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Veterans Day - I couldn't have said it any better myself

MountainsMountains Veteran
edited November 2011 in General Banter
CAUTION: This piece contains a potentially offensive point of view if you're an average American.

Written by a military veteran. He pretty well sums up my feelings on the matter (and yes, I *am* a veteran)

**********************


November 11, 2011

It's Veterans Day



So it's Veterans Day, which means that the US is awash with mostly obligatory tributes to military personnel.

I hate this shit.

I didn't fight for your freedoms. In the six years I was in, I never once defended your right to vote, or to carry a gun, or to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure (that one doesn't really apply anymore, anyway), or any of the other things you enjoy as a citizen of this country. I just didn't. Neither did anyone who went to Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Vietnam. It's all bullshit. It's a fucking lie that we tell ourselves and each other so that we don't have to think about why we send young men and women to serve, suffer, and die for old men's vainglorious ideas and profit margins.

I passed through Burlington, Wisconsin this summer, just before Memorial Day. I was on my way home from plotting world domination with Athenae and decided to stop and visit the annual chocolate festival in that small town. Who could say no to that, right? Well, while there (this being Wisconsin), I got myself a beer. To do so, you had to put up with the shitty metal cover band in the beer tent. There's a 45-year-old lead singer acting a fool--pouring beer on his own goddamned head, making dumb-ass sexist remarks, saying stupid shit about his teen-aged daughter, etc. Since that wasn't reprehensible enough, he then proceeded to thank all the veterans in the crowd, specifically pointing out one man whose--well, I'll just quote this asshole.

I wanna thank all of our veterans for what they do for us. Every guy in the band, our fathers were all in the military. My dad was in Korea! This guy right here in front--his son is in Iraq right now. He's over there FIGHTIN' FOR OUR RIGHT TO PARTY!

I wanted to rush the stage and strangle that fuck with a microphone cord.

It's all bullshit, folks. We don't do anything for anyone's freedom. The military hasn't actually deployed en masse to defend your freedom in a long, long time. Unless you call rich people fucking over the world's poor and powerless a form of freedom. As you may have guessed, I don't. It's bullshit. And it needs to stop.

I don't mind honoring sacrifice, but the military doesn't have a monopoly on that, now does it? I also don't mind remembering military dead and wounded. But we do it all wrong. We just fetishize the suffering (like good Catholics, no?) without wondering why it ever happened in the first place. Remembrance and memorial, it would seem, also involve reflection and assessment. Just because someone died or was wounded doesn't automatically validate how he or she came to be in that state. We send our young people overseas to be bored, pull duty, sometimes get shot at, and occasionally get hit. Then we never ask why they're over there in the first fucking place, because doing so, apparently, does them a disservice. What kind of jack shit is that?

A real Memorial Day or Veterans Day (called Remembrance Day in other parts of the world) would involve commitments to cease sacrifices that don't actually, you know, do anything in the name of freedom. Losing your legs so that Chevron can see higher profit margins is not noble. It's a god damned shame. Dying in the service of defense contractors doesn't bestow sainthood on the deceased. It just means that a life got snuffed out for no good reason. Reflexive military worship is a cancer on society. Unscrupulous people use it to justify their actions and avoid any criticism. That shit makes the act of asking why we should send young people to absorb bullets and get blown to pieces into some kind of subversion and/or sedition. How fucking ridiculous is that? Wondering if someone's death was worth the cost doesn't dishonor the person. I don't know how we've confused evaluating the motives and actions of leaders with spitting on corpses, but we have. And until we can untangle those things, we're just well and truly fucked when it comes to international affairs.

So this Remembrance Day, take a minute to actually reflect on the acts and deeds of people in uniform. But that involves critical thought instead of blind acceptance of the rightness of our leaders' actions. Honor the dead and care for the living, but don't think that people in uniform today are actually standing between you and tyranny.

Remember that.

Comments

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    As a three-year, no-combat Army vet, I liked that a lot.

    Several days ago, I wrote something and sent it to the local newspaper ... on Veterans Day. They probably won't have the room or interest to print it, so I will stick it here for what it's worth. The point of view reminds me a little of Smedley Butler, the Marine Corps general who won TWO medals of honor and then went on the peace circuit, speaking out against war. His "War is a Racket" was published in 1935.

    PEACE ON VETERANS DAY

    A friend of mine, Dave, was in the Korean War as an Army engineer. And it was he who told me, as veterans are often understandably reluctant to do, of the nights when he and his company were dug in, freezing in foxholes, alert and exhausted and conscious of the fact that the enemy might attack under cover of darkness.

    And the enemy did attack on more than one occasion. But as often as not, it was not artillery or mortar or machine-gun fire they employed. Instead, through the cold and frightening nights, there would be an overwhelming silence. But the next morning, when the blessed light returned, several men in adjacent foxholes would be found at rest ... with their heads cut off.

    "They wore sneakers," Dave said of the enemy that came in the night.

    Which of us would not shiver and recoil at such a horror? Which of us would ask our friends and neighbors to endure such a world? From the comfort of our homes, it is unspeakable to commit such acts or to be party to a world in which such acts are committed. Blaming others is no excuse.

    And so, as the flags wave and the bands play and the veterans march on America's Main Streets, I truly hope everyone will honor those who have been forced to endure such soul-searing adventures, whether as victim or perpetrator. It demeans the efforts of our veterans to suggest that the best peace they have assured is a peace in which others are forced to do what they would give their eye teeth to forget ... and yet cannot.

    Let us honor the scars that others bear and have borne ... and give a wide berth to a patriotism and peace that can do no better than to send our friends and neighbors back to some new, and equally nightmarish, front.

  • edited November 2011
    Asking ourselves why we're in these wars, why we're sending young people to fight and die there, won't do any good because the voters don't make those decisions. Even Congress doesn't, although only Congress has the power to enter the US in a foreign war. Ever since the Vietnam "conflict" (see how they get around the requirement for Congress to declare war?), presidents have been making the decision to go to war.

    Loopholes, it's all about loopholes these days. Tax loopholes, financial regulation loopholes, legal and Constitutional loopholes. Thanks for a frank and out-of-the-ordinary take on Vet's Day.
  • It's about profit. Loopholes maximize profit. Everything is about maximizing the bottom line, and thus the size of the bonuses and perks for the 1%.

    Reminds me of somebody...

    image
  • MountainsMountains Veteran
    edited November 2011
    Here's an excerpt from Dwight D. Eisenhower's farewell speech from 1961. Very prescient (emphasis mine):

    "A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

    Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

    Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry.
    American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

    This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

    In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
  • Nice, Mountains..
  • Wow, powerful stuff, and so true. Thank you.

    Even if the veterans do not defend us per se, I still have gratitude for them putting themselves in harms way, I'd be scared to, besides, it's a crappy life for those on the front lines.

    Anymore war is about something we need, and that others are reluctant to give. Oil, nuclear material (plutonium,etc), and so on. We are ensuring our comfort level of consumerism...there's that word again.

    There are no more monarchs to defend against. The only ones benefiting from the wars are those that process or sell the resources we seek, and those that outfit the war machine.

    There's a reason we do not yet use fuel-cell technology,even though it's way more cost efficient. Big oil would lose too much money, and the politicians whom they donate to cannot have that.

    Just sayin'
  • edited November 2011

    We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.
    Too late now. :shake:
    We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
    "Our peaceful methods and goals". "..an alert citizenry". Good luck with that. :sawed:

    It's against the interests of the industrial and military machinery, and corporations in general, to have an alert and well-educated, objective (un-propagandized) citizenry.

    This Eisenhower speech should be played on PBS on a regular basis. PBS used to be more political than it is now. It seems to have been de-fanged at some point in the last decade or so. Too many threats by Republican administrations to pull its funding plug, or something. Look at how dependent it's become on corporate donations.

  • Hubris, spot on comments, but I'll react to specific comment you made about fuel cell technologies. Not sure if I'm talking about the same thing, but I am seeing a lot of advertisements for hybrid and electric cars. And ten years ago it didn't seem they would ever catch on. I am not sure how affordable the cars are. They are certainly more expensive, but if you drive a lot the better gas mileage makes up for it. So I am hoping that our dependance on gasoline will decrease. Of course we still need cracked petroleum to make pharmaceuticals, pesticides, and textiles. :(
  • Fuel cells refers to hydrogen fuel cells, no? Hubris, do you have any news about how that research and development is progressing? It hasn't been in the news. I remember back in the 1970's Ralph Nader used to talk about how cheaply and easily cars running on steam could be built. He said the technology is so simple, that the cars would be cheaper, and therefore the auto industry would have a diminished base upon which to add extra charges, so there would be less of a profit margin. I have no idea if he was right about steam-engine cars. Is there an engineer in the house?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited November 2011
    The problem is that hydrogen explodes I think. There is still research to find batteries involving activated hydrogen in a metal cluster system (and others) where the hydrogen is split and on a metal rather than in the explosive gaseous state. At least when I was in chemistry in the early milenium it was active research topic.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    Glad I'm not alone in thinking this.
  • Every year in my country - in the country I grew up living in - there are sombre and emotional and "serious" Days of Remembrance.

    And whilst I sympathise and empathise and feel sad also for those that have died, I also think 'This "remembrance" is also so faux. They don't really remember because the world over does it over and over and over again'

    War ad nauseum - no hesitation to do the same thing to men, women and children the world over. Sending troops to kill and maim etc. And then - what? To play all sad and 'remembrance' at those 'who have died'.

    Sad...but true, I think.
  • edited November 2011
    For me, Veteran's Day is about whatever current group of veterans is suffering. We should be mindful about the problems faced by returning veterans from the Mid-East. The government isn't providing them with the services they need. Treatment for Post-Traumatic Stress is being denied many of them, and there is no Veteran's Bill to provide them with jobs and easy loans to buy housing, as there was after WWII. We could use these remembrance day holidays to write our representatives in government to demand full medical and mental health services for veterans. We can use such holidays to work to bring justice and compassion to veterans.
  • In Gulf War 1, I met an American marine who told me in quite an upbeat voice, "Hey man, I would just love to die for my country!"

    I'm afraid, there will be servicemen and women, in the US Forces, who serve their country because they think it's the right thing to do; and not for any purely selfish motive.

    I'm an ex British soldier, of 17 years service, and I joined for selfish reasons; but not all are like me.
  • @Tosh I wonder if TV and movies play a role in creating a Rambo mindset. A lot of those serving for the US are reserves who never expected to go to war, and signed up for the education benefits. Then they wound up serving not one unexpected tour of combat duty, but several. It's a mess. Where did you do your service?
  • @Dakini; I served in Germany and Northern Ireland (during the Troubles) mostly, but also served 8 months in Belize, and did operational service during Gulf War 1, Bosnia and Kosovo. All added up, I spent over four years in operational environments (places where people want to shoot at you). I left the army just as Iraq and Afghanistan was kicking off; I'd had enough.

    I quite enjoyed my time in the forces to be honest; on reflection; because it often wasn't much fun at the time.

    As for TV and movies creating a 'Rambo mindset', there recently was a documentary on the TV about the US military's history of their killing ethos. For example during the Vietnam war, it was known that to kill goes against the grain of human nature. So, the idea at the time was very much to instil some sort of dehumanisation process into American troops, so they could kill their enemy easier. But this created many mental health problems, so the ethos has changed. It seems they now like to instil moral code into their troops; trying to get them to see themselves as defenders of peace (or something like that). I wish I remembered what the documentary was called.

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    @Tosh -- I don't know the documentary you refer to, but I do remember reading that troops who returned to the U.S. from the war zone (Iraq, Afghanistan ... and no doubt many others) stood a greater chance of a stable re-entry into civil society if they felt, somehow, that what they had done was 'right' or 'good' or 'patriotic.' Those who did not have such a belief tended to have more mental difficulties, nightmares, horrors and the like. There was no description of how long the effects of feeling 'right' lasted.
  • Today is Remembrance Sunday in the UK. I've not done anything to celebrate it or remember it. I've never been big on this kinda thing. In the army I enjoyed the day; we'd dress up in posh uniforms; it gave me a chance to show my medals off to the younger soldiers.

    We'd go on a church parade (I've never believed in God), and then we'd go to the Mess for a curry lunch and to drink heavily.

    But I wouldn't knock today, there are many people who need to remember I guess. Those who had far more rougher times in the military than myself; who have killed and seen their mates killed.

    War is very sad; politicians make the decisions and young men and women die or return home maimed or damaged in some way; often not really understanding the reasons for conflict in the first place.

    I've a Buddhist 'friend' I met on-line via a military forum, and she runs retreats specifically targeting the military and ex military (and their families) and is in the process of trying to get some government funding to help her with her 'work'.
    She's based in London, but holds retreats for forces and ex forces personnel, often with veterans from other wars who've 'turned Buddhist' to give talks. She recently had an American monk who served as a helicopter door gunner in Vietnam to give a talk; he killed 100s (possibly 1000s) of people; including Buddhist Monks himself.

    If any ex Forces members here are in the UK, and interested in getting in touch with her, PM me and I'll give you her e-mail.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    edited November 2011
    I look at all those people wearing "poppies" everywhere (in UK) and I find it hard to understand where is the line between remembering those who have died and glorifying the military.

    "The public hugely respects and admires what our service people do and the professionalism with which they do it."
  • In Gulf War 1, I met an American marine who told me in quite an upbeat voice, "Hey man, I would just love to die for my country!".
    Gen. George S. Patton famously said "Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. You win wars by making the other poor bastard die for his country."

    Anyone who says they would just love to die for their country just has a death wish. It's not noble and it's not patriotic. It's dumb.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    @Mountains -- The lack of experience makes the young dumb. Those determined to have wars rely on this lack of experience/stupidity and reward it with parades and patriotic talks and solemn funerals.

  • Anyone who says they would just love to die for their country just has a death wish. It's not noble and it's not patriotic. It's dumb.
    I fully agree. That kind of attitude would be shunned in the British army; you'd be thought of as a nutter and someone not safe to have around you; and certainly you wouldn't want people like this in charge of you. And saying it is one thing, but doing it is another.

    A few years back we had a young Royal Marine who tripped a hand grenade that was attached to a trip wire. His thoughts in the few seconds before it went off went along the lines of, "Well, it's my fault that happened, so it's not fair for it to kill my mates too".

    So he jumped on it back first, to protect his comrades from the blast, hoping to get some protection from his rucksack, thinking at best he may survive with the loss of some limbs. Amazingly he survived fairly intact; the large radio batteries in his rucksack protected him, but if you've ever thrown a grenade; they don't half make a scary bang.

    Now, was this guy a Boddhisatva who put his friends happiness (and life) before his own? Maybe not, but I'd buy the man a drink any day.

    But people do serve in the military for what they believe are the right reasons; I've met them. I've also known soldiers to perform great acts of compassion, putting their own lives in danger in doing so, and not only towards comrades, but towards civilians and animals caught up in dangerous areas.

    I think it's very difficult to generalise this kind of stuff.


  • I've a Buddhist 'friend' I met on-line via a military forum, and she runs retreats specifically targeting the military and ex military (and their families) and is in the process of trying to get some government funding to help her with her 'work'.
    She's based in London, but holds retreats for forces and ex forces personnel, often with veterans from other wars who've 'turned Buddhist' to give talks. She recently had an American monk who served as a helicopter door gunner in Vietnam to give a talk; he killed 100s (possibly 1000s) of people; including Buddhist Monks himself.

    If any ex Forces members here are in the UK, and interested in getting in touch with her, PM me and I'll give you her e-mail.
    Thich Nhat Hanh also does this. I think this would be really tough work.

    _/\_

  • As for TV and movies creating a 'Rambo mindset', there recently was a documentary on the TV about the US military's history of their killing ethos. For example during the Vietnam war, it was known that to kill goes against the grain of human nature. So, the idea at the time was very much to instil some sort of dehumanisation process into American troops, so they could kill their enemy easier. But this created many mental health problems, so the ethos has changed. It seems they now like to instil moral code into their troops; trying to get them to see themselves as defenders of peace (or something like that). I wish I remembered what the documentary was called.

    When I travelled in the US earlier this year, I saw advertisements/large billboards on the sides of American freeways.

    It was hugely inspiring - something like for country, or to do something bigger than yourself.

    The words escape me BUT the sense of ... inspiration, honour, pride, and wanting..I felt when I saw those ads...has not escaped me.

    I believe they were advertising for military personnel for the US and the intelligence behind those advertisements makes me want to weep.

    God help us all.

  • Anyone who says they would just love to die for their country just has a death wish. It's not noble and it's not patriotic. It's dumb.
    I fully agree. That kind of attitude would be shunned in the British army; you'd be thought of as a nutter and someone not safe to have around you; and certainly you wouldn't want people like this in charge of you. And saying it is one thing, but doing it is another.

    A few years back we had a young Royal Marine who tripped a hand grenade that was attached to a trip wire. His thoughts in the few seconds before it went off went along the lines of, "Well, it's my fault that happened, so it's not fair for it to kill my mates too".

    So he jumped on it back first, to protect his comrades from the blast, hoping to get some protection from his rucksack, thinking at best he may survive with the loss of some limbs. Amazingly he survived fairly intact; the large radio batteries in his rucksack protected him, but if you've ever thrown a grenade; they don't half make a scary bang.

    Now, was this guy a Boddhisatva who put his friends happiness (and life) before his own? Maybe not, but I'd buy the man a drink any day.

    But people do serve in the military for what they believe are the right reasons; I've met them. I've also known soldiers to perform great acts of compassion, putting their own lives in danger in doing so, and not only towards comrades, but towards civilians and animals caught up in dangerous areas.

    I think it's very difficult to generalise this kind of stuff.

    Probably in America patriotism is much more widespread/culturally acceptable/praised. In the UK or other countries you'd be seen as a tosser who needed a reality check...

    I sometimes think Americans are a bit more naive, perhpas because they believe their own stories so much and are somewhat sheltered by their own news programs/productions/hysteria.

    There are decent people everywhere I find, but it does not mean that we are all not manipulatible by the ruthless and tyrannic, or just plain people whom still believe hurting others is the best defence/way to win.

    Namaste.


  • When I travelled in the US earlier this year, I saw advertisements/large billboards on the sides of American freeways.
    It was hugely inspiring - something like for country, or to do something bigger than yourself.
    The words escape me BUT the sense of ... inspiration, honour, pride, and wanting..I felt when I saw those ads...has not escaped me.

    I sometimes think Americans are a bit more naive, perhpas because they believe their own stories so much and are somewhat sheltered by their own news programs/productions/hysteria.
    The US has a very sophisticated advertising industry guided by psychologists who know the most effective way to get a message across and motivate people to do things or buy things they otherwise would have no interest in.

    The Americans you see on TV news, waving their flags at parades and patriotic holidays, are the ones that create a naive image. The ones not waving flags, whose vision of patriotism is to protest unjust policies, are the ones you don't see as much. If they're at home, organizing letter-writing campaigns to Congress, you wouldn't see them at all.

    It's interesting how images and stereotypes are formed.

  • I sometimes think Americans are a bit more naive...
    Gee, y'think? :)
  • I sometimes think Americans are a bit more naive...
    Gee, y'think? :)
    You see, Abu? This is my point. Exhibit A: Mountains. Not at all the naive type. Check out some of his political rants. So you can't generalize. It used to be, in President Nixon's day, that the so-called "Silent Majority" referred to the conservatives. Nowadays, I wonder if it's the radicals and progressives who, up until OWS, were the Silent Majority. All those fundamentalist Christians, corporate types and other flag-wavers that the GW Bush administration brought out of the woodwork has given the world a false impression. At least, I hope it's false. :p

  • Floating_AbuFloating_Abu Veteran
    edited November 2011

    The Americans you see on TV news, waving their flags at parades and patriotic holidays, are the ones that create a naive image. The ones not waving flags, whose vision of patriotism is to protest unjust policies, are the ones you don't see as much. If they're at home, organizing letter-writing campaigns to Congress, you wouldn't see them at all.

    It's interesting how images and stereotypes are formed.

    Long blurb coming! :)

    Perhaps and yes of course it is about images and portrayals as well. Although I do believe that one needs to have lived in a country or land for a while to fully appreciate the aspects/nuances, I also would not ignore the (sometimes) facts that generalisations also point to.

    Note also that when I made those statements, of course I do not doubt that there are highly progressive, critical thinking, intelligent and decent people in America or anywhere else. Yes of course there are and I like America/Americans in general TBH. But majorities or large segments are sometimes enough to also characterise the generalisations of a nation.

    For example other pointers (I feel) are the movies that Hollywood produce (mostly low on quality but big on entertainment buck - I subscribe by the way), and also the politicians and news.

    For eg. yesterday on the international news channels I peruse, Mitt Rooney (?) was saying if you elect me (i.e.him), Iran will not have a nuclear weapon (pointing to a possible pre-emptive strike against Iran) but if you elect Obama, Iran will have a nuclear weapon.

    This type of extremely oversimplified thinking and logic sounds quite stupid to me but it potentially appeals to large segments of the American populace who are probably still stigmatised by a general fear of "enemies" and willing to think that military action actually will solve their issues/fears. I do not discount military action but this way seemed far to superflous, far too casual in its approach to something with very serious and sad consequences, not to mention to the guy: it ain't that simple, mate.

    A 2 second simple analysis will throw in the complications to such a scenario - strikebacks, revenge, sowing seeds of hatred, ramifications to other parts of the newly empowered Arab Spring spirit, the fact that the US has weakened itself considerably already through the Iraq and Afghan wars thus haemoraghing (sic) money/military might and rendering it a lesser international power etc

    The fact that this guy goes up there sprouting such statements so boldly and without any hesitation or wider consideration IS a reflection of the state of mind of American votes IMO.

    By the way, I do think most constituencies are also quite naive, but the American track record displayed from Bush - with the associated bravado, military might imagination and trigger happy track record is noted. Obama has tempered this to a large degree I think but my understanding is the perception/attacks on him are that he is, well weak. Sometimes I think that for anyone who really does consider the implications (potential and actual), and potential risks/consequences from various actions could not be anything but hesitant, if they are serious people.

    Just some more words to throw into the fray.

    And just to note again, I have nothing against America, whatsoever, and the impressions I relay are impressions I have received but that by no means means that I think every American is such - but obviously, I think, enough of them (ie. us) may subscribe to the easy portrayals..

    I also think that the news organisations, and powers that be, are highly responsible for this state of affairs.




  • And just to note again, I have nothing against America, whatsoever,
    Me too, however, only two good things have ever emerged from the United States; Alcoholics Anonymous and jazz music.

    Unfortunately, I don't like jazz.

    :-/
  • In many ways it is a two edge (or more) sword.

    The news reports I have seen on channels like CNN are highly US centric to the degree that it portrays a myopic kind of world view IMO.

    The fear/culture that many Americans may feel is of course due to the events of 9/11 and also harvesting that to put a them versus us sign through the sand...I think George W Bush really lost the opportunity to move the US to a better state. Anyway, I am not qualified for an indepth analysis but just throwing away some general impressions .. I like America and Americans on the whole and I find Americans usually (at least the ones I know) open, embracing, and I think many recognise and value decency, helpfulness - and I wish everyone well on those accounts.

    With thanks for the discussion,
    Abu
  • I hope people realize the US didn't elect GW Bush. Both elections were rife with irregularities. "Lost the opportunity to move the US to a better state"? It wasn't even on his mind.
  • I hope people realize the US didn't elect GW Bush. Both elections were rife with irregularities. "Lost the opportunity to move the US to a better state"? It wasn't even on his mind.
    He was the face.
  • I think it's true that Americans have the reputation of believing their own propaganda. I also agree, though, that critical voices haven't been heard, at least, they haven't been portrayed in the news. There was a subtle censorship going on during Bush Jr., which could give outsiders a false impression.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited November 2011
    And yes, most unfortunately, Bush was America's public face. Do you have any idea how painful it was for many Americans to be aware of that? *cringe*

    On the other hand, Yanks don't judge Brits by their Prime Ministers. What do we judge Brits by? I don't know.

    The overall impression of the US, both from the outside and the inside, is that protest and dissent have been dead until very recently. And yet, when I think about it, I realize that this is mistaken. In my town, there were protests against Bush policies, against the wars, against one thing or another, monthly, if not weekly, throughout his tenure.

    OH, and don't get me started on inane, trashy Hollywood movies that get marketed abroad! We would need a whole separate thread to deal with that topic!

    In sum, Bush and Hollywood don't represent America, any more than Stalin or Khrushchev and documentaries on agricultural production represented the Russian public. Let's face it: the country was hijacked by an embarassing idiot. Unfortunately, Reagan made air-headedness popular with a certain crowd. The US' image has been going downhill ever since.
  • And yes, most unfortunately, Bush was America's public face. Do you have any idea how painful it was for many Americans to be aware of that? *cringe*

    On the other hand, Yanks don't judge Brits by their Prime Ministers. What do we judge Brits by? I don't know.

    The overall impression of the US, both from the outside and the inside, is that protest and dissent have been dead until very recently. And yet, when I think about it, I realize that this is mistaken. In my town, there were protests against Bush policies, against the wars, against one thing or another, monthly, if not weekly, throughout his tenure.

    OH, and don't get me started on inane, trashy Hollywood movies that get marketed abroad! We would need a whole separate thread to deal with that topic!

    In sum, Bush and Hollywood don't represent America, any more than Stalin or Khrushchev and documentaries on agricultural production represented the Russian public. Let's face it: the country was hijacked by an embarassing idiot. Unfortunately, Reagan made air-headedness popular with a certain crowd. The US' image has been going downhill ever since.
    Good points, D

    And on second thoughts, it was not only Bush, but the subsequent politicians and representations we see: Palin (OH MY..), the pastors, the news reports we get, the focus that is seen on various news reports eg. Michael Jackson.

    George Bush - well I saw a report when he won the second election. Americans posted "I am sorry" to the world, so of course we knew it was not the whole country. So I stand corrected but the actions of his Administration have effects that are much worse IMO than just an image. The seeds of hatred because of the war...that is much harder and I fear more complicated.

    Anyway I will reiterate again - I think one of the biggst culprits, personally speaking, for the mess is the news organisations. CNN is nothing but (IMO) sensationalist and offers quite unintelligent, relatively shallow news coverage.

    I was surprised to see much better, in-depth and well rounded journalism on Al-Jazeera (the Western version, I have not seen the Arab versions)

    But it is a two way thing perhaps - the public demands fast easy news bites and are happy with that, the news channels oblige by feeding fast cheap news bits and analysis - dumb and dumber..

    Hm

    _/\_

    PS Brits are in a pretty bad state, the country is not happy generally with the state of affairs. And London is rife with crime and the like.
  • By the way I think one of the strongest attributes of American life and people is their openness (generally) to debate, criticism and that spirit that is willing to listen, change, engage etc.

  • Abu - clearly you don't live here. The biggest problem is that we don't have debate, we have argument among points of view that are generally fixed in stone, immovable, intransigent, and hard-core. It accomplishes nothing, and has made our country one of polar opposites.
  • nods, I can imagine it is so actually. When I watch different forums of American audiences..but a lot of my encounters are friends and Dhamma folk online :D and in real life so perhaps it is a different profile there.

    Sad, what you say, the country had potential I always thought. Perhaps it can again, who knows. We wish for the best.

    Namaste.

    PS I see the Occupy protestors are being cleared, that is a pity IMO.
  • Most American news shows are more about selling air time to advertisers than about news. And the news comes in easy-to-digest, bite-sized pieces, sometimes accompanied by newsreel footage from an unrelated event, if a propagandistic point needs to be made. If I watch news shows at all, it's only the ones that do in-depth reporting, and those are on Public Television, mainly. Some of the network news magazines, imitators of 60 Minutes, lean toward sensationalism, so the choices for deep, intelligent news coverage are few.

    Bush acted pretty unilaterally when he initiated those wars. He didn't have the support of the American people, and he circumvented the Constitution, which says only Congress can declare war, by only using National Guard and reserve units. This is the problem; the American people generally don't start or support wars, Presidents do. Very few soldiers in the Vietnam "Conflict" (only Congress can declare "war") were there willingly.
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