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There's some good things in islam. Usury is not allowed which is to say getting people in debt and then owning them like credit card. I suppose that is eroded in modern day? Just something I read that seemed to have a good intention if nothing else.
At one time the islamic world was in its own renaisance and much of science was preserved in islam while europe was in a dark age. Why do you think we use arabic numerals. They used to be unusually religious tolerant although they did tax foreign religions more.
I think this is like the dark ages of Islam. Lets stop bombing them and moving them off their land and lets see if we can yield a bit and hope the next generation or maybe even two generations from now..
There's some good things in islam. Usury is not allowed which is to say getting people in debt and then owning them like credit card. I suppose that is eroded in modern day? Just something I read that seemed to have a good intention if nothing else.
Along the same vein, if I'm correct, no one is allowed to charge interest on a loan or a credit card. I think that's fantastic, and I wish Visa agreed with me.
I talked to my Muslim friends about the good things Islam brought, and I have a deeper appreciation of what it has contributed to modern society that we take for granted.
It was the Muslims who brought the concept of hygiene to Europe. Due to the fact that Muslims have 5 obligatory prayers, they have to keep keep themselves clean physically. Therefore there were ritual ablutions of water prior to every prayer. And They invented soap in order to make themselves cleaner. And they produced fragrances to make themselves smell good. All these were introduced by the Muslims into Europe.
Medical advances were also brought into the Western World via Islam. Look up Avicenna and you know what I mean.
Here in Asia there are banks which practice Islamic banking. Basically these banks invest in causes and business which help the community, and they do not give loans to businesses which Islam does not approve of, like gambling, casinos, etc. According to the people I talk to, Islamic banks do charge interest, but they do not go above 3%. Anything above that is considered usury. These banks also do not pay out interests, but they pay out dividends when the bank does well. And these banks are not allowed to close without returning to the customers their stated balances.
I don't think we need to talk about the advances of Mathematics and Science that the Islamic world has introduced to us.
Sure the Islam we see now is crazy and radical and merciless. But what we see is what the media lets us see. The media (American Right-wing media especially) tends to vilify what is viewed to be against "American Judeo-Christian values", but they do not understand that without the Muslims, we may all still be thinking that diseases are punishments sent by an imaginary old man living in the sky.
I have just watched because I know little of islam and nothing of the Quran, but I know and knew a fair few muslims and as I have said, they were great people, they all had their own issues like the most of us.
Islam, like with most religion you have exstremists. It is just that the exstremists that are brought up in undeveolped countries have different morals and ways of living. It sometimes spreads to people who are vulnrable in the west but that is rare. Extremism in christianity is obvious, you have seen the people violently protesting against homsexuality and against ethnics minorities. In buddhism I have viewed extremist buddhist views on this forum, so it is everywhere you look. But, if you also look closely, you can see the positive in all of those 3 religions, the pure and beautiful aspects.
From what I understand about Sharia Law, I don't believe it should be imposed on anyone.
Islam seems to be very similar to Christianity in regards to having one true God sending a Prophet(s), the difference being who was the last prophet, Jesus or Muhammad, and Muslims do not worship their prophets as Christians do.
I've only known one Muslim... While I was in Iraq, I worked with three Iraqi Interpreters... a Muslim, a Christian and an Atheist surprisingly enough. What struck me about the Muslim gentleman was how genuinely loving and generous he was. When we would all go out shopping or to eat, I don't recall him ever buying anything for himself without wanting to buy something for the person he was with... One of the nicest people I have ever met. He had some amazing stories about his life in Iraq... he had to escape the Kurdish region of Iraq when the Sadam regime opened season and fire on them. It was in the Winter, freezing cold and he sent his family ahead because he was slowing them down... he pretty much gave up on his chances to survive, but some other Kurds fleeing were able to help him, and he met up with his family in Turkey I believe. Anyways, his family now lives in New York.
I know there are Muslims who are violent in the name of their religion, but violent people are violent people regardless if they are fighting for religion, greed, envy, pride or anything other reason.
Unfortunately, I am not impressed by this religion. I've read the Quran. What people dont understand is that while there are indeed peaceful and decent verses in the book, they are "abbrogated" by later, more violent verses. This is an established Islamic doctrine which is acknowledged by all schools of jurisprudence.
From the Quran and Hadiths...
-Death to apostates "Whoever leaves his religion, kill him." -Muhammed -Subjugation of women and sanctioning of spousal abuse -"Dhimmitude" or second class citizenship for non-Muslims (very much like Jim Crow) -Divine injunction to violently spreading the religion (9:29) -Glorification of martyrdom (9:111) -Sanctioned lying to non-believers (Taquiya)
Of course this is what Muhammed preached and what the super serious followers believe. There are varying levels of devotion as in any religion, which explains why there are many and most who don't go along with all this. But unfortunately, the Salafis and hard liners are by their religion's logic the correct ones, and why an Islamic reformation and renaissance is unlikely.
KoB, christianity has similar things and the US is over 80% christian. Therefore I conclude that China should invade us in order to purge us of Christianity? I mean thats only fair, right?
KoB, christianity has similar things and the US is over 80% christian. Therefore I conclude that China should invade us in order to purge us of Christianity? I mean thats only fair, right?
Usually, having that many straw men packed into such a small paragraph would make your post a fire hazard!
But I digress. First of all, the thread is about Islam, so of course I did not mention Christianity. Second, I did not say anything about "purging" a country or region of any religion. It's a preposterous idea. Why did you even suggest it? Your post is incoherent.
I said nothing that is factually incorrect. Al-Azhar University in Egypt, the most revered school in Islamic Sunni thought, acknowledges all of the religious principles and doctrines I just put forth. The Bible is indeed riddled with violence, but it is different in that it does not demand its followers commit violence for all time in its name. Jesus did not engage in violence. Muhammed was a warlord. Jesus did not demand unbelievers be put to the sword. Muhammed did. This is just a fact.
There is nothing comparable to "Fight the unbelievers wherever you find them until they accept the religion, feel themselves submitted, or be killed." (9:29) And "Paradise is for those who kill and are killed for Allah." (9:111)
Sorry, Bible has some appaling parts, but nothing like that.
Just because you claim something is straw man with marked hyperbole does not make it so. The fact is that your argument of military action against islam due to violent portions of the Qu'ran does not hold up to reason.
The bible does not explicitly call for Jihad, true. Nonetheless the bible is chalk full of violence. It's arbitrary of you to sanction protective aggression in one case and not in the other. It is an arbitrary line you are drawing.
There is a huge difference between a story with lots of violence vs. God telling you to commit violent acts in order to get into heaven. You acknowledged the Bible doesn't call for offensive warfare for the purposes of establishing religion. The Koran does. This is a crucial distinction.
I am not arguing here about the pros and cons of military strategy. I am simply stating my views on the religion, which is what the OP was about. Not interested in debating military strategy in this thread.
What have I said about the religion in this thread that is incorrect?
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Raven, part of the discussion was how negative the Qu'ran was. I was pointing out a comparison to the most popular western religion and showing thereby that agressive attitudes are not unique to islam. So what I am going for is to compare the Qu'ran with the Bible.
No matter how full of wisdom or insight a text may be, even one call for murder on its behalf, negates it. That's why I don't follow the Bible or the Quran. Imagine if Buddhism taught the 4NT's, the 8 fold ect and then at the end said it was okay, nay Buddha commanded us to murder unbelievers, how many here would be Buddhist? Mohammed was a warlord. He personally fought in ,I believe, 26 different battles. Islam was pushed on others at the tip of a sword. We tolerate the intolerable.
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Interesting. When has it ever been put into practice? And why hasn't it really ever been done since then? And notice how these Judaic laws apply to those within the Jewish community, and not for all humanity for all time.
Anyway, it's moot. This thread is not about Judaism or Christianity. There are no Christian or Jewish massive organizations devoted to world conquest. Christianity had to purge itself of its destructive union of Church and State. Islam has never done this. Check out Ayaan Hirsi Ali for more about this.
KoB the hope is that Islam will purge itself. And the hope is that Christianity won't revert back to the ignorant beliefs which resulted in the Salem witch trials, the Spanish inquisition, the manifest destiny, and so forth. For that reason I have compared Christian scripture to Islamic. It is relevant to this thread discussion because it is a key component in my beliefs regarding islam and/or the Koran. Essentially I am pointing out that it would be possible for the islamic world to retain its spiritual tradition while at the same time avoiding acting out on the violent portions of their scripture.
Regarding application only to Jews of my previous thread quotes first of all Jesus stated that he came to uphold the law rather than overturn it. My friend, a nun and former head of a university theology department, stated to me that the old testiment applies to all Christians. Indeed my quotations from Chronicles and Romans corroborate that the same attitudes are present in the new testament.
Fortunately most Christians are overall good people and they don't run around killing eachother or outsiders! We only hope that the Islamic world can overcome this darkness that has come over their culture.
Islam and Christianity are essentially the same - they have good passages, and they have the bad passages. It is not the religions that are bad, it is the people who use the religions for bad things.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2011
What are you thoughts ?
my thoughts are that the question hinged on Islam and the Qu'ran, therefore people should aim their responses on replying to the Question, which is why I've moved it to Comparing Religions; can we please avoid straying into realms of terrorism and extremism? I realise this aspect hasn't been broached, but just as a caveat, please.... Thank you kindly.
Just quoting myself.... as a reminder to all.... let's not turn this into a "find all the crap we can and hang 'em high"....
Good post, @Bekenze.... couldn't have put it better......
If one is indeed a follower of the Buddha and a Buddhist practitioner... one realizes that nearly one out of every three of one's own dear brothers and sisters on this lovely blue planet are followers of the Prophet Mohammed, one treats and regards them as one's own dear brothers and sisters, and indeed as one would treat and regard oneself... and one fully realizes and appreciates the severe personal negative karmic consequences of doing any less.
"one treats and regards them as one's own dear brothers and sisters, and indeed as one would treat and regard oneself" I agree with you. Muslims are people just like us, we all share the world, we all have hopes, dreams, desires and in the end birth, aging, sickness and death will come to us all. That doesn't mean one turns off one's ability to critically think and ask questions.
That map is incorrect in at least one way. It shows Oman as being under sharia law as "mainly" which is not true. Oman does practice sharia law on some levels, but it is not the be-all and end-all of Omani law.
That map is incorrect in at least one way. It shows Oman as being under sharia law as "mainly" which is not true. Oman does practice sharia law on some levels, but it is not the be-all and end-all of Omani law.
Thanks Mountains.... My apologies to any Omanians I may have offended
There are 2 categories of Islam that are very different.... Islam practiced in an Islamic state, and Islam practiced in a countries with laws protecting against sex discrimination and murder. One is a disgrace against humanity, while the other is a harmless comfort toy for those afraid of death.
I know many Muslims and they are nice people, as for the Qur'an I've read half of it but stoped it was basically repeating the phrase "I am your god worship me or be tortured forever" over and over again.
Very true. The first part of the Koran was relatively // to the Old Testament, but then it got into the anti-Jewish rants...and that's where I quit reading.
In Islam, ALLAH needs prophets to communicate with human beings. This can not be logical! If Allah has limitless power then, there will be no need for prophets.
Secondly, in KORAN Allah damns and curses some of the people who are not beliving in Mohammed.
All these clearly indicate that KORAN is not the words of ALLAH. It can only be words of Mohammed.
What I am saying about Islam can be found in KORAN easily. Please read EL EBTER SUREH, and MUNAFIKUYN SUREH and many others. And see the reality by your own eyes.
Islam is according to MOHAMMED. This is the reality.
You're simply falling into the old "my religion is better than your religion" trap. Every member of every religion can fault other religions. It has no meaning. What you choose to believe is not "the reality".
Comments
At one time the islamic world was in its own renaisance and much of science was preserved in islam while europe was in a dark age. Why do you think we use arabic numerals. They used to be unusually religious tolerant although they did tax foreign religions more.
I think this is like the dark ages of Islam. Lets stop bombing them and moving them off their land and lets see if we can yield a bit and hope the next generation or maybe even two generations from now..
:thumbsup:
(or prophet... Zing!)
It was the Muslims who brought the concept of hygiene to Europe. Due to the fact that Muslims have 5 obligatory prayers, they have to keep keep themselves clean physically. Therefore there were ritual ablutions of water prior to every prayer. And They invented soap in order to make themselves cleaner. And they produced fragrances to make themselves smell good. All these were introduced by the Muslims into Europe.
Medical advances were also brought into the Western World via Islam. Look up Avicenna and you know what I mean.
Here in Asia there are banks which practice Islamic banking. Basically these banks invest in causes and business which help the community, and they do not give loans to businesses which Islam does not approve of, like gambling, casinos, etc. According to the people I talk to, Islamic banks do charge interest, but they do not go above 3%. Anything above that is considered usury. These banks also do not pay out interests, but they pay out dividends when the bank does well. And these banks are not allowed to close without returning to the customers their stated balances.
I don't think we need to talk about the advances of Mathematics and Science that the Islamic world has introduced to us.
Sure the Islam we see now is crazy and radical and merciless. But what we see is what the media lets us see. The media (American Right-wing media especially) tends to vilify what is viewed to be against "American Judeo-Christian values", but they do not understand that without the Muslims, we may all still be thinking that diseases are punishments sent by an imaginary old man living in the sky.
Islam, like with most religion you have exstremists. It is just that the exstremists that are brought up in undeveolped countries have different morals and ways of living. It sometimes spreads to people who are vulnrable in the west but that is rare. Extremism in christianity is obvious, you have seen the people violently protesting against homsexuality and against ethnics minorities. In buddhism I have viewed extremist buddhist views on this forum, so it is everywhere you look. But, if you also look closely, you can see the positive in all of those 3 religions, the pure and beautiful aspects.
Like @thailandtom said, each religion/culture has good and bad people. It's important to remember that the news reports the bad, not the good.
Islam seems to be very similar to Christianity in regards to having one true God sending a Prophet(s), the difference being who was the last prophet, Jesus or Muhammad, and Muslims do not worship their prophets as Christians do.
I've only known one Muslim... While I was in Iraq, I worked with three Iraqi Interpreters... a Muslim, a Christian and an Atheist surprisingly enough. What struck me about the Muslim gentleman was how genuinely loving and generous he was. When we would all go out shopping or to eat, I don't recall him ever buying anything for himself without wanting to buy something for the person he was with... One of the nicest people I have ever met. He had some amazing stories about his life in Iraq... he had to escape the Kurdish region of Iraq when the Sadam regime opened season and fire on them. It was in the Winter, freezing cold and he sent his family ahead because he was slowing them down... he pretty much gave up on his chances to survive, but some other Kurds fleeing were able to help him, and he met up with his family in Turkey I believe. Anyways, his family now lives in New York.
I know there are Muslims who are violent in the name of their religion, but violent people are violent people regardless if they are fighting for religion, greed, envy, pride or anything other reason.
From the Quran and Hadiths...
-Death to apostates "Whoever leaves his religion, kill him." -Muhammed
-Subjugation of women and sanctioning of spousal abuse
-"Dhimmitude" or second class citizenship for non-Muslims (very much like Jim Crow)
-Divine injunction to violently spreading the religion (9:29)
-Glorification of martyrdom (9:111)
-Sanctioned lying to non-believers (Taquiya)
Of course this is what Muhammed preached and what the super serious followers believe. There are varying levels of devotion as in any religion, which explains why there are many and most who don't go along with all this. But unfortunately, the Salafis and hard liners are by their religion's logic the correct ones, and why an Islamic reformation and renaissance is unlikely.
http://www.evilbible.com/
But I digress. First of all, the thread is about Islam, so of course I did not mention Christianity. Second, I did not say anything about "purging" a country or region of any religion. It's a preposterous idea. Why did you even suggest it? Your post is incoherent.
I said nothing that is factually incorrect. Al-Azhar University in Egypt, the most revered school in Islamic Sunni thought, acknowledges all of the religious principles and doctrines I just put forth. The Bible is indeed riddled with violence, but it is different in that it does not demand its followers commit violence for all time in its name. Jesus did not engage in violence. Muhammed was a warlord. Jesus did not demand unbelievers be put to the sword. Muhammed did. This is just a fact.
There is nothing comparable to "Fight the unbelievers wherever you find them until they accept the religion, feel themselves submitted, or be killed." (9:29) And "Paradise is for those who kill and are killed for Allah." (9:111)
Sorry, Bible has some appaling parts, but nothing like that.
The bible does not explicitly call for Jihad, true. Nonetheless the bible is chalk full of violence. It's arbitrary of you to sanction protective aggression in one case and not in the other. It is an arbitrary line you are drawing.
I am not arguing here about the pros and cons of military strategy. I am simply stating my views on the religion, which is what the OP was about. Not interested in debating military strategy in this thread.
What have I said about the religion in this thread that is incorrect?
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Imagine if Buddhism taught the 4NT's, the 8 fold ect and then at the end said it was okay, nay Buddha commanded us to murder unbelievers, how many here would be Buddhist?
Mohammed was a warlord. He personally fought in ,I believe, 26 different battles. Islam was pushed on others at the tip of a sword.
We tolerate the intolerable.
Anyway, it's moot. This thread is not about Judaism or Christianity. There are no Christian or Jewish massive organizations devoted to world conquest. Christianity had to purge itself of its destructive union of Church and State. Islam has never done this. Check out Ayaan Hirsi Ali for more about this.
Regarding application only to Jews of my previous thread quotes first of all Jesus stated that he came to uphold the law rather than overturn it. My friend, a nun and former head of a university theology department, stated to me that the old testiment applies to all Christians. Indeed my quotations from Chronicles and Romans corroborate that the same attitudes are present in the new testament.
Fortunately most Christians are overall good people and they don't run around killing eachother or outsiders! We only hope that the Islamic world can overcome this darkness that has come over their culture.
Good post, @Bekenze.... couldn't have put it better......
one realizes that nearly one out of every three of one's own dear brothers and sisters on this lovely blue planet are followers of the Prophet Mohammed,
one treats and regards them as one's own dear brothers and sisters, and indeed as one would treat and regard oneself...
and one fully realizes and appreciates the severe personal negative karmic consequences of doing any less.
Muslims are people just like us, we all share the world, we all have hopes, dreams, desires and in the end birth, aging, sickness and death will come to us all.
That doesn't mean one turns off one's ability to critically think and ask questions.
Here is a debate on the subject that I enjoyed