.
I also like Christianity for it's community.
And yes, earlier Christianity was about Mysticism and such. Same with Judaism.
I was born Ukrainian, Russian Jew!:) Now, I been following Buddhism. I have followed Christianity when I was younger, but was not aware of it. Also I studied Occult, Esoteric and the Quran. All are coming to the same conclusion. Thank you for this!

DaltheJigsaw

@LeonBasin -- Go ahead and believe whatever you want. Mix and match. Take a little of this and a little of that. Knead and sweat, toil and fret. Wax wise as a true believer.

But when you get tired of it all, just find a practice and actually practice it with real courage and real determination and real patience. Experience trumps belief and your experience, if you honor it instead of toying with it, will take you home.

You are making great points!
Thank You!
I should just shut the heck up and sit.
I guess I am being lazy, or just making excuses for the basic/simpler stuff?
Trying to dress it all up?
Ahh, what can I say... I am "young." Lol.
Thank you all!

DaltheJigsaw

Christianity, Buddhism ..., at the end of the day they are just labels. Its attitudes/intentions/actions basically putting the teachings into practice that matter. I think that the practices of Christianity and Buddhism have a lot in common, especially from a lay perspective, and if you can take the best of both them in your practice then you will surely benefit, it can certainly do you no harm.

Thank you!:)

Cloud

I'd just be interesting in knowing what, in a nutshell, the core teachings of old Christianity are. That would help to see how old Christianity's teachings compare with Buddhism.

The core components of Buddhism are compassion and wisdom (leading to liberation). The core components of modern-day Christianity seem to be surrender to the will of God and personal salvation through faith in Jesus Christ (though Jesus' own teachings do have the element of compassion).

genkaku

I'd just be interesting in knowing what, in a nutshell, the core teachings of old Christianity are. That would help to see how old Christianity's teachings compare with Buddhism.

The core components of Buddhism are compassion and wisdom (leading to liberation). The core components of modern-day Christianity seem to be surrender to the will of God and personal salvation through faith in Jesus Christ (though Jesus' own teachings do have the element of compassion).

@cloud -- Not to get too nit-picky, but I would have thought compassion and wisdom ARE liberation rather than somehow 'leading to' it.

Cloud

Yeah that's nit-picky. I guess you could call liberation "ultimate wisdom", but the path is the cultivation of compassion and wisdom leading up to it. There are many insights prior to full release. Aaaaanyway, let's not get off-track, I do really want to know what the core teachings of old Christianity are.

DaltheJigsaw

I'd just be interesting in knowing what, in a nutshell, the core teachings of old Christianity are. That would help to see how old Christianity's teachings compare with Buddhism.

The core components of Buddhism are compassion and wisdom (leading to liberation). The core components of modern-day Christianity seem to be surrender to the will of God and personal salvation through faith in Jesus Christ (though Jesus' own teachings do have the element of compassion).

Start here: http://sacred-texts.com/chr/index.htm

DaltheJigsaw

Here: http://www.earlychristians.org/
Maybe here: http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm (Different point of view).
Maybe here as well: http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/early-christian-beliefs/

zidangus

Here is also an interesting article I found on Buddhism and different religions from a group of people who mix Buddhism and Christianity also.


http://buddhist-christian.org/articles/0905aw.html

SattvaPaul

Have you heard of Willigis Jager? He's a Zen roshi and a Benedictine monk:

http://www.spiritualwarriorstoday.com/Biography/biography-287_father-willigis-jager-roshi-1925

Of course the pope doesn't like it:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_17_38/ai_84092217/ (edit: this seems to have happened when Ratzinger was still a cardinal)

Cloud

@LeonBasin
What are the basics to you, in your own words, that complement/agree with Buddhism? That's all I wanted to know, without following a buncha links or anything. Your perspective is what's important, and if you're serious about combining religions I assume the basics of old Christianity are easy enough to talk about (without links).

DaltheJigsaw

@LeonBasin
What are the basics to you, in your own words, that complement/agree with Buddhism? That's all I wanted to know, without following a buncha links or anything. Your perspective is what's important, and if you're serious about combining religions I assume the basics of old Christianity are easy enough to talk about (without links).

Compassion, love, understanding, patients and so on. All of the human emotions.
Thank you!

Floating_Abu

Two shovels in a hole..

If it's a big roomy hole, the hole will get dug faster!

Or one could mix up shovel and elbow

Ouch !

Dakini

I think there are similarities to the mystical side of Christianity and Judaism on the one hand, and Buddhism on the other. Well, and Sufism, too. I think it's fascinating to explore that, so, go for it, Leon, if that's what you want. Early Christianity and Judaism included a belief in reincarnation.

I'm a huge Elaine Pagels fan, but I've been reading about the Gnostics lately, and they were a lot wilder than she describes them. Some of the sects, anyway. Some had tantric elements. Some of them were celibate, but others were ... not. :rolleyes: Mysticism can lead to extremes. When you believe people have a direct line to the Divine, they can conjure up all kinds of Divinely revealed texts, or interpretations of Biblical passages to justify weird stuff.

But still, a very intriguing topic. A way to integrate with Buddhism the various aspects of your heritage. Why not? Just remember to keep meditating. That's a common thread in all those traditions.

Dakini

@Cloud, et al. The basic belief of the Gnostics was that the world was created not by God but by the demiurge, and so was a place of suffering. They believed it was wrong to bring new souls into the world, so different Gnostic sects developed different ways to avoid childbirth. A good book on this is Benjamin Walker's "Gnosticism", available from Amazon. More than you ever really wanted to know about Gnosticism. Pagels is probably the best place to start.

@nobody in particular -- I do believe Jesus went East during the "lost years" of his youth, and possibly after surviving the Crucifixion, if he did survive it. It was common for people to go East with the trade caravans. Walker claims Gnostic Christians spread Gnosticism throughout the mid-East and into Central Asia in the centuries after the Crucifixion. Thomas ministered to Jews in India after the Crucifixion, and according to Pagels and others, he was a Gnostic.

Some say Jesus learned Gnostic-like teachings (the Essenes had some similar beliefs and practices to later Gnostics, and Jesus was an Essene) that filtered into Judaism from the Isis cult in Egypt. It might be interesting to check out the Essenes, Leon.

Enjoy your explorations. Cool stuff.

compassionate_warrior

Uh-oh! One of my all-time favorite topics! I can't resist. Everyone who is tired of this topic, or doesn't buy the story can tune out this post.

@Leon I just got turned onto a book by a Hindu Vedanta teacher who travelled to Kashmir and Tibet after spending 20+ years teaching in the US and Canada. He came across the "Jesus texts" at Hemis Monastery in Ladakh, and writes about the texts extensively in this book: Journey Into Kashmir and Tibet, by Swami Abhedananda. This was back in 1921 or so. And as you know (if you've been following my sporadic posts on this subject), Nicholas Roerich and his son, George, a Harvard scholar in Oriental languages, found the same texts, translated them, and reported on them in US newspapers.

I've always found the Russian Orthodox Church to have a mystical side, but maybe you're not to keen on the Orthodox Church. heh, probably not. I can't really get behind the divinity of Jesus, but the choral singing is inspiring in its own way. Certainly more so than the Tibetan monastic droning. So be eclectic. Whatever works. Whatever pushes your spirituality buttons.

SattvaPaul

Isn't there supposed to be the tomb of Jesus in Kashmir?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Bal

I also find Orthodox Church interesting. And the chants are so captivating. Once when I was in Ukraine I visited a small church. People would come in and light small candles by the icons. There as chanting played softly in the background. Tears came into my eyes.

Tosh

Was Jesus a Buddhist Monk? BBC Documentary in full here:



It seems a lot of people think Jesus was a Buddhist (probably mostly Buddhists mind! )

Tosh

Freke and Gandy wrote an excellent book on Christianity, and how it lost it's way to what we have today:



http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gospel-Second-Coming-Timothy-Freke/dp/1401915523/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320778208&sr=8-1-spell

Interesting stuff!

compassionate_warrior

Yes, there's a tomb in Kashmir said to be Jesus'. And his mother is buried in a town not far from there, it's said.

This thread is really taking on a life of its own! Wonderful posts! See what you started, Leon?

MindGate

Yes, there's a tomb in Kashmir said to be Jesus'. And his mother is buried in a town not far from there, it's said.

Yes, but where is his father's tomb? .. Oh wait a second.. nevermind.

compassionate_warrior

lol! Not that Father, MG. I think Joseph died and left Mary a widow. The story is that Jesus went East with his mother and Mary Magdalene, his wife. She's said to be buried over the mountains from Kashmir, in what's now Xinjiang province.

The newspaper reports by the Nicholas Roerich family say Jesus spent his time ministering to low-caste people, because they were traditionally left out of teaching activities by holy men of the time. The Hemis Monastery texts don't say he was a Buddhist monk. I've not heard that before. They're only reported to have said that he studied the words of the Buddha in his youth. But clearly, if it's true he went East and studied Buddhism, he didn't buy the whole package. He adapted the teachings to his own Jewish beliefs in God.

Tosh

They're only reported to have said that he studied the words of the Buddha in his youth. But clearly, if it's true he went East and studied Buddhism, he didn't buy the whole package. He adapted the teachings to his own Jewish beliefs in God.

Possibly a case of skilful speech, but if you read about the Gnostic Christians, salvation came from 'within'; and not external sources; like Buddhism.

Dakini

Possibly a case of skilful speech, but if you read about the Gnostic Christians, salvation came from 'within'; and not external sources; like Buddhism.

I"m not sure what you mean here, Tosh. Could you clarify this?
If what's being discussed is Jesus' studies in the East during his "lost years", it's doubtful that by the age of 12, when he supposedly left on his journey, that he would have learned much that was highly mystical in nature, or if he did, he may have had an open mind to other teachings, incorporating select elements from Buddhism. At this point, it's speculation, we may never know for sure. But I'm enjoying the speculation.

Thanks for the video, by the way. I find it interesting that the BBC takes Notovich seriously. A lot of people have dismissed his claims as falsified, but corroborating reports come up (which people also dismiss), so as far as I'm concerned, anything's possible. I want to check out that book c_w mentioned, by the swami who said he found the Hemis manuscripts.

SattvaPaul

I think it's plausible that Jesus had visited India (I don't know much about this theory though), but I think some scholars would take the similarities between what the Buddha said and what Jesus taught as evidence for it, instead of simply of the fact that they both had (similar?) insights.

Dakini

I've read essays denying that there are similarities, though. I've read both sides of the argument. Just because some people see similarities doesn't mean others will be convinced. But I guess it would take a lot to convince skeptics, anyway.

SattvaPaul

Yeah. The book I've read talks about quite striking similarities like using almost the same similes and so forth.

Dakini

Oh, I've seen that book on Amazon. It sounds good. I've seen essays on the internet somewhere, though, that refute that. I think it's good to keep an open mind either way. It would be exciting if someday it were proven that he did go East, or that the man in the Kashmir tomb is Semitic (probably the best that genetic testing could do). Have you seen the film, "Jesus in India"? It tells the story and visits the tombs of Jesus and Mary in Kashmir.

SattvaPaul

I agree. I've seen something about the tomb a while ago. I think that was probably in Michael Palin's Himalaya (highly recommended). I'll check out the one you mention.

MindGate

Although, can we honestly say that we know what Jesus preached (assuming he existed)? 2000 years of editing, translating, changing, and deleting tends to mess things up.

compassionate_warrior

Good point, MG. In the film Tosh posted, it says that there was no mention of the Resurrection in the original version of Mark. Now there's material there about the Resurrection, but they say it was added by Church fathers 200 years after Mark wrote his Gospel. So undoubtedly, other tinkering has been done as well. Fed said once that reincarnation used to be in the Bible, but that was edited out later on. I don't know if that was Old Testament, New, or both.

Tosh

Possibly a case of skilful speech, but if you read about the Gnostic Christians, salvation came from 'within'; and not external sources; like Buddhism.

I"m not sure what you mean here, Tosh. Could you clarify this?

Okay, imagine Jesus is a real man, and not just a literary device (which some think he is), and during the 'lost years' he goes to India and learns Buddhism, and then he returns home and wants to teach Buddhism; culturally he knows he will have a big fight on his hands; so he uses skilful speech and tries to integrate Buddhism into the current cultural beliefs.

The Old Testament is full of God being jealous and vengeful, but with Jesus comes a newer, more fluffy type of God; loving, caring and compassionate. I've read (somewhere) that Jesus may have used skilful speech, not to try to change 'everything', but to move them in the right direction, using already held beliefs but giving them a different emphasis.

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you", rather than receiving salvation from some external source.

DaltheJigsaw

Possibly a case of skilful speech, but if you read about the Gnostic Christians, salvation came from 'within'; and not external sources; like Buddhism.

I"m not sure what you mean here, Tosh. Could you clarify this?

Okay, imagine Jesus is a real man, and not just a literary device (which some think he is), and during the 'lost years' he goes to India and learns Buddhism, and then he returns home and wants to teach Buddhism; culturally he knows he will have a big fight on his hands; so he uses skilful speech and tries to integrate Buddhism into the current cultural beliefs.

The Old Testament is full of God being jealous and vengeful, but with Jesus comes a newer, more fluffy type of God; loving, caring and compassionate. I've read (somewhere) that Jesus may have used skilful speech, not to try to change 'everything', but to move them in the right direction, using already held beliefs but giving them a different emphasis.

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you", rather than receiving salvation from some external source.

I really like this!

ThailandTom

Christianity says that everything was created by a god, you are controlled by a god and you should do what the god says. Buddhism says you are in control, that the world was not created by a creator god, and that you can do what you like. How can one mix the two .. :scratch:

compassionate_warrior

According to Tosh, Jesus pulled it off to a degree. "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you". Sound familiar? Like Buddhanature? And it's true, Jesus introduced compassion into the God concept, which was revolutionary. He was regarded as a revolutionary, partly because he preached to outcasts. I wonder what other Jewish holy men and wandering healers were teaching at the time. I've heard it wasn't uncommon back then to travel around doing teachings and healings.

This thread just keeps getting interestinger and interestinger. "Fluffy" gods, anyone? I wonder, is that where G.W.Bush got his idea for a "kinder and gentler" this and that? It could well be.

ThailandTom

LOL, I am just going to hold my tongue and zip it!! :rolleyes:

Tosh

Thich Naht Hahn wrote a book called Living Buddha, Living Christ.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Buddha-Christ-Thich-Nhat/dp/0712672818/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320878146&sr=8-1

I've got the book, and it's okay; not one of my favourites, but it's worth a read for anyone who wishes to have a look at the similarities between Christianity and Buddhism.

Dakini

Thanks for clarifying, Tosh, I agree. Good scenario, it makes sense.
I wonder if TNH wrote that book in part because Vietnam had been partially Christianized? That would be a good book for countries where both Buddhism and Christianity are practiced, like Taiwan, for ex.