Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Strong reaction to the "G" word
I am a Facebook user, and it would seem some of my friends are religious - other than Buddhists. Some of them feel a need to post things regarding their religion, and proselytizing bothers me.
One guy actually works for a church, and thus a lot of his posts are relative to that. He is a music director and is always posting about some concert or another. Whatever, so I blocked his feed, and kept him as a friend because he's a nice guy. He's not like that in person.
Another friend is now going on about how g-d has the answer, and how g-d is going to help him, and it offends me! So, I have to look at it, since I would never say anything to someone about their beliefs.
I know it's unskillful, and my guess is that it comes from my firm belief that the whole concept of g-d is a fairy tale. I just cannot grasp this concept of an all-seeing,all-knowing being that can help in times of crisis, and if you believe it, also lets people down in times of tragedy,so they are also a fickle g-d. Then there is the fact that people equate Jesus, a man, with g-d and worship him. Though I do not know (or want to) enough about Christianity to elaborate more on this. Plus the whole worship concept is strange to me.
Buddha was a man, a wise one, who struggled to find his way to clarity, and found it as he understood it. I get the feeling he did not consider himself anymore than a man, as HHDL considers himself to be a simple monk. All mysticism aside I feel it to be much more believable than Christianities take on g-d.
I know that in some facets of Buddhism we pay respect to the Buddha by doing prostrations, which in and of itself is a form of worship. I find it awkward,both physically (arthritis), and in practice. To me Buddhism is more a way of life,how to conduct ourselves and treat others. That is what the majority of the teachings seem to be, even though many of them are elaborate, they are codes of conduct. I "get" that.
So, I am struggling to understand why I have such an averse reaction to people who say g-d this, and g-d that. Surely there is something I am missing, over and above what I have already stated.
Does anyone else struggle with something similar?
Finally, to any of you who are Christian, and who believe in g-d, Please know that I mean no offense towards your beliefs, they are just not for me personally.
One guy actually works for a church, and thus a lot of his posts are relative to that. He is a music director and is always posting about some concert or another. Whatever, so I blocked his feed, and kept him as a friend because he's a nice guy. He's not like that in person.
Another friend is now going on about how g-d has the answer, and how g-d is going to help him, and it offends me! So, I have to look at it, since I would never say anything to someone about their beliefs.
I know it's unskillful, and my guess is that it comes from my firm belief that the whole concept of g-d is a fairy tale. I just cannot grasp this concept of an all-seeing,all-knowing being that can help in times of crisis, and if you believe it, also lets people down in times of tragedy,so they are also a fickle g-d. Then there is the fact that people equate Jesus, a man, with g-d and worship him. Though I do not know (or want to) enough about Christianity to elaborate more on this. Plus the whole worship concept is strange to me.
Buddha was a man, a wise one, who struggled to find his way to clarity, and found it as he understood it. I get the feeling he did not consider himself anymore than a man, as HHDL considers himself to be a simple monk. All mysticism aside I feel it to be much more believable than Christianities take on g-d.
I know that in some facets of Buddhism we pay respect to the Buddha by doing prostrations, which in and of itself is a form of worship. I find it awkward,both physically (arthritis), and in practice. To me Buddhism is more a way of life,how to conduct ourselves and treat others. That is what the majority of the teachings seem to be, even though many of them are elaborate, they are codes of conduct. I "get" that.
So, I am struggling to understand why I have such an averse reaction to people who say g-d this, and g-d that. Surely there is something I am missing, over and above what I have already stated.
Does anyone else struggle with something similar?
Finally, to any of you who are Christian, and who believe in g-d, Please know that I mean no offense towards your beliefs, they are just not for me personally.
0
Comments
I think this sticking point shows you where you have trouble accepting others for who they are? Hate to point fingers but I am just trying to help. Perhaps jusst sit with the energy of that averse reaction. It is ok. It is just thinking
Buddhists tend to bend over backwards for Christians ... who seldom return the favor because there is a built-in imperative to convert one and all to the one true faith. It's one of the rules as I understand it. And the practical implications ripple out and out and out. The intensity of the proselytizing can vary. Not every Christian is a nitwit, but as far as I know, setting others on the path to heaven is in the Christian playbook. It is not in the Buddhist playbook.
I see nothing wrong with discussing things, if you choose. I also see nothing wrong in telling anyone that I do not agree and, moreover, s/he is being a pest. In the same way I might tell a salesman, "No thank you. I'm not in the market for Tupperware," I think I have the right to speak clearly and, if need be, forcefully to anyone who tries to feed me anchovies ... which I really don't like.
Just noodling.
---
With all joking aside, I do feel the same way. Personally, I believe that people should be able to believe whatever they want. Though, for the most part, they should keep these beliefs to themselves unless someone directly asks about it. Going around and flaunting your religion and holiness just seems very pretentious and gives off a "holier than thou" vibe. The Bible itself even says one should not go around professing their faith, praying in public, etc - but rather simply pray in their closet.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not feel that I do not accept them for who they are, actually, both of them are gay too. It's more that I have the sticking point of not believing in what they believe in. I know it's wrong to feel that it's silly because that is then passing judgement, I just have to help myself I guess.
Oddly the latter guy I mentioned at times has claimed some Buddhism, and goes on about karma, even though he doesn't really have a concept of what he is saying. Karma is bandied about anymore in a casual sense...it's a buzzword so to speak, and some people just think it's cool.
I am pretty much of the conclusion that I must check my feelings as I have been. I have the option to block the feed if I want to, and will if it gets that bad for me. He's just going through a bad time right now - same as me actually, so I am trying to be supportive where I can.
I do not feel I have the right to tell anyone to not talk about their religion, however at the same time I reserve the right to not have it crammed down my throat. Somewhere there is a line.
Wars have been fought over things like this, and if egos go unchecked it will happen again. I do not claim to be right, if anything I am saying that I am not so I can fix it.
I guess I am the only one who feels like this, or isn't managing it well.
---
"I guess I am the only one who feels like this, or isn't managing it well."
Lol, no. See my "Reason Rally 2012" thread.
Einstein used the word 'God' as the Great Unknowable and he didn't believe in any 'speshul relationship' between any Magic Man who lives in the sky and us.
I sit in A.A. meetings, which can sometimes be a bit 'Goddy', (they say A.A. is the only organisation in the World where you can here the 'F Word' and 'God' in the same sentence, and no-one bats an eye-lid), and some of my favourite meetings have been when there's Muslims (I know they are by the way they dress), and Christians - all alcoholics - all helping in genuine concern for each other to recover from alcoholism (or to stay recovered).
So God or no God, who cares? I personally believe (along with HH Dalai Lama) that there is value to believing in a God for some folk, and it's how we live life that matters.
At a point in my life I felt the same way. Every time someone started saying God-this or God-that, I did a mental eye-roll (if not a physical one). What helps us get beyond judging the beliefs of others so harshly is to understand how we come to our beliefs. Our individual experiences, moment to moment throughout our lives, have led us to where we are. It's the same for everyone else; we've all been conditioned by our experiences to believe what we do.
Whatever we may think is wrong, we should only recognize that it is wrong for us. No one else falls under our responsibility as far as how they wish to view the world or what they choose to believe. We don't have to agree with them, but neither should we judge them. There is no right or wrong in beliefs, these are simply the result of our experiences and only change in the same way (through the right experiences).
When you notice an adverse reaction arise in your mind to someone talking about God, just notice it. Mentally note that an unskillful and unwarranted judgment has arisen, and then let it go. Continue to try and understand the foundation of how beliefs are formed and that no one is really choosing; it's not you being sensible vs. everyone else being non-sensible, but rather many factors working together that bring each individual to their current beliefs.
I appreciate the feedback, so maybe I have had the right idea all along then. Acknowledge that it bothers me, and either block the feed or let it go. I was feeling like a bad person for even just doing a mental eyeroll.
From my perspective, based on things I have read, religion in any form is basically a form of law, it's meant to create order out of what could become chaos. So it gives people a code of conduct, at least in theory anyway. Judaism and Buddhism come to mind. This seems to have all come long before our current legal system.
A bit of back story, I was not raised in any particular faith, I guess you could say none. the "G" word was never something mentioned in our house. Though I did go to Sunday school when I was very little, but I remember it more as playtime with no religious influence.
I also attended a Methodist youth group, but that was a social thing for me, and it too had no religious overtones. I never attended church - the one time I did it was really awkward. I knew I did not belong there. Although I did not burst into flames!
:rarr:
Maybe my upbringing has helped form my views, as I now feel that one should be able to choose their spiritual path, should they want one. Raising a child to live in fear of something that's untenable seems wrong to me, since they do not understand religious concepts, and it takes away their options until such time as they are free to choose. Especially the extremists.
Hope you are well.
more than anything, me expressing my atheist views will seem combative to a christian and that is not my intent at all. sure, i might personally think it's a little silly and delusional, but it's incredibly unlikely that anything i could say would have any effect on their opinions anyways. now, if someone came to me with questions, i would be more than happy to discuss my point of view... but otherwise, forcing my atheist views on a christian is just as bad as them forcing their monotheistic views on me. do unto others as you would have them do unto you, right?
The more we relax the solid feeling surrounding our personal views, the less agitating other views become. Aversion to the word God, so much that you have to dash the o is quite telling of the potency of the distress. Hubris, consider doing some metta practice with god. The idea of god has had some profoundly helpful (social and moral) impact for troubled minds. Why does God feel threatening to you?
Um,no not distress. It's just something I picked up along the way from others who are non-believers too. I do not put that much stock in it,nor should you.
The concept of a god is not at all threatening to me, it's just not something I choose to believe in, because it's not believable from my perspective. If I *must* give an opinion, then I will say I find it ridiculous, all the while knowing that there are those who find Buddhism ridiculous too,so typically I keep that aspect to myself. Ostensibly you believe in the god concept,else you would not be examining what you think I mean.
You make many assumptions about me it would seem. Kind of judgmental, especially since I am at least trying to hold it up, look at it, and see why when other people throw their views in my face that it bothers me. Nothing at all wrong with some self-improvement.
Metta practice with something I feel does not exist? I'd rather throw metta around towards something tangible, like people who need it. I can do it actively or passively just by putting it out into the universe. Though I much prefer actively, I had occasion to yesterday in fact.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as they say. I am pretty straightforward and unpretentious, I say what is on my mind. Right @MindGate
My intent is not to judge your beliefs, only to address the causes and conditions you presented. For instance: These reactions you describe seem to me to be aversion, which is why my post was intent on giving you my view on how to uproot the distress. I have no investment in your relationship to the word or concept of God, except that it causes you distress, and you seem curious on how one might untangle that and become peaceful... independent or detached from the phenomena. Belief in God is a leaf in the forest, while aversion is very much a root of suffering.
If we frame it in a different context, perhaps it will be easier.
If someone were to mention that every time they see people talking about z-mbies, see pictures of z-mbies, or have people try to convince them z-mbies exist, they feel a strong emotional "offense" or "need to block", I would offer the same advice.
The practice of metta with zombies would not be to try to improve one's relationship with a non-existent concept. The practice of metta with zombies would be to untangle the knot of emotions in the mind, so their relationship with zombie believers would be more peaceful. Zombies existing or not-existing is really irrelevant, so long as people believe in them, make movies about them, talk about them.
I speak of this God aversion from a place of experiential wisdom, as I once had an even stronger aversion than you describe.
Now, when people proselytize to me from a place of wishing me to "be saved", I feel a sense of empathy for them... as they are doing what seems compassionate to them. Rather than being "offended" or "distressed", I feel a sense of warmth and love for them. This isn't because I hold their view, or feel like I am being "saved." Rather, I respect the genuineness of their actions, which is far more important than the content of their belief.
With warmth,
Matt
I posted a comment on my Facebook calling the tea party "teabaggers", and one friend seemed to have taken offense to that by saying something to the effect of "you never know whom you are calling a teabagger". My (ex) gf reminded me that he is a Sarah Palin fan, too.
The whole thing is really interesting to me because he falls under the LGBT spectrum, and they are not usually on the Right with their political views. Though he is a self-proclaimed redneck. I basically told him the topic at hand was moot, and that I was not going to debate him on the topic of Occupy.
However I did say that I find it compelling that groups like the (LGBT) Log Cabin Republicans are happy to take advantage of the benefits (like the repeal of DADT) that the Democrats fought hard(er) for. Also that the votes on things like DADT are clearly divided by partisanship, with few dissenters.
Total conflict of interest, since most of the Right might as well be wearing white sheets when it comes to LGBT issues (especially here in the South), so this is another instance where it is odd to me that he would side with a group of people he was hated - or at least marginalized by.
So that's two, spirituality and politics.
How about them NY Giants??? :wtf:
In all seriousness, I do find that very strange. Are you sure your friend isn't more Libertarian than Republican? You know, socially liberal but fiscally conservative. It doesn't make sense to me that someone would want to be part of a group that dislikes them and wants to strip away their rights.
You know what they say: Never argue with an idiot they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Though in his case idiot is not accurate, he's intelligent, just stubborn.
I wonder if this now precludes us from going fishing in the future?
And I'm saying this in spite of agreeing with the original premise of the OP ...
I too can be very much put off by "christian" behavior, but they are irritating in varying degrees. Some of my relatives where badgering my MIL to "find the Lord" when they thought she was dying... and posted on FB that she had.... ! NOT!!! :-) Ugh.
Well until I see more of them voting for rather than against LGBT rights I maintain my position. I think he just got lucky. I started to tell him that if something he does or says disagrees with them that they will turn on him and use his background against him in a heart beat. I have seen it happen.
Instead I told him that if he could change minds, or at least open them, more power to him. I hope he never gets hurt. Truly.
Is he "out and proud", or is he one of those conservative types who keeps their personal life on the DL? My guess would be the latter if he is a businessman who is making a fair amount of money. Just curious, if you want we can take this off forum