What are your thoughts on Islam and the Qur'an ?

PremaSagar

What are you thoughts ?

Telly03

You can claim it to be an authority... or not

taiyaki

I like the sufis. Do they count?

Jeffrey

I think remembering to pray five times can be good if you have generous prayers and mindfulness.

Arjquad

I know many Muslims and they are nice people, as for the Qur'an I've read half of it but stoped it was basically repeating the phrase "I am your god worship me or be tortured forever" over and over again.

DaltheJigsaw

It's all good, depending on how you use it.

Dakini

I know many Muslims and they are nice people, as for the Qur'an I've read half of it but stoped it was basically repeating the phrase "I am your god worship me or be tortured forever" over and over again.

I've read part of the Koran, and didn't run into any of that. But all the Abrahamic religions started out with that, didn't they? Look at the Old Testament.

But the Sufis are fascinating, aren't they?

Bekenze

Islam can be a force for the good or the bad, depending on whom is using it and how it is being used.

A good source for rules on how to run a country? Not really.
A good source for ethics and self-control? Partially.


A few of the good examples:

Mohammad had a neighbor who was Jewish. As the story goes, Mohammad gave him a gift every day and visited him when he was sick, even though the Jewish man didn't really think that highly of Mohammad. Also, unlike most rulers, as the story goes, Mohammad wore normal clothes and lived a normal life, rather than being rich and living luxuriously.

Islam teaches you to not be attached to the worldly things. It teaches you self-control (Ramadan, as example). Islam teaches you to stay away from the things which could potentially harmful or mind-controlling (such as useless entertainment). It teaches you to be generous and donate. It teaches you many good things.

A few of the bad examples:

The legal system. (Strict laws, many for women)
The justice system. (Death penalty)
The concept of Hell.

Arjquad

. I've read part of the Koran, and didn't run into any of that.


I think it gets that way more into the middle of it.

Bekenze

If you do not mind mine asking, PremaSagar; what has brought about this sudden interest in Islam of yours?

compassionate_warrior

I don't think Islam should be a bogeyman. Islam wasn't an big issue until 9/11. And lets remembmer that there are many sects in Islam, some liberal, some conservative. There's nothing in the Koran AFAIK that says women have to cover themselves up completely. The Koran doesn't mandate the hijab. And I just read recently that much of the morality isn't in the Koran, it's in a separate text called "The Traditions". Iran was Islamic, but before the Taliban women were fairly Westernized, didn't cover themselves, and got higher education, some even coming to the West for university. This is what I heard some Iranian women saying years ago. Those who lived during the liberal period resent the image in the West of Islam equating to the oppression of women. A study of Near East history might be more instructive than a study of the Koran. Or they should go hand-in-hand.

The concept of hell? Is it very different from the Christian or Jewish concepts of Hell?

Bekenze

Islam believes that the afterlife is not the "Heaven or Hell." Afterlife is representative of how you lived your life. Good deeds, good rewards. Bad deeds (including lack of faith, the big one), punishments. It is not same for everyone. All sins can be forgiven though, except for one - not believing in Allah and Mohammad as prophet.

robot

@compassionate_warrior.
It seems that you are suggesting that Iran is under Taliban rule. A quick scan of wiki shows that Iran has been hostile to the Taliban and nearly went to war with them over a hostage taking incident some years ago. Fwiw

compassionate_warrior

I was thinking of Ayatollah Khomeini and his successor, that whole fundamentalist movement. I may be confusing the Taliban with that. They're similar in their ultra-conservatism.

BonsaiDoug

I don't think Islam should be a bogeyman.

I agree. But it seems that sometimes all we see is the "radical" side of Islam. Also (I believe?) you can not separate Islam from Sharia Law. And to non-Muslims, Sharia Law comes across as very harsh and unforgiving. Especially to women.

compassionate_warrior

Also (I believe?) you can not separate Islam from Sharia Law. And to non-Muslims, Sharia Law comes across as very harsh and unforgiving. Especially to women.

Is that true, though? I don't think all Muslim nations use Sharia law. Or historically, some haven't. Now, with the turn toward fundamentalism, Sharia is becoming more widespread. But the point of my earlier post was to question the Islam = Sharia law idea, first alluded to by Bekenze. Under the Shah of Iran, Islam didn't = Sharia law. I don't think Sharia is the law in Oman (or is it Bahrain?), which has done a lot to attract foreign residents. I think we need to research this before making sweeping assumptions.

BonsaiDoug

I think we need to research this before making sweeping assumptions.

No doubt. That's why I put the "I believe?" in my post. While I personally do not know, I wonder if this adds to the boogeyman factor?

Telly03

Sharia law by country (source = wiki)

Jeffrey

Here's Cat Stevens now Yusaf Islam

Bekenze

@Jeffrey

Too bad music is banned by certain sects of Islam. Its considered haraam.

Jeffrey

Theravadan buddhism bans music too at least if you take those precepts beyond the five.

Bekenze

This is for any Muslim, though. Not Imams or priests or anything. Normal people. You or me.

compassionate_warrior

This is for any Muslim, though. Not Imams or priests or anything. Normal people. You or me.

I remember hearing about that. But in one of the countries, maybe Aghanistan or Iran/Iraq, a local version of "America's Got Talent" has become popular. Both men and women perform. I see on the map that Afghanistan is marked as having exceptions, so maybe it's there. I also remember reading that after the US brought about some changes in one of those countries, music was one of the first things to make a comeback. The population really missed music.

There have been so many changes in those countries though, back and forth, I can't keep up with it. So it's possible this info I'm recalling is out of date now.

ThailandTom

I have not read one word of the quran, but I have spoken many many words to muslim friends in England. One in particular who was probably one of the funniest and most selfless person I knew. She was great, we still talk now actually. She had to flee Iraq quite a few years ago because of the amount of accidental killings in the war and stuff. Now she lives in Kensigton in London, which is a very wealthy and affluent area, so her family must have been in the oil industry or something.

But I also had a muslim girlfriend when I was 15. She was a bit crazy, harmless to anyone else, but she did selfharm a few times. But was always upbeat and smiling, making jokes. We once joked on the bus to college one day, she said 'don't worry, I am not going to blow the bus up'. Her family were originally from Indonesia.

So, the Quran, I know little of, Islam I also know little of, but every muslim I have ever met or known personally has been a decent human being. But of course, like with every religion, race whatever, you have people who will carry out acts of evil. I would go by what the dalai lama says, that all religions (those that are not sects or cults), have the ability to bring out the pure goodness in a person.

Piper42

I don't know enough about it as a religion to comment. But I think that most Muslims are not the extremists the West (US of America) specifically makes them out to be! I do find Sufism very interesting.

ThailandTom

The muslim brother hood is very open about their ideology and their plans, they are the ones to watch out for, not your everyday muslim. My ex gf use to prey I think it was 5 times a day everyday, I don't know. But she was also the oen who introduced me into ecstasy so go figure lol.

BonsaiDoug

The muslim brother hood is very open about their ideology and their plans, they are the ones to watch out for, not your everyday muslim.

Just FYI, here is their official English website: http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

Bekenze

Perhaps an over-generalization, but I like Muslims (the ones I have met).

Raven

I think every religion/organization has people who make it look bad. I think it's harmful to generalize an entire (massive) religious body based on the actions of the extremist fringe. It would be like judging all Christians by Fred Phelps. I grew up (and still live) in a very multi-cultural area, and have met positive and negative of pretty much every group out there.

ThailandTom

I watched a 1 hour documentary about the muslim brotherhood, it was on the BBC world news channel and interviewed members of the brotherhood. A website can say what it likes, it is faceless, but these people were very open about what the brotherhood was about, be in it asia, the middle east or the west.

But as I have said, every muslim I have met has been a decent enough human being.

federica

What are you thoughts ?

my thoughts are that the question hinged on Islam and the Qu'ran, therefore people should aim their responses on replying to the Question, which is why I've moved it to Comparing Religions; can we please avoid straying into realms of terrorism and extremism? I realise this aspect hasn't been broached, but just as a caveat, please....
Thank you kindly.

Theravadan buddhism bans music too at least if you take those precepts beyond the five.

Oh really?
'bans'....?

citation....?

shanyin

my opinion is islam is straight up garbage

could change and I've never read the q'aran

federica

then your comment is based upon personal ignorance and it's a shame to display it.....

compassionate_warrior

Precept #7 says no music or dancing. As Jeffrey says, it only applies to those who take precepts beyond the basic first 5.

federica

Not all music is banned, even for monks.

Jeffrey

Federica, it's (dancing) in the long discourses the early sections on morality. Those precepts are not universal to all practitioners. I didn't mean it as a snipe on Theravada buddhism, I was just reading the Pali Canon yesterday. There is some sense in not listening to music in an obsessive way needing to be entertained with some peak experience at all times. At the same time music can cheer a person up and be used skillfully to overcome negative feelings/moods (I think).

The good news from all of that above, to me, is that I have been feeling a lot better stronger and free from suffering with better concentration. I have been *able* to do lengthier readings and watching videos; it's great!

Jeffrey

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.01.0.bodh.html


2. The Intermediate Section on Virtue (Majjhimasīla)

11. "Or he might say: 'Whereas some honorable recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, continuously cause damage to seed and plant life — to plants propagated from roots, stems, joints, buddings, and seeds — the recluse Gotama abstains from damaging seed and plant life.'

12. "Or he might say: 'Whereas some honorable recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, enjoy the use of stored up goods such as stored up food, drinks, garments, vehicles, bedding, scents, and comestibles — the recluse Gotama abstains from the use of stored up goods'

13. "Or he might say: 'Whereas some honorable recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, attend unsuitable shows, such as: shows featuring dancing, singing, or instrumental music; theatrical performances; narrations of legends; music played by hand-clapping, cymbals, and drums; picture houses; acrobatic performances; combats of elephants, horses, buffaloes, bulls, goats, rams, cocks and quails; stick-fights, boxing and wrestling, sham-fights, roll-calls, battle-arrays, and regimental reviews — the recluse Gotama abstains from attending such unsuitable shows.'

14. "Or he might say: "Whereas some honorable recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, indulge in the following games that are a basis for negligence:[1] aṭṭhapada (a game played on an eight-row chess-board); dasapada (a game played on a ten-row chess-board); ākāsa (a game of the same type played by imagining a board in the air); parihārapatha ("hopscotch," a diagram is drawn on the ground and one has to jump in the allowable spaces avoiding the lines); santika ("spellicans," assembling the pieces in a pile, removing and returning them without disturbing the pile); khalika (dice games); ghaṭika (hitting a short stick with a long stick); salākahattha (a game played by dipping the hand in paint or dye, striking the ground or a wall, and requiring the participants to show the figure of an elephant, a horse etc.); akkha (ball games); paṅgacīra (blowing through toy pipes made of leaves); vaṅkaka (ploughing with miniature ploughs); mokkhacika (turning somersaults); ciṅgulika (playing with paper windmills); pattāḷaka (playing with toy measures); rathaka (playing with toy chariots); dhanuka (playing with toy bows); akkharika (guessing at letters written in the air or on one's back); manesika (guessing others' thoughts); yathāvajja (games involving mimicry of deformities) — the recluse Gotama abstains from such games and recreations.'

15. "Or he might say: 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on food offered by the faithful, enjoy the use of high and luxurious beds and seats, such as: spacious couches; thrones with animal figures carved on the supports; long-haired coverlets; multi-colored patchwork coverlets; white woollen coverlets; woollen coverlets embroidered with flowers; quilts stuffed with cotton; woollen coverlets embroidered with animal figures; woollen coverlets with hair on both sides or on one side; bedspreads embroidered with gems; silk coverlets; dance-hall carpets; elephant, horse or chariot rugs; rugs of antelope-skins; choice spreads made of kadali-deer hides; spreads with red awnings overhead; couches with red cushions for the head and feet — the recluse Gotama abstains from the use of such high and luxurious beds and seats.'

16. "Or he might say: 'Whereas some recluses and brahmins, while living on the food offered by the faithful, enjoy the use of such devices for embellishing and beautifying themselves as the following: rubbing scented powders into the body, massaging with oils, bathing in perfumed water, kneading the limbs, mirrors, ointments, garlands, scents, unguents, face-powders, make-up, bracelets, head-bands, decorated walking sticks, ornamented medicine-tubes, rapiers, sunshades, embroidered sandals, turbans, diadems, yaktail whisks, and long-fringed white robes — the recluse Gotama abstains from the use of such devices for embellishment and beautification.'

Bekenze

Not all music is banned, even for monks.

7th precept seems pretty straight forward. Please direct me where goes into detail where only certain music is banned.

shanyin

my opinion is islam is straight up garbage

could change and I've never read the q'aran

then your comment is based upon personal ignorance and it's a shame to display it.....

Well I took one of our posters at their word when they talk about being tortured by the so called creator of the universe or "Alah" constantly in the Quaran.

And in Islamic societies you will be killed for having my opinion that its ugly garbage and leaving the "faith"

That's really all I need to know.

robot

So weird to see a member in good standing trolling this way.

Theswingisyellow

Sufism is quite beautiful.
The intolerance in other parts of Islam is dreadful.

Jeffrey

Robot, could you be specific who is trolling? For me trolling is messing with someones mind to get their goat. I would say people are just opinionated in this thread.

Spaceless

in this line up, isn't it the same as Buddhism and sutra/sutta, where islam vs buddhism and qur'an vs sutra/sutta

robot

@jeffery
I think it's pretty obvious that I mean that shanyin is trolling for a reaction. The unnecessary use of harsh language to describe a different faith about which he clearly knows very little and claims no desire to learn about feels inflammatory to me.

federica

Not all music is banned, even for monks.

7th precept seems pretty straight forward. Please direct me where goes into detail where only certain music is banned.

How do the Acariyas include listening in watching?
According to the Acariyas, the breaking of the precept lies in the effort exerted in going to watch shows. If we are standing, sitting or lying down in our own place, that is, if we do not put forth the effort to go and watch, and if such shows or entertainments come to us or pass by, it is not a breach of the precept for us, though the sila would be tarnished. But in any case, not to listen or watch is the best. The listening to or singing of songs is a breach of the precept, except with such ballads as contain Dhamma that causes faith to arise as well as arousing weariness with the suffering of our life. For example, one Thera (senior bhikkhu) heard a slave woman singing about life's troubles. When the Thera heard this, he saw the tediousness of suffering and achieved attainments on the Path. This type of song can be listened to and is not detrimental.

from here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanavara/uposatha.html

federica

@jeffery
I think it's pretty obvious that I mean that shanyin is trolling for a reaction. The unnecessary use of harsh language to describe a different faith about which he clearly knows very little and claims no desire to learn about feels inflammatory to me.

I agree.
and if he chooses to continue in the same vein, then I'm sure there will be consequences.

ok, @shanyin?

shanyin

OK kinda understand and I'll try not to post anything that's trollish or even just stupid.

To answer the question:

it's not my cup of tea. I know I have not read the Qua'an, but the Muslims probably put alot of emphasis on Allah and I don't like the stuff about Allah and what Allah wants and will do to you in the Qua'an and think no good can come of it.

And I AM willing to learn.

If Fed wants me to just read from this point that's something I can agree on.

Please understand no hard feelings.

federica

they put the same emphasis on Allah as Christians do on God. And as with some Christian factions, interpretation of the Written word is not always to everyone's agreement.

shanyin

As Sam Harris pointed out, it's interesting how little sleep we've lost about the notion punishment by Allah for not having faith in him and his prophet as westerners.

I hope those who will be killed if they leave the faith can sleep well.

shanyin

*runs away

shanyin

i would edit this to save my behind but my knowledge of Islam seems negative. Yes it may say that the punishment for leaving the faith is death and it is practiced but perhaps in the Qua'an this is not a direct authoritative commandment from God straightforwardly.

I'm going to leave this one alone and just watch

_/\_