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BUDDHIST Packing Pistol Shows America's Warm Embrace of Guns
On the news tonight...the city I live in has had 9 shooting victims in the past week. 6 of them have died. All have been within about 2-3 miles of my apartment. But don't worry, the police are "working tirelessly" to protect us!
Maybe if one just tried to "get along" with his assailant there wouldn't be these problems We as Buddhist may have high ideals but the majority of the world does not. Your beliefs have to be practicle and should make sense. One has to find the middle way between the puer and the senex.
Yes, But fortunately I'm spending Christmas and the next few weeks in Cleveland, which is not exactly a nursery, but it's better. Akron is heavily gang-ridden. At least I'll be moving to the South in a couple months.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I stated this in the other gun post but personal stuff vs. someones life or getten beat to a pulp vs. taking another life. The use of a gun doesn't add up in these situations.
9 shooting victims in the past week. Were they all random shootings or are they gang related targeting specific individuals? My point being just because a gang member gets shot does that mean you are more likely to be a target?
If you get held up or mugged and pull your gun what are the odds of chasing the person away vs having a gun pulled on you in return? If you pull it on someone in your neighborhood and chase them away is that the end of it or have you just put a target on your back?
IMO guns are trouble and create more problems than they solve. There are some psychotic people out there who just want to kill others, maybe a gun would protect you in that situation, maybe not. There are more criminals who use a gun to get people to do what they want and don't intend to use it, if someone pulls a gun on them though they have no compunction about using it. Bullets fly and can hit bystanders. Does carrying a gun make a bad situation better or worse?
Aren't the Swiss known for being extraordinarily law-abiding, and isn't it a fairly regimented society? That and other aspects of the national character could account for why there aren't crimes involving guns. Switzerland is also pretty homogeneous (except for a significant influx of Tibetans the last couple of decades), and enjoys the highest standard of living in Europe, which also may have something to do with it. Someone commented on one of these gun threads that England doesn't have guns, but the gangs there have knives. I would guess that Switzerland doesn't even have gangs with or without knives. If I'm way off base here, someone with experience in Switzerland please feel free to correct me.
Where in any of this is protecting my family prohibited?
It's about the first precept. Whether or not killing in self-defense or defense of family is ok has been a hotly-debated question on this forum in the past. But we're also discussing this from the perspective of whether or not arming everyone is going to make the US safer for anyone.
Clearly, though, some members have answered the OP question: "could any Buddhists here see themselves owning a handgun" with a resounding Yes. I have no judgment about this, the question was intended mainly as a poll. Thank you to those who answered and gave their reasoning. I'm enjoying the thread.
There are very few swiz members lol.. I expect there are gangs, like in pretty much every country, also guns and knives. But the level of crime is very low. Switzerland is renound for being secure, it's banking system and they also have a mass nuclear bunker system in the mountains for a huge part of the population for such an occurrance. I do not know why Switzerland is so 'wise' and moral as a nation, but we could all take a leaf from their book that is for sure. But as I said, I suspect that they also have gangs and guns etc, it is inevitable. They also have amazing watches
Knife crime in the UK was bad only in certain areas (taking into account the UK can fit into most states of the USA for size), but as I do not watch the news now, I am out of the loop. I know the police were hot in cracking down on knife crime as so many kids were joining area code gangs and carrying knives because they thought they had to. There was even stab proof hoodies being marketed and sold at one point. It would not stop you from being stabbed, but slashing would be no problem. Here is a video anyway of a typical London issue...
My thought was that if Switzerland has a high standard of living and there's not much disparity between rich and poor, then there would be less crime. If people don't feel marginalized, there would be much less of a tendency to form gangs, I would think.
That makes a whole lot of sense, where you have a poplation/society that is combined with vastly rich and then vastly poor living side by side, you often get a lot of crime. South Africa, parts of USA, parts of the UK, parts of the middle east etc. SO yes, your point is very valid.
22 percent of the Swiss population are immigrants, mostly from Germany and Italy. Yes they have gangs, and knives... it's not just all milk and chocolate! I don't know how they get along so well, it must be the upbringing?
It is a very small country, and correct me if I am wrong landlocked (I have not looked at a map in a while). My grandmother was German and she moved to the UK and married my grandfather after WII. She always said that the english are an island race and have a certain mentality. You could think of the US as a HUGE island. Maybe it has something to do with that, I do not know.
I just had a thought after reading the article in the OP. It sounds a little like there's a marketing ploy going on. Like the gun industry is trying to reach outside its traditional demographic. You know how sometimes people in business and marketing talk about expanding their target audience, adapting the product or the message to appeal beyond their usual customer base? So now, the gun industry is trying to reach Buddhists, women and gays? Does anyone find this strange or cause for concern, or a reason to adjust our thinking on the issue?
In the West, and maybe especially in the US, we live in such a thick soup of advertising and marketing, it's hard to get a perspective over it. How would we know, if we've been programmed since infancy to swallow ads (and the media in general), if the whole pro-gun mentality were in fact another big marketing ploy, another manipulation of public consciousness?
That is a great point. Seeing as I studied graphic design at university I know exactly how advertising and the wheel of capitalism works. This is why in the west people are also so obsessd with their looks, what they wear etc, and now I guess also guns. It is a matter of being conditioned.
That is a great point. Seeing as I studied graphic design at university I know exactly how advertising and the wheel of capitalism works. This is why in the west people are also so obsessd with their looks, what they wear etc, and now I guess also guns. It is a matter of being conditioned.
How interesting, to have an inside view. I don't know about elsewhere, but here in the US they have psychologists working on the advertising team, too, to figure out how best to zero in on people's weaknesses. It seems almost sinister.
Oh trust me, it is sinister which is one reason why i left uni 4 months before the end of my degree. They target people, using their ideologies and many other methods. It is far more complex than simple words and colours. It goes way back to our history and even our instincts. Many graphic designers in my opinion have lost their morals, if they had any to begin with. I we a vase study to review in university that was a re-design of Mcdonolds by a company named 'boxer'. They had to re-design the packaging and advertising to make the food appear healthy and fresh, the food basically did not change too much, but to people without a trained eye for design and advertising, they would not realize what was going on. the result, more people eating leathal food and a corporation getting more money...
But there must be other applications for a degree in graphic design than the corporate ad industry? Designing logos and ads for non-profits or institutions, idk. A friend of mine was the staff graphic designer for a big hospital. She designed all their brochures, ads, etc. She said it paid really well.
Yes, it was one reason why I left. I can think of about six reasons off the top of my head as of now why I left. It was a very spontaneous decision, along with the 'I am moving 6,000 miles away to live' a few months later.
9 shooting victims in the past week. Were they all random shootings or are they gang related targeting specific individuals? My point being just because a gang member gets shot does that mean you are more likely to be a target?
If you get held up or mugged and pull your gun what are the odds of chasing the person away vs having a gun pulled on you in return? If you pull it on someone in your neighborhood and chase them away is that the end of it or have you just put a target on your back?
Bullets fly and can hit bystanders. Does carrying a gun make a bad situation better or worse?
Some random, some targeted, some gang. One woman apparently targeted in her home had her house riddled with hundreds of bullets and she was somehow only grazed. An infant was hit by a stray bullet and killed in a separate incident. Little girl was shot for unknown reasons as she walked down the street in the same county. Actually, as far as I know, very few of the actual victims were gang members, if any.
To address your second question, it frankly depends on how good of a shot and how good of a draw you are. If you're like a lot of military and NRA folks I know, you can draw in the blink of an eye.
To your last question, and more morbidly, it depends on what type of ammunition you use. If you're a gun owner and carry for protection AND you load full metal jackets, you are a moron. I carry hollow points and pre-frag ammunition (FBI uses it) which is specifically designed not to penetrate multiple people and hit bystanders.
I attend the local county gunshow about once a month. Tens of thousands of guns of every type fill the fairgrounds. One jovial police officer stands guard at the whole place stamping hands and chatting up the customers. There's never been a shooting there. A few months ago, I attended an NRA banquet which my fiancee helped organize. Again, dozens of guns and ammunition for auction, and probably 50% or more of the attendees carrying loaded firearms on them. Lots of children in attendance too. Not a single gun was drawn in anger or person shot. Compare that to the downtown clubs where guns are strictly forbidden and the clientele is of dubious character. Police routinely have to go in, sometimes with tear gas to quell fights and violence. The safest place to be is in a room full of NRA retirees.
It comes down to personal responsibility. Everyone recognizes that bad people are out there, and the debate at its core, comes down to whether or not one believes that responsible, law-abiding citizens should be permitted to defend themselves against bad people in the absence of authorities.
I have a beautiful fiancee and both of us work and live in zip codes of blemished populaces. To think that I will let her or myself or future children be defenseless is unconscionable.
As for the marketing business, most serious gun owners are not dupes. They tend to be stingy and careful about their purchases, and gun manufacturers are successful because of quality, not because of cheap marketing ploys. No different than cars.
The local news is their unintended best advertising.
Right,Knight, I wasn't talking about "serious gun owners", but about the gen'l public that gets the impression from the news that life is unsafe and that "if guns were outlawed, outlaws would have guns". Average people like some of us here who are thinking about getting a gun for protection or for protecting the family. I wonder if a marketing pro came up with that quote, the one about outlaws.
Right,Knight, I wasn't talking about "serious gun owners", but about the gen'l public that gets the impression from the news that life is unsafe and that "if guns were outlawed, outlaws would have guns". Average people like some of us here who are thinking about getting a gun for protection or for protecting the family. I wonder if a marketing pro came up with that quote, the one about outlaws.
Well it's highly effective, and difficult to argue with. Statistically, the violent crime rates are much lower nationally than they were in the 70s, but gun ownership has exploded since then. I will not linger on whether or not that fact is simply correlation or not. Today is much safer in the States than it was in the 70s and 80s. So it really is a matter of perception that thing are somehow worse. In the same way that perceptions of the economy are different than reality often, with people thinking it is either far worse or better than it really is.
I know a lot of people with guns, but very few are "serious gun owners." They are pretty average people who have a gun or two for home protection, and don't give it much more thought than that.
I don't know of any organization or company that started that line about outlaws. But is it false?
It seems to be false, if you look at countries where guns really are outlawed. There was another discussion in which people said that in the UK the outlaws don't have guns, they have knives.
There's a lot more drug and gang activity now than in the 70's, I think that's one thing that affects people's perception. LBJ's "Great Society" programs, the War On Poverty, plentiful college scholarships, etc. helped give people a stake in society, so gang activity wasn't as strong or widespread, I think.
Those countries have no history of widespread gun ownership though. In the same way that countries with little to no automobile ownership will have fewer auto fatalities. Nobody would suggest that cars should be outlawed for the sake of safety, even though deaths from car accidents far outweigh gun deaths. It would be not only impossible, but an extremely violent undertaking to get rid of guns in this country.
Bad people with evil intentions will get a hold of weapons no matter what. It's absolutely illegal to sell firearms to felons and minors in the States. And yet both groups get a hold of guns.
It is just built into the culture there, I think it was simon who proposed a plan to actually de-gun the US, not fully but handguns and harder restrictions on shotguns etc. It would have to be done over time, a long period of time.
Dakini, in the UK some hangs have handguns, but it is rare. A lot of it is knife based, but there are guns in circulation.
Yes, exactly. So how would preventing everyone else from having guns in a place of prolific ownership solve anything?
They're able to get guns because guns are easy to get. They can buy them at gun stores, and no one checks their background. With tight gun control, that wouldn't happen. The terrain would change radically. Handgun vendors would be shut down.
@ThailandTom Yes, Simon proposed a plan for disarming US citizens, but someone commented that compliance would be very challenging. So I don't know how practical the suggestion would be. It would be so easy for people to hide guns if their homes were to be inspected, for example. It's a thorny issue.
Yes, exactly. So how would preventing everyone else from having guns in a place of prolific ownership solve anything?
They're able to get guns because guns are easy to get. They can buy them at gun stores, and no one checks their background. With tight gun control, that wouldn't happen. The terrain would change radically. Handgun vendors would be shut down.
@ThailandTom Yes, Simon proposed a plan for disarming US citizens, but someone commented that compliance would be very challenging. So I don't know how practical the suggestion would be. It would be so easy for people to hide guns if their homes were to be inspected, for example. It's a thorny issue.
Well it's a pipe dream. There are too many unregistered guns, old guns, inherited guns, etc. I know I certainly wouldn't comply with such silliness. If any such draconian law would outlaw guns, I'd immediately report all mine "missing" or "stolen" and carry on.
"They can buy them at gun stores and no one checks their backgrounds. With tight gun control, that wouldn't happen."
But there's already federal laws in place that demand background checks at gun store counters. Making a law does not prevent someone from breaking another law already well established. I've never seen a store be shady about such things, but I'm sure they exist. The real villains in illegal trading are the schmucks at the Justice Department, who strong-armed by-the-books gun store owners to sell to Mexican cartel members. Google "fast and furious."
Couple hundred Mexicans and a handful of Americans murdered as a result, but hey, it's those mean, nasty, hate-filled NRA legal gun owners that are the problem!
Yea, screw it. It is a pipe dream. It is as much a part of your culture and every day life as thanks giving and christmas. It is like herpese, it is here to stay. Anyway, within the next 50 years, the west along with the UK will have crumbled somewhat IMO, the dollar will no longer be the currency of choice, and the US will not be the big fish that it is now, even now it is more of an image of the past. So maybe you may want to stock up on guns when shit hits the fan, because I am guessing things may get ugly.
And not everyone has herpese, yet lol.. But I get your point. Still, you can see where I am coming from I hope, it is something that is almost impossible to get rid of, this subculture. If anything it is growing.
Hey, it's not part of my culture and my everyday life! The US is made up of many subcultures. The gun fetish is one of them.
Well I prefer to call it a liberty fetish, but that's just me.
I'll let one of the original extremists and fetishists speak for himself...
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
Great find telly, simply great. Yes it makes light of a serious situation, but he makes a very good point. That is basically it in a nutshell. I have not heard of eddie in ages
me, no. For a variety of reasons. One, I could end up in jail, two, my partner ould get very angry at least, three, it may go off in an accident, four, if the worse came to the worse I would use it on a living being and five I may get attached to it.
I'm still laughing over all of this, really now. Should there be tighter restrictions on things such as handguns? Sure I'm sure we could all benefit from that. There seems to be more of the same "If you own a gun you are a violent and bad person" or even "guns make people violent and bad"
Fact of the matter is, if people want to kill people, they will do just that. Take away all the guns? people will use knives. Take those away? rocks and fists, and so on and so forth. Violence is a part of reality all of you seem to think you can just wish away. Well sorry to break it to you, humanity will always have a violent side to it, just accept it and move on. I am overjoyed if you have the luxury to live a peaceful and pacifist lifestyle, but it is not like that for everyone. It is not that I enjoy violence (which to me seems to be what all of you think of gun owners) I am just prepared to handle myself should ever a violent situation occur.
You can argue about it all day, but at the end of the day not a thing will be achieved other than a build-up of resentment among members here. Would it be hunky-dory if one day all of us no longer needed weapons of any kind, and live in freedom and peace? Of course! I would embrace such a day without hesitation. Sadly, reality is not so kind. The world can be a very violent, bloody, and a horrifying place. I would gladly lay down my arms if I knew I never needed them again, but thinking that day will ever truly come is quite frankly naive and foolhardy. I will live as peacefully as I can, but if ever innocents or myself have their lives threatened, I can be confident that I will handle the situation to the best of my abilities. I will use whatever means possible to end it all without violence, but I will always be ready to act should the need arise to draw a weapon.
Are there bad people out there who do bad things with weapons? of course there are, that has always been the case during human history and I feel it will continue on into the distant future. But you must realize that among weapon owners, they are a very, very small minority that just gives the rest of us a bad name. Not to mention they get all of the attention in a negative way since a regular weapons owner is to everyone else, a normal and law abiding citizen.
As I have said elsewhere, in a life or death situation, you do not have the luxury of ethics either. Live or die, make your choice. Coming at it from a strictly Buddhist point of view though... I am not a monk, so I do not see why I should have to be completely pacifist either. If I must, I will stop bad people from doing bad things... It is not a matter of legality or even ethics. It is just the right action to follow.
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
During the civil wars in feudal Japan, an invading army would quickly sweep into a town and take control. In one particular village, everyone fled just before the army arrived - everyone except the Zen master. Curious about this old fellow, the general went to the temple to see for himself what kind of man this master was. When he wasn't treated with the deference and submissiveness to which he was accustomed, the general burst into anger. "You fool," he shouted as he reached for his sword, "don't you realize you are standing before a man who could run you through without blinking an eye!" But despite the threat, the master seemed unmoved. "And do you realize," the master replied calmly, "that you are standing before a man who can be run through without blinking an eye?"
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
"Fact of the matter is, if people want to kill people, they will do just that. Take away all the guns? people will use knives. Take those away? rocks and fists, and so on and so forth."
I'd rather have somebody assault me with rocks and fists.
"Could any Buddhists here see themselves owning a handgun, or any gun"?
Yes.
I'm not dictating to anyone,
CW, I don't understand what you mean. I certainly don't feel dictated to. It was stated (not by you) in this thread rather tersly "Try actually reading what's written, not what you want to hear" so in that vein I directly addressed your question. I feel buddhists can own and do own guns. All the best, Todd
OK. I'm not sure whose post this is referring to, I thought maybe it was referring to something in the OP. Never mind. ...Carry on. Don't mind me...
So Buddhist shouldn't own guns? Yet another concept of what a Buddhist is. I guess we have to define Buddhism properly.
ALERT: Before I am chided into rereading this entire thread again it is primarily OFFTOPIC! Hey Mountains! This was my post, it was more thinking out loud than directed at anyone specifically. I find there is unspoken bias about what buddhism is or should be. For many buddhist owning a gun is decidely unbuddhist. To me this is just another concept of who or what we are. Concepts narrow and constrict us. Just as other people have concepts about buddhists (that aren't well founded or even true) we ourselves create and project our own concepts of what a "true" buddhist is. I guess I am more of a Buddhist without beliefs type. I can shoot a gun, have a shot of whiskey, defend my family and still hold that inconstance, not-self, the 4NT's, the 8 fold and karma (the here and now kind) are worthy of my deep investigation and respect. Ultimately it must usable and practical, otherwise there is no point. What is the point of philosophy you can't use? It's like communism, looks great on paper but in practical terms it doesn't work because it ignores the human conditon. For me buddhism can't do that. It must be functional, practical and make sense. My beliefs alone, no offense to anyone
ALERT: Before I am chided into rereading this entire thread again it is primarily OFFTOPIC! Hey Mountains! This was my post, it was more thinking out loud than directed at anyone specifically. I find there is unspoken bias about what buddhism is or should be. For many buddhist owning a gun is decidely unbuddhist. To me this is just another concept of who or what we are. Concepts narrow and constrict us. Just as other people have concepts about buddhists (that aren't well founded or even true) we ourselves create and project our own concepts of what a "true" buddhist is. I guess I am more of a Buddhist without beliefs type. I can shoot a gun, have a shot of whiskey, defend my family and still hold that inconstance, not-self, the 4NT's, the 8 fold and karma (the here and now kind) are worthy of my deep investigation and respect. Ultimately it must usable and practical, otherwise there is no point. What is the point of philosophy you can't use? It's like communism, looks great on paper but in practical terms it doesn't work because it ignores the human conditon. For me buddhism can't do that. It must be functional, practical and make sense. My beliefs alone, no offense to anyone
Yes, exactly. That is something people tend to forget here. That you can still be a human being and follow the 4 NT's and the 8 fold path quite well. We're not all monks here, why should I abandon my middle way for someone else's?
Comments
We as Buddhist may have high ideals but the majority of the world does not.
Your beliefs have to be practicle and should make sense.
One has to find the middle way between the puer and the senex.
9 shooting victims in the past week. Were they all random shootings or are they gang related targeting specific individuals? My point being just because a gang member gets shot does that mean you are more likely to be a target?
If you get held up or mugged and pull your gun what are the odds of chasing the person away vs having a gun pulled on you in return? If you pull it on someone in your neighborhood and chase them away is that the end of it or have you just put a target on your back?
IMO guns are trouble and create more problems than they solve. There are some psychotic people out there who just want to kill others, maybe a gun would protect you in that situation, maybe not. There are more criminals who use a gun to get people to do what they want and don't intend to use it, if someone pulls a gun on them though they have no compunction about using it. Bullets fly and can hit bystanders. Does carrying a gun make a bad situation better or worse?
lol
Clearly, though, some members have answered the OP question: "could any Buddhists here see themselves owning a handgun" with a resounding Yes. I have no judgment about this, the question was intended mainly as a poll. Thank you to those who answered and gave their reasoning. I'm enjoying the thread.
Knife crime in the UK was bad only in certain areas (taking into account the UK can fit into most states of the USA for size), but as I do not watch the news now, I am out of the loop. I know the police were hot in cracking down on knife crime as so many kids were joining area code gangs and carrying knives because they thought they had to. There was even stab proof hoodies being marketed and sold at one point. It would not stop you from being stabbed, but slashing would be no problem. Here is a video anyway of a typical London issue...
In the West, and maybe especially in the US, we live in such a thick soup of advertising and marketing, it's hard to get a perspective over it. How would we know, if we've been programmed since infancy to swallow ads (and the media in general), if the whole pro-gun mentality were in fact another big marketing ploy, another manipulation of public consciousness?
But there must be other applications for a degree in graphic design than the corporate ad industry? Designing logos and ads for non-profits or institutions, idk. A friend of mine was the staff graphic designer for a big hospital. She designed all their brochures, ads, etc. She said it paid really well.
To address your second question, it frankly depends on how good of a shot and how good of a draw you are. If you're like a lot of military and NRA folks I know, you can draw in the blink of an eye.
To your last question, and more morbidly, it depends on what type of ammunition you use. If you're a gun owner and carry for protection AND you load full metal jackets, you are a moron. I carry hollow points and pre-frag ammunition (FBI uses it) which is specifically designed not to penetrate multiple people and hit bystanders.
I attend the local county gunshow about once a month. Tens of thousands of guns of every type fill the fairgrounds. One jovial police officer stands guard at the whole place stamping hands and chatting up the customers. There's never been a shooting there. A few months ago, I attended an NRA banquet which my fiancee helped organize. Again, dozens of guns and ammunition for auction, and probably 50% or more of the attendees carrying loaded firearms on them. Lots of children in attendance too. Not a single gun was drawn in anger or person shot. Compare that to the downtown clubs where guns are strictly forbidden and the clientele is of dubious character. Police routinely have to go in, sometimes with tear gas to quell fights and violence. The safest place to be is in a room full of NRA retirees.
It comes down to personal responsibility. Everyone recognizes that bad people are out there, and the debate at its core, comes down to whether or not one believes that responsible, law-abiding citizens should be permitted to defend themselves against bad people in the absence of authorities.
I have a beautiful fiancee and both of us work and live in zip codes of blemished populaces. To think that I will let her or myself or future children be defenseless is unconscionable.
The local news is their unintended best advertising.
I know a lot of people with guns, but very few are "serious gun owners." They are pretty average people who have a gun or two for home protection, and don't give it much more thought than that.
I don't know of any organization or company that started that line about outlaws. But is it false?
There's a lot more drug and gang activity now than in the 70's, I think that's one thing that affects people's perception. LBJ's "Great Society" programs, the War On Poverty, plentiful college scholarships, etc. helped give people a stake in society, so gang activity wasn't as strong or widespread, I think.
Bad people with evil intentions will get a hold of weapons no matter what. It's absolutely illegal to sell firearms to felons and minors in the States. And yet both groups get a hold of guns.
Dakini, in the UK some hangs have handguns, but it is rare. A lot of it is knife based, but there are guns in circulation.
@ThailandTom Yes, Simon proposed a plan for disarming US citizens, but someone commented that compliance would be very challenging. So I don't know how practical the suggestion would be. It would be so easy for people to hide guns if their homes were to be inspected, for example. It's a thorny issue.
"They can buy them at gun stores and no one checks their backgrounds. With tight gun control, that wouldn't happen."
But there's already federal laws in place that demand background checks at gun store counters. Making a law does not prevent someone from breaking another law already well established. I've never seen a store be shady about such things, but I'm sure they exist. The real villains in illegal trading are the schmucks at the Justice Department, who strong-armed by-the-books gun store owners to sell to Mexican cartel members. Google "fast and furious."
Couple hundred Mexicans and a handful of Americans murdered as a result, but hey, it's those mean, nasty, hate-filled NRA legal gun owners that are the problem!
I'll let one of the original extremists and fetishists speak for himself...
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
- George Washington
Yes.
Fact of the matter is, if people want to kill people, they will do just that. Take away all the guns? people will use knives. Take those away? rocks and fists, and so on and so forth. Violence is a part of reality all of you seem to think you can just wish away. Well sorry to break it to you, humanity will always have a violent side to it, just accept it and move on. I am overjoyed if you have the luxury to live a peaceful and pacifist lifestyle, but it is not like that for everyone. It is not that I enjoy violence (which to me seems to be what all of you think of gun owners) I am just prepared to handle myself should ever a violent situation occur.
You can argue about it all day, but at the end of the day not a thing will be achieved other than a build-up of resentment among members here. Would it be hunky-dory if one day all of us no longer needed weapons of any kind, and live in freedom and peace? Of course! I would embrace such a day without hesitation. Sadly, reality is not so kind. The world can be a very violent, bloody, and a horrifying place. I would gladly lay down my arms if I knew I never needed them again, but thinking that day will ever truly come is quite frankly naive and foolhardy. I will live as peacefully as I can, but if ever innocents or myself have their lives threatened, I can be confident that I will handle the situation to the best of my abilities. I will use whatever means possible to end it all without violence, but I will always be ready to act should the need arise to draw a weapon.
Are there bad people out there who do bad things with weapons? of course there are, that has always been the case during human history and I feel it will continue on into the distant future. But you must realize that among weapon owners, they are a very, very small minority that just gives the rest of us a bad name. Not to mention they get all of the attention in a negative way since a regular weapons owner is to everyone else, a normal and law abiding citizen.
As I have said elsewhere, in a life or death situation, you do not have the luxury of ethics either. Live or die, make your choice. Coming at it from a strictly Buddhist point of view though... I am not a monk, so I do not see why I should have to be completely pacifist either. If I must, I will stop bad people from doing bad things... It is not a matter of legality or even ethics. It is just the right action to follow.
To me, at least.
I'd rather have somebody assault me with rocks and fists.
I don't understand what you mean. I certainly don't feel dictated to.
It was stated (not by you) in this thread rather tersly "Try actually reading what's written, not what you want to hear" so in that vein I directly addressed your question. I feel buddhists can own and do own guns.
All the best,
Todd
Never mind. ...Carry on. Don't mind me...
Before I am chided into rereading this entire thread again
it is primarily OFFTOPIC! Hey Mountains!
This was my post, it was more thinking out loud than directed at anyone specifically. I find there is unspoken bias about what buddhism is or should be. For many buddhist owning a gun is decidely unbuddhist. To me this is just another concept of who or what we are. Concepts narrow and constrict us. Just as other people have concepts about buddhists (that aren't well founded or even true) we ourselves create and project our own concepts of what a "true" buddhist is. I guess I am more of a Buddhist without beliefs type. I can shoot a gun, have a shot of whiskey, defend my family and still hold that inconstance, not-self, the 4NT's, the 8 fold and karma (the here and now kind) are worthy of my deep investigation and respect. Ultimately it must usable and practical, otherwise there is no point. What is the point of philosophy you can't use? It's like communism, looks great on paper but in practical terms it doesn't work because it ignores the human conditon. For me buddhism can't do that. It must be functional, practical and make sense. My beliefs alone, no offense to anyone