Delicate Subject.

Xrayman

Dear all,

I refer to the precept of "No Sexual misconduct".

Does this refer to all sexuality that someone "feels" is inappropriate or what? Where's the defining point?

Here's the question, is masturbation included in this precept? If so then how many of us are going to remain in samsara? teehee. (yes that was a rhetorical question, because I KNOW I'M OKAY....*tugs at collar* and *blushes*)

Also If one is a monk dedicated to chastity/abstinance, what to "do"? i don't want to get too personal here, but I really am interested to get your views.

Now I'm not meaning to be derisive etc. Just inquisitive.

Xrayman

querist

Good question, XRayMan.

I am eagerly awaiting an answer from those who are more knowledgeable than I am (which would be everyone else here).

-Q
(The _real_ village idiot of the forum)

Xrayman

I suspect-if this was a catholic forum, many (perhaps all?) of us would be destined for the elevator that goes down and stays there. hahaha

Sabine

*buh-link*

Will

Remember folks, Buddha and his tradition just explain the general effect, good or bad, leading to suffering or not, of various actions of body, speech or mind. There are no forbidden or required actions. We decide, given the explanations of karmic results, what to do or not do.

The Indian-Tibetan Mahayana tradition is pretty explicit regarding what forms of sexual misconduct are discouraged because of leading, in the long run, (and sometimes the short run) to more suffering for us. They include (see the Great Treatise on Stages of the Path of Je Tsongkhapa) masturbation, homosexual acts, adultery, too frequent relations, relations at the wrong time, in the wrong location, in the wrong orifice etc.

So, the best idea is to, at least, try to reduce our sexual activity; meaning our sexual imagination, speech & the actions themselves. How much? It is up to us to decide.

Xrayman

Hey that's a good post! thanks.

Xrayman

TheInfanta

I'm going to respond to this with the view that I personally think the Buddha held..

I think that sexual misconduct is defined by any pain, emotional or physical, that is inflicted during sex or as the result of sex.

Jason

All,

For another perspective, sexual misconduct as described by the Venerable S. Dhammika:

If we use trickery, emotional blackmail or force to compel someone to have sex with us, then this is sexual misconduct. Adultery is also a form of sexual misconduct because when we marry we promise our spouse that we will be loyal to them. When we commit adultery we break that promise and betray that trust. Sex should be an expression of love and intimicy between two people and when it is it contributes to our mental and emotional well-being.

Let us also not forget that the definition of "misconduct" can change. The precept against sexual misconduct prohibits illicit sex that is physically or or mentally harmful, adulterous, or illegal (going against the laws of the land). For example, if it is illegal where you live to have sex with someone if they are under a certain age, then having sex with them is considered sexual misconduct. The precepts are meant to protect you from creating negative kamma for yourself, from harming other sentient beings, AND from getting into legal trouble. They're nothing if not practical. If you're interested, here is a related article from Buddhanet about Buddhist Sexual Ethics.



Jason

dawnmike_239

An intersting Mahayana teaching by Nichiren wrote in "Passions are Awakening" states......

"When one chants "Namu-myoho-renge-kyo," then, even during love-making, the passions are awakening and the sufferings of life and death are nirvana."

Brigid

Sabine wrote:

*buh-link*

LMAO, Sabine!!! I've never seen that one before! It's absolutely fantastic. Soooo perfect!!!

Can I use it? *buh-link* Oh, man, I LOVE it!! So funny!!

Brigid

zenmonk_genryu

I'd go with the Infanta and Elohim on this one and I wouldn't include masturbation as sexual misconduct.

Esau

Hello all,
Well you know what they say......"stop that, you'll go blind!"

Brigid

zenmonk_genryu wrote:

I'd go with the Infanta and Elohim on this one and I wouldn't include masturbation as sexual misconduct.

Did anyone else hear the loud, collective sigh of relief when this was posted?

Brigid

zenmonk_genryu

LOL!

YogaMama

Absolutely - I heard all of the men give a big sigh of relief.

buddhafoot

As with all things, I think "modertation" is a major key.

Anything that becomes a driving force (drinking, medication, sensual desire, money, etc.) is something that can end up causing suffering.

-bf

Brigid

YogaMama wrote:

Absolutely - I heard all of the men give a big sigh of relief.

LOL!

harlan

Sexual misconduct starts with thought. An adulturous/impure thought, on one level, is as much a fall from grace as the physical act.

So, even if one only 'lusts in one's heart', to quote Jimmy Carter, one is in Hell.

zenmonk_genryu

I have a problem with that if others understand it too simplistically. On one level - yes Buddhism includes volition - Kamma Vipaka, and thought is a component of that. That's not to say though that we suffer because we have random thoughts that come up of an unskilful nature. The key is if that thought is identified with, indulged or repressed, especially if done so repeatedly. So even if we have a thought that is unskilfull and we repress it, thinking that it will result in 'bad karma', we're making the same mistake that we make if we indulge that thought. I would say that the issue is the identification, the being driven by the thought, rather than the thought itself.

Brigid

Genryu,

Great post. I can really understand how the repeated repression would be as detrimental as the repeated indulgence of unskillful thoughts now. It was a vague idea to me before, but in this context it's very clear. They are the same thing.

We have to develop wisdom, not fear, revulsion, shame, or indulgence when it comes to our thoughts. Take a cool, calm, non attached approach to them. Then their ability to confuse us and to cause emotional response is lessened.

I think this applies to all thoughts, seemingly skillful or not. Loving thoughts are often viewed as positive but they can often be the least skillful. Without wisdom to temper romantic love, for example, we are prone to projecting the most unrealistic attributes onto the object of our affection. And unrequited love can drive us equally insane.

Without wisdom, we take our emotions too seriously, endowing them with a life of their own. Just as we do with ideas, or anything else we want desperately to be true. The truth is, without guidance (like the Dharma) and the development of wisdom, we really don't know what's good for us.

Brigid

Xrayman

buddhafoot wrote:

As with all things, I think "modertation" is a major key.

Anything that becomes a driving force (drinking, medication, sensual desire, money, etc.) is something that can end up causing suffering.

-bf

Yes I think Modertation is perhaps a better sounding word-thanks BF your speelling ees mush improoved.

And yes I did sigh...

*wink wink*

thank you all for your "enlightening" posts!

I love this forum.

P.S. Thanks very much for bringing the sigh thing to everyone's collective mind, Brigid. Thanks.

groan.

teehee, Xray.:rockon:

Palzang

Well, sorry to throw a wet blanket on this discussion (or should I say "cold shower"?), but the Vinaya does prohibit masturbation. Of course, the Vinaya is only applicable to those who hold the vows of ordination, so you lay folks are off the hook. And masturbation does not entail a root breakage of the vow of celibacy. To do that, you have to have sex with another person. So it's more of a minor breakage. In the West the prohibition is not applied the same in all schools. In the Theravadan tradition, it is viewed as a serious matter that requires confession in front of the monastic community, being on probation for a period of time, etc. In other words, quite a tense situation. In practice it often drives people out of the monastic community, which, imho, is way too harsh. In my tradition, it's a little less stringent. It's not considered to be quite such a big deal. Better not to do it, but it's not the end of the world if you do.

I should also mention that "nocturnal emissions" do not count as masturbation. There is no fault when such an eruption occurs.

The thing here is that Buddhism has now come to the West where things are a little bit different than they were in Asia 2500 years ago. We're living in a society where we're constantly bombarded by sexual images. Advertisements use sex to sell everything from cars to noodles. It's impossible to go through the day without getting some stimulation, short of going off on retreat at some remote site, so it's only natural that you might have to "let off steam" rather than let it build up until you explode and really compromise your vows.

Palzang

buddhafoot

Palzang wrote:

Well, sorry to throw a wet blanket on this discussion (or should I say "cold shower"?), but the Vinaya does prohibit masturbation. Of course, the Vinaya is only applicable to those who hold the vows of ordination, so you lay folks are off the hook. And masturbation does not entail a root breakage of the vow of celibacy. To do that, you have to have sex with another person. So it's more of a minor breakage. In the West the prohibition is not applied the same in all schools. In the Theravadan tradition, it is viewed as a serious matter that requires confession in front of the monastic community, being on probation for a period of time, etc. In other words, quite a tense situation. In practice it often drives people out of the monastic community, which, imho, is way too harsh. In my tradition, it's a little less stringent. It's not considered to be quite such a big deal. Better not to do it, but it's not the end of the world if you do.

I should also mention that "nocturnal emissions" do not count as masturbation. There is no fault when such an eruption occurs.

The thing here is that Buddhism has now come to the West where things are a little bit different than they were in Asia 2500 years ago. We're living in a society where we're constantly bombarded by sexual images. Advertisements use sex to sell everything from cars to noodles. It's impossible to go through the day without getting some stimulation, short of going off on retreat at some remote site, so it's only natural that you might have to "let off steam" rather than let it build up until you explode and really compromise your vows.

Palzang

I don't think you were throwing a wet blanket on anything.

Sometimes, we have to remember that we have ordained and non-ordained people in this sangha. We have some lay people in this forum that are quite content to be such - and those that might pursue ordination in Buddhism.

It's always interesting to hear the different teachings and increase one's knowledge.

-bf

P.S. Fede was letting off some steam in another post. I just don't know what kind of steam it was now...

zenmonk_genryu

It's also something to bear in mind that not all ordained Buddhists are celibate, for example the Japanese and Korean traditions have non celibate clergy, particularly the Japanese, and Japanese derived traditions - where no school of Buddhism requires celibacy as an ordination vow (though Jiyu Kennet Roshi's Order of Buddhist Contemplatives is the exception), and as I recall, some of the Nyingma lamas in the Vajrayana traditions are also not celibate (Palzang may be able to clarify with regards to the Nyingma tradition as they may well be lay teachers rather than ordained clergy), so this would in any case apply to only a minority of people.

Brigid

Again, I heard a huge sigh of relief...

Palzang

buddhafoot wrote:

P.S. Fede was letting off some steam in another post. I just don't know what kind of steam it was now...

I shudder to think...

The Nyingma school is unique in Tibetan Buddhism for having married lamas. However, these lamas are NOT ordained. Actually in Tibetan Buddhism, the vows of ordination are identical to those of the Theravadans and trace their origins to the same exact texts. It is true that in Japan and elsewhere there are monks and nuns that do not have the vow of celibacy. There are some people who consider these monks and nuns lay practitioners, but that seems like mere rhetoric to me. Actually in Mahayana and Vajrayana the Pratimoksha vows (i.e. the vows of ordination) are low level vows. The Bodhisattva vow, for example, is considered a higher vow, and if you have to break the Pratimoksha vows to be true to the Bodhisattva vow (for example, touching a female to help her), then that is perfectly acceptable, though one is still expected to confess breaking the Pratimoksha vows in what we call So Jong (confession), though it's not like Catholic confession where you tell a priest your sins and get absolution. It's more of a group practice where you practice silent confession. In other words, it's between you and your Guru.

Palzang

federica

buddhafoot wrote:

P.S. Fede was letting off some steam in another post. I just don't know what kind of steam it was now...

:eekblue: :wtf:

YogaMama

Palzang wrote:

Well, sorry to throw a wet blanket on this discussion (or should I say "cold shower"?), but the Vinaya does prohibit masturbation.

Wait, Brigid...first I heard a bunch of really loud gasps here, and THEN a few sighs of relief.

zenmonk_genryu

So, that was you on the phone. :tongue2:

Brigid

LOL!!

buddhafoot

You guys are being naughty.

-bf

YogaMama

LOL, ZM!!

Buddhafoot....you can hardly discipline us for being naughty. You are usually the culprit!

Or maybe it's me?? :scratch:

federica

Oh well done, Yogamama...mention 'discipline' to B:F... you know where that takes him....!!

buddhafoot

federica wrote:

Oh well done, Yogamama...mention 'discipline' to B:F... you know where that takes him....!!

Yoda...

I never said there was anything wrong with being naughty. Just pointing it out

Fede,

Yes, Mistress...

-bf

YogaMama

Oh, right, fede...what was I thinking?? So sorry.

Palzang

I feel that the tenor of this discussion compels me to say something. I don't think it's really in the spirit of what the Buddha taught to be asking the question, "What can I get away with?", which is essentially what this discussion is about, no? The Buddha taught that desire is the root of all suffering in the world. Sex is driven by desire, intense physical desire. Therefore it should seem rather obvious that if you want to eliminate desire (and therefore find true, lasting happiness) that sex is perhaps the most important area of human life to work on. The tone of the original question is sort of like a little kid asking what can he/she get away with under mommy and daddy's rules. The point is that the Buddha taught us the way to eliminate desire by practicing renunciation (not repression, renunciation, which is quite something different entirely). If we are truly interested in attaining liberation from the wheel of death and rebirth, then it is necessary to put the teachings of the Buddha into effect in our lives. Ne c'est pas?

Now, for an ordained person, there are definitely rules that one is expected to follow, but for a lay person there are not so much. That does not mean, however, that the way to achieve liberation is different for an ordained person than for a lay person. My teacher recently gave a teaching on the five poisons in which she said that it is up to us to take responsibility for our own enlightenment by working on our own poisons. Not someone else's; our own. So I think that is the more appropriate view to take rather than seeing how much we can get away with. You can do whatever you please. Free will is what makes us human after all. But the way to attain enlightenment, as taught by Lord Buddha, is unequivocal and clear, and it is our responsibility, and ours alone, to work that out. It's not easy, and it takes a great deal of effort, and there is no "Buddha in the sky" to watch over us like a big daddy and that we have to appease by following his "rules". It's not about that.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. Hope I didn't offend anybody.

Palzang

YogaMama

Palzang..I don't think you could ever offend anybody. Your post was great.

Can you share with us what your teacher taught you about the "five poisions" a little bit more? I would love to hear about that.

buddhafoot

Good point, Palzang.

I didn't necessarily get the gist of the thread being "what can I get away with" - but I haven't gone back through and read all of the posts.

You make a good point about sex, desire, suffering, etc.

I'm also glad that you made the distinction betweeen ordained and lay-people.

There is a huge difference here for those of us who have not gone as far as ordination. Just as I'm sure you're aware that there are reprocussions for doing certain things while being ordained.

Ultimately, as you state, desire causes suffering.

I believe for laypeople, that if sex and desire of sex is something that causes you issues when you don't get it - you need to do something about it. You have too much focus on this issue and it is causing you suffering.

I don't know that I would go as far as renunciation - I don't know if I believe that is a requirement for a lay-person. And after all, if we're a lay-person - we truly aren't taken the path as seriously as someone who has become ordained. If we were taking it that seriously - we would become ordained.
But, while I said that I wouldn't go as far as renunciation - our "view" of this desire needs to be reigned into perspective. Reigned into something that one can participate in - but the absence of doesn't cause suffering.

This can be with anything we desire. If someone wants to get married and no one will marry them - the desire of "becoming married" becomes a source of suffering. When really... marriage in itself is neither here nor there.

-bf

buddhafoot

YogaMama wrote:

Palzang..I don't think you could ever offend anybody. Your post was great.

Can you share with us what your teacher taught you about the "five positions" a little bit more? I would love to hear about that.

Me too.

-bf

Will

Palzang: You can do whatever you please. Free will is what makes us human after all. But the way to attain enlightenment, as taught by Lord Buddha, is unequivocal and clear, and it is our responsibility, and ours alone, to work that out. It's not easy, and it takes a great deal of effort, and there is no "Buddha in the sky" to watch over us like a big daddy and that we have to appease by following his "rules". It's not about that.

Very good and thank you for striking a serious note. But there are guidelines for lay folk too. I mentioned them some posts back.

buddhafoot

I believe Palzang also made reference of the different rules regarding ordained and non-ordained persons in an earlier post too!

-bf

Palzang

I agree, BF, that the lay person has a different perspective. However, I don't agree that a lay person necessarily takes Buddhism less seriously than an ordained person. Generally that may be true, but not always. I've known some lay practitioners that make my practice look pretty pathetic, to tell the truth. So just because you're a lay practitioner doesn't mean that you're not as good a practitioner as a monk or nun. As my teacher put it once, the people who get ordained do so because they need to have the external support of the Vinaya, whereas the lay people maybe don't!

The five poisons - hatred, greed, ignorance, pride and envy - are the negative counterparts of enlightened wisdom - ultimate reality perfection, mirrorlike clarity, equalizing, discriminating and all-accomplishing wisdoms. In the particular talk I'm referring to, she mainly concentrated on hatred (or anger). One thing I never realized before hearing this teaching is that gossip is a form of hatred because we engage in it in order to feel superior to someone else, to boost our own ego at someone else's expense. Maybe that's why the Buddha was so dead set against it! Hatred in any form always comes back to us. That's just karma. Therefore if we want to attain happiness, we have to somehow extinguish the five poisons and transmute them into their enlightened counterparts. That's where the responsibility part comes in. It's really up to us to do it. Nobody else can do it for us. If you find yourself practicing hatred, then to antidote this poison, practice loving kindness, even if you have to grit your teeth at first to do it. If you engage in greed, then practice generosity as an antidote. The more you practice the antidote, the less you'll engage in the poison.

It's the same with desire, such as sex. The more you fan the flames of desire, the more you'll want. It's like Mark Twain said about bourbon: "Too much is never enough!" If, on the other hand, you can begin to practice renunciation, then the flames of desire will gradually lessen. I don't mean to say that lay people should become celibate. It's a gradual thing. You do the best you can. One good way to do this is to take a step back when you feel your habitual tendencies kicking in (such as masturbation, for example), and examine what's going on in your mind. What feeling is driving this? Can you release the feeling? If you can do that, the drive will also diminish. So there are practical ways of accomplishing renunciation gradually that will still allow you to enjoy marriage, produce children, and so forth. The thing is to practice the type of sex that does no harm to anyone, and we all know there are lots of ways that sex does cause suffering, such as adultery, indiscriminate sex, prostitution, etc. If people could just do that, it would make a big difference in the world, wouldn't it?

Palzang

HermanHesse

It's like Mark Twain said about bourbon: "Too much is never enough!"

Palzang, My friend you are a man amongst men. Thank you for posting that.

Cheers, HH

buddhafoot

Palzang wrote:

I agree, BF, that the lay person has a different perspective. However, I don't agree that a lay person necessarily takes Buddhism less seriously than an ordained person. Generally that may be true, but not always. I've known some lay practitioners that make my practice look pretty pathetic, to tell the truth. So just because you're a lay practitioner doesn't mean that you're not as good a practitioner as a monk or nun. As my teacher put it once, the people who get ordained do so because they need to have the external support of the Vinaya, whereas the lay people maybe don't!

Pally,

To me - it just seems that people that have taken their vows and have become ordained seem much more serious and dedicated than myself.

Just my own perception. You make a valid point. I was just talking about me.

-bf

YogaMama

Palzang, thank you so much for the lesson on the five poisons. That was very helpful.

Palzang

Herman Hesse wrote:

It's like Mark Twain said about bourbon: "Too much is never enough!"

Palzang, My friend you are a man amongst men. Thank you for posting that.

Cheers, HH

Well, Mr. Clemens is my hero. He always told it like it was. If you haven't read "Letters from the Earth", I highly recommend it! Especially good for recovering Christians...

Palzang

YogaMama

Palzang wrote:

recovering Christians...

LOL! I don't know why, but that cracks me up. Like they are recovering from a sickness or something!

Palzang

Well, aren't they? :crazy:

Brigid

Palzang,

These posts have been very helpful to me.
Thank you!

Brigid

Xrayman

I'd prefer to not tell you how much the posts have helped me... *blush*

federica

Palzang is the Haven of Reason, the Island of Sense and the refreshing Oasis of Clarity in the maelstrom, storm and arid desert we call this Illusioned Life.....


Sorry.....

Is this not Poet's Corner.....? :type: