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If the world was to end, what would happen to rebirth?

edited December 2011 in Philosophy
What would happen to my energy or conditioning created by my life (rebirth) if the world was to end now? Would that energy rebirth into life elsewhere if life existed elsewhere? Or would there be no rebirth? Would do you think? It was just some thought I had. Thanks :3
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Comments

  • Curious as to what makes you believe that is a real possibility, the world "ending"?
  • How about the word "meteorite" to fuel imagination.
  • Look at the post I made about 'no producer'.. in a flute there is no sound stored that comes out. After the lute is played there is no sound remaining. The sound you hear is due to causes and conditions coming together.

    Buddha was once asked what happens to a Buddha when they die. Buddha asked where does a fire go when the fuel is all consumed and it goes out? His answer was that the question does not apply.

    Reincarnation is quite a mystery. I have practiced over 10 years and I still don't understand it but I think it is more important to understand conditionality and impermanence.
  • Why do people keep rebirth confined to this planet? There is obviously some other forms of life out in the universe, the laws of the universe are not confined to the earth, so the laws of buddhism such as karma and rebirth I believe would not be also. Thinking that everything happens only here is similar to how people use to think years gone, that everything revolved around earth.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    Who cares?
  • Obviously a few people care otherwise the conversation would not arise. It is not all that important in the here and now, but why not talk about it?
  • It seems silly to me to think that life can only happen here, at this moment. We are proof that the universe produces life.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited December 2011
    It is silly to think it, it is ignorant, and it is almost arrogant lol. Furthermore, in buddhism there are the formless realms, the realsm of hngry ghosts, realms of existence that we cannot interact with as physical human beings.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    In Hinduism, there are infinite realms/dimensions full of infinite life. Its called the Astral.
  • That would coincide with quatum physics and the 11th dimension pretty well. I often wonder if these spiritual masters of thousands of years ago realized things scienets are ust on the verge of understanding today.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    It is not all that important in the here and now, but why not talk about it?
    Or... ever.

    Because it's navel gazing and the Buddha actually taught a lot of interesting things you could be thinking about how to apply to your life rather than dissecting esoterica that effects no one.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited December 2011
    The buddha also said that one should find our own path, find things out for ourself if they help us or hinder us. Take nobodies word for truth, not even his own word or be it a mod or admin.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited December 2011
    Making disparaging reference to my role on the site was even weaker justification than the misdirected Buddha paraphrasing.
  • This is a forum, what is a forum? It is a place where people come to talk about subjects on the internet. What is this forum? It is a buddhist related forum. Somebody came along and asked a question related to buddhism, where is the fault in that? Have some coffee and let things play out unless they break the forum rules...
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    forum rules...
    Well, technically, there is no set in stone rules. Lincoln never closed the thread, he was just said that there is really no point in talking about something unknowable/distant such as rebirth. He never stopped you, and we can now continue this conversation.
  • I just found the statement, 'who cares' rather brusque and abrupt. Not everybody who comes here is highly booke up on buddhism, often beginners will ask questions that people have read many times over or seem somewhat immature, but you have to see it from their point of view.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited December 2011
    I just found the statement, 'who cares' rather brusque and abrupt. Not everybody who comes here is highly booke up on buddhism, often beginners will ask questions that people have read many times over or seem somewhat immature, but you have to see it from their point of view.
    I completely understand, and I don't particularly agree with Lincoln or his actions (although, I don't even believe in reincarnation/literal rebirth). All I'm saying is there is nothing stopping you guys from disregarding what he said and continuing, if you feel that is what you want to do. He left the choice up to you.
  • By the way Mingate, I am aare you have studied other religons and Hinduism is fairly close apart from a few important details to buddhism (obviously as they originated from the same place). But what would you class yourself as religious wise? The infinite realms in hinduism is intriguing.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    edited December 2011
    I consider myself simply a Buddhist, and I (will) attend a Soto Zen Zendo. Also, so that I am not confused with what most Americans see Buddhism as, I tend to add that I am a skeptic/atheist as well, when I am asked. I do/have studied other religions for many reasons. Now, its mainly because I find religion an interesting/very important topic.
  • Fair enough, religion is important to our species and has been for a VERY long time.
    Anyway, going back to the topic the OP posted, I believe in rebirth whereas you do not. If the world were to end, IMO many people would end up in lower formless realms, others may end up in higher formless realms, and then of course there is the possibility that you could be reborn on a distant planet. I do not see why not, but that is my notion.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited December 2011
    To go back to the original question, every molecule in your body is composed of atoms that were forged in the heart of exploding stars billions of years ago. The early universe contained hydrogen and helium, and every other element had to be created inside a star and then spewed out into the universe like a fish spreading its seed into the ocean. Every one of us is a tiny piece of a star that has been reborn as a human being on this planet. We probably contain a tiny part of some alien person who also looked up at the stars and wondered what it all meant.

    So in some unimaginative distant future, our own star may explode, spreading our substance over the universe, or it may eventually fall into a black hole and we go on a stranger journey into another universe entirely. As long as there is a universe, death and rebirth will continue to happen.
  • If the world was to end, what would happen to rebirth?

    World will end. Rebirth will end. All phenomenon have beginning - middle - end.

    Who cares? Who knows? Who says? Who's who?
  • @IronRabbit I disagree that all phenomena have a beginning middle and end. Energy in it's essence is perpetual. It cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred, and it is the most important phenomenon of all.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited December 2011
    It would be so nice if every now and then, Members were to remember that a moderator's word can count for something.
    All we ever get is arguments, and criticism.
    Occasionally, we might just be right - but we still get the barrage of criticism, accusations of throwing our hissy weight about, and veiled insinuations that we interfere/censor/pick on people.

    As it happens - and no, it's neither sucking up, licking 4ss or even being a yes-person - I completely agree with Lincoln on this one: It's an imponderable.
    Why waste your damn time discussing something which has absolutely no worthy or valuable answer - or do you suddenly all know better than the Buddha?
    It would appear you do, as you seem set on ignoring his wise counsel....

    "There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

    "The Buddha-range of the Buddhas[1] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

    "The jhana-range of a person in jhana...[2]

    "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

    "Conjecture about [the origin*, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

    "These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."


    (*"origin etc" would also cover the ending,so I'm given to understand by a Bikkhu.)

    So by all means, carry on with your pointless, aimless and frankly completely irrelevant discussion.

    Moved to General Banter.
    Nothing whatsoever to do with 'Members only'.
  • :dunce: silly old me. Sorry i forget there is always a hierarchy. I have never had a go at someone higher up at me before, bit that statement was very brusque. Maybe he has a point, but the question was asked and look at the conversation that has evolved because of it. Who cares? Quite a few members in fact.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Why? give me a why!

    what's the point of 'caring' about something to which there is absolutely no definitive answer?
    Care more about your life, now, and what you're doing with it!

    We all spend so much time on 'what ifs' and wondering about our future, and we so carelessly forget that the future is made up of perpetual nows. 'Now' is what matters.

    Isn't it? Isn't it what we're constantly reading elsewhere? About being in the moment?
  • edited December 2011
    I thought the Buddha taught about 32 realms of existence, and I remember someone coming up with a quote about beings from other parts of the universe rebirthing here. So if our planet were to be snuffed out, our seed consciousness could continue elsewhere. That's not so imponderable.
  • @IronRabbit I disagree that all phenomena have a beginning middle and end. Energy in it's essence is perpetual. It cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred, and it is the most important phenomenon of all.
    Frequency@ conceptually citing energy as perpetual in refuting the inevitable beginning middle and end of all phenomenon is not completely pointless, aimless and irrelevant - depending on what model of physics you are referring to. In a physics class. On an exam.

    The beginning middle and end of all phenomenon have to do with the inherent emptiness of the existence of even energy - which is afterall a mathematical, conceptual quantity dependent upon impermanent beings who agree on the concept and exist within a shared framework of time. It all ends. And, frankly, since Fede is so world weary with this pursuit - this thread may end sooner than later.....




  • why? well because we are not all strict buddhists, 'lay-buddhist' has the word lay in it for a reason. Many people often like to discuss these matters during the dyay, whilst having time to meditate or being compassionate and wise. At least we are not surfing the net watching porn or abusing people, talking about something that is a part of our religion is not really in my opinion something too wrong for a lay buddhist. If you think so, then let us find out why it is so wrong for ourselves through insight, because surely we are not as advanced as you are.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    Have some coffee and let things play out unless they break the forum rules...
    You seem bent on assuming I'm somehow officiating the discussion with my comments. I'm allowed to talk on here without moderating, right?
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited December 2011
    :dunce: silly old me. Sorry i forget there is always a hierarchy.
    Ironically you're the only one of the two of us interested in bringing it up.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited December 2011
    1st comment - Of course you can post comments, I just found it rather rude.
    2nd comment - You may be wrong in thinking we are the only two people who think such things. Bringing them up is a different matter.
  • I've said this before and I'll say it again. If people feel any given OP is not worth discussing, or is "silly", or "irrelevant to practice", why is it so difficult for them to just leave the thread be, and allow others to enjoy it without gratuitous criticism? If a thread crosses some sort of line, then it can be closed. Otherwise can't everyone be respectful of each others' topic choices? Having a topic turn into a thread full of wrangling over the question of whether or not the topic is pointless really spoils the atmosphere. I would think our staff would want to set a positive example for members. Do you all really want to encourage members to make rude and disparaging comments about each others' choice of topic? What kind of a forum would that be? Not one I would care to participate in.

    This is something that has mystified me since I joined a year ago. :shake:

    @Murasaki337 What I've learned regarding choosing a category in which to post a topic is, that if the topic is speculative in any way ("What would happen to rebirth if the world were to end?"), it goes in General Banter. Even if it's a topic relating to Buddhism, if it involves speculation, it goes in General Banter.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited December 2011
    Then again, he/she could be a beginner so subsequently the thread could technically be posted there also. As a beginner to most things, you are niave and do not understand a lot about what you are a beginner at. So a question of this sort in my opinion does not require such an answer as 'who cares'.

    Yes maybe it is not something deemed positive to dwell on from a buddhist sense, but we are not practicing monks or nuns here for the majority, it is an internet buddhist based forum, where even non-buddhists come. Live and let live.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    [picture of a man beating a dead horse, here]
  • Thank you for the (Hot!) debate everyone. I am not new to Buddhism but I would say I am still in the beginner learning category. :3

    @Kathryn I wasn't thinking about 2012 or some other nonsense. I mean, it is fact that the world will die one day. Even our star and galaxy we live in.

    @Jeffrey I like your post! Thank you.

    @Lincoln I care, this website IS called NEW Buddhist isn't it? ;)

    @Telly03, @ThailandTom I do believe in life elsewhere in our universe, astronomy fascinates me.

    @MindGate I would like to learn more about Hinduism!

    @federica How could i possibly know what everything the Buddha said if I am still learning? It's like me giving you paint so you can learn to paint, but you dident know about the paint brush? You then start to paint with your hands. See how it's going? "Why waste your damn time discussing something which has absolutely no worthy or valuable answer - or do you suddenly all know better than the Buddha?
    It would appear you do, as you seem set on ignoring his wise counsel...." How was I suppose to know this? How can I know better than the Buddha if I haven't even scratched the surface of his teachings?

    @compassionate_warrior General Banter, got it. Thank you! :D

    @ThailandTom Thank you! I liked reading your posts. I didn't mean to create so much friction on this thread. I am quite shocked that the admins/mods would be so negative and offend an OP's question. This is a new Buddhist site, yet i didn't expect to act so -unbuddhist in a way.

    Would @Lincoln like if i greeted everyones question on this forum with "Who cares?" Is this allowed then on this forum?



  • If DD were here he would have posted something like this

    A thicket of wrong views

    "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... does not discern what ideas are fit for attention, or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention, and attends instead to ideas unfit for attention... This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

    "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

    "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones... discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention... He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices."

    — MN 2
  • But he is not here
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited December 2011
    Would @Lincoln like if i greeted everyones question on this forum with "Who cares?"
    No. Nice red herring.
  • MindGateMindGate United States Veteran
    No. Nice red herring.
    Did you go to college and major in English? What's with all these red herrings, anecdotes, officiating, esoterica, disparaging, navel gazing, etc. My little high school mind cannot comprehend it.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited December 2011
    Is this any way to greet a new member, and a beginner Buddhist?

    Welcome, Murasaki. :)

    The OP is typical of the type of beginner's question that examines one or another Buddhist teaching, then tries to take it to its logical end. We've seen this kind of thing before. This is one way of testing a teaching, in this case, one aspect of the principle of rebirth.
    But he is not here
    For which we are eternally grateful to our great admin and mod team. :clap:

    Murasaki, what do you mean by "the world"? Do you mean if our planet were to experience a cataclysm, or do you mean the entire universe, therefore leaving no possibility of rebirth in other galaxies or dimensions? Hmm...(ponder, ponder)...all those consciousnesses would remain in what scientists are now referring to as the universal consciousness field. They would have no way to birth into beings of any sort. If the consciousness field itself continued to exist, that is.

    And if it did, there might be a possibility it would at some point manage to create a new universe.

    Hey, if you wanna speculate, let's go for it and have a speculate party! :D
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    @MindGate Years of moderating forums has taught me that when you're going to take an unpopular position, you choose your words carefully, use as few of them as possible, and keep a list of logical fallacies close at hand.
  • LincLinc Site owner Detroit Moderator
    edited December 2011
    Is this any way to greet a new member, and a beginner Buddhist?
    No... because s/he's been here for a year. :wtf:

    Furthermore, I'm not being rude nor intend to be. I'm saying there is a lot more a new Buddhist should be focused on than weird "what if" situations like the end of the universe. I guess it beats doing a crossword puzzle but I don't think it accomplishes much more than that. I like to think Buddhism is more practical than this.

    I'll bow out now so you can have your meandering pontification in peace. :p
  • You have a point lincoln like everybody else has, yes this type of question could be seen as a question that should have little time invested in it. But the point I was making is that you could have made your point in a les brusque way in which you did.

    The OP has been here for a year, well they have had an account here for a year. I have seen very little posts made by this person, maybe they are a backseat observer, even still one year on a buddhist forum in my opinion is still very much a beginner. Heck, I have been involved with buddhism for over 3 years and I would classify myself as a beginner.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    edited December 2011
    Why do people keep rebirth confined to this planet?
    Agree. Or, for that matter, this particular time line? We just assume time runs in a linear fashion, but what do we really know?
  • if the world was to end that would be the karmic result.

    not just yours but everyones. karma is an impersonal process of finites meeting finites meeting finites meeting finites (for infinity).

    but there is no true end or beginning. for to assert such view is to assert duality and inherency.

    thus it is more important to shine your awareness on your inherent assumptions. why rebirth? what is being reborn? also from what point of view should we understand rebirth?

    we must truly understand emptiness/dependent origination to understand how rebirth occurs. without such correct non dual teachings we are just bashing our heads against the wall.

    why is there an end? why is there a beginning? for whom is there an end and beginning? time for more sitting.
  • Speculation about this does not bring us closer toward enlightenment and doesn't help in any meaningful way. You can say it means something, but it is just mental masturbation.

    We are left to wonder about the assumptions of the OP about rebirth, karma, etc. . And then you bring in others with different assumptions. Now it is a mess. You will not find a single answer to this question. And in the end you will be none the better. You may even choose an answer which resonates with you, and you will carry that belief with you for the rest of your days. But for what purpose?

    That's the big picture here. What is the significance of this? What virtue, meaning, etc. do you hope to gain from pursuit of this answer?
  • I didn't mean the end of the universe, just our world when the sun becomes a supernova that engulfs Earth. Has it been a year already? Time does fly by doesn't it. :p I'm sorry Lincoln, I did not mean for any confrontation. I have read all of your posts and read some more on rebirth. I suppose we wouldn't ever know. :3

    But at least this isn't a Christainty forum, I'm pretty sure if I asked similar questions on that sort of forum I would be put in my place ha ha.

    Thank you though for everyone's replies, you have pointed me in the right direction! And I learned a new saying saying. Red herring. ;)
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    The wikipedia entry is a good primer on traditional Buddhist cosmology, both spacial and temporal.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology
  • Why do people keep rebirth confined to this planet? There is obviously some other forms of life out in the universe, the laws of the universe are not confined to the earth, so the laws of buddhism such as karma and rebirth I believe would not be also. Thinking that everything happens only here is similar to how people use to think years gone, that everything revolved around earth.
    One reason may be that while many people have past life recollections, no one has past life recollections from other worlds. No one remembers being Jabba the Hutt in a past life, for example.
This discussion has been closed.