Why bad things happen to good people.

still_learning

My girlfriend is Christian and one thing that really bothers her is why God would allow bad things (like death and disease) happen to good people. It's a paradox to her. I hear stories like that on the news, and sometimes a family member of the person who died might say that God had other plans for the person. I hate to say it, but that explanation sounds like such a cop out (not that it's an official explanation or anything).

IMO, this is where karma and rebirth comes in. I'm not trying to start a debate on where rebirth exists or happens. I just think it is much better explanation of why bad things happen to good people compared to any explanations I've heard from Christianity.

To me it makes perfect sense. A reborn criminal would have to suffer through a crappy life. I presented this to my GF as an explanation and she had nothing to say to that.

I'm not trying to argue whether or not the Christian explanations are correct. It would be arrogant of me to think I can know a truth like that. I'm just putting my opinion out there for discussion.

So every time I hear a story about a person who contracted a horrible disease, I start wondering what that person could have done in the past that made them deserve what they are getting now. Maybe that sounds bad, but I use that as a tool to keep myself in line. As in, I don't want that to happen to me, so I'll try harder to be a good person.

gallans

If you are seeking a better explanation as to why 'bad' things happen to 'good' people, I would suggest that there is no God and they were just unlucky.

Jeffrey

Horrible things have happened to blameless people. A man kept all of his family chained in the basement for 24 years and raped them consistently over that period never letting them out of the basement. That is what the late Christopher Hitchens (is that his name?) told in a debate with a christian. Just how could a God allow these people to undergo that torture. Just as a test of their faith?

AMH

Yes I have heard that explanation for bad things happening (the karma one)and I have considered it often. Ihave some other thoughts that complicate it but also makes it all more meaningful.

One is that people who suffer are not necessarily the ones who did bad things, they can also be people who agreed before they were born to take on a certain suffering. It may be for many reasons such as to increase compassion in others or to increase their spiritual growth, however it adds to the 'we can't possibly know' element.

The other aspect, borrowing from Christianity in a way, is that everyone has free will. I stretched that concept to a larger area when I added to the typical free will idea of a criminal doing something bad, but also all the people have free will and sometimes turn the other way when they should act in a way that would decrease suffering. We all have things in our past that we know could have been different if we had acted or held our tongue.

I know that often a grieving family is not comforted by the answer that God had other plans, if they are open a possible kind thing to say is that the person who is gone left so much increased compassion and and love in their passing (oh dear crying actually, I know a young woman who is slowly dying)

Dakini

They used to have reincarnation in Christianity, and they also taught and still teach karma ("As ye sow, so shall ye reap".) So maybe the explanation you gave also was accepted at one time in Christianity. But when the Church leaders nixed reincarnation, suddenly things didn't make sense anymore. So they had to make up another explanation, like "God had other plans for that person", or "The Lord works in mysterious ways".

Bodha8

Fortunately, solace can be found in the 4 Noble Truths. That is all there is.

AMH

I have actually been in two christian churches that taught reincarnation. One was the Liberal Catholic Church and a very small Indian Othodox church. I know the early church (before 300) had a very large variety of beliefs.

craigpoff

Sometimes the culprit when unexplainable ill results occur, is not really unexplainable at all---don't forget dependent origination. All events occur, not mystically, but from the sum total of all that came before it, just seconds before the event, but also long before, even over the actor's entire lifetime. No event is random...it arises, so I am learning, from all that came before it, only a fraction of which is in that person's actual control.

Sometimes a good person will meet an untimely "undeserved" death; if truly good, at least we have solace that they will experience positive (and immediate) rebirth to better circumstances.

This is Buddhism's great gift to me--I came to it late in life (well, '50s, but I bet that puts me in the oldest percentile here!), but: I do not fear death.

Dakini

@AHeerdt Really? There's a Catholic Church that teaches reincarnation? How fascinating! What is their basis for this?

What's the "Indian Orthodox Church"? India Indian, or Native American? I've never heard of it.

AMH

Yes the church is The Liberal Catholic Church. I think it is very big in a few areas like one area of Africa and i know there are a couple churches in Colorado, Chicago and California. I haven't checked on them in awhile. The priests are able to marry, the are expected to be vegetarian, and they are rather mystical in teachings. One very nice thing is that the hymns were all adpated so that there was no 'I am not worthy to lick the crap off the bottom of your shoes oh lord', Instead they focused on how good we could be.

The other church is pretty much defunct. It was based on the Indian (India) church of the Nasrani. So the story is that when the disciples spread after Jesus died that Thomas (the twin) went East to India. There are Christian churches there that are not recent converts, they have been there 2,000 years. They do not have any central organization like the Russian or Coptic Orthodix churches however. So my teacher when there with a group and ended up connecting and staying for 2 years to study. He came back and had a very small church, we mostly communicated by email. After some time, a couple years, he felt that he didn't have much to teach me anymore, but by that time I was chafing more than ever under the very old patriarchal rules of male/female roles. I parted amicably but he lives in texas so I have not talked to him in a while. Last news was he was attending a UU service. And yeah, there is no proof to any of this so who knows how much is true, however I learned so much during those years i can say it doesn't matter to me.

Epicurus

Why are we assuming the world is fair? Why do some trees get cut and others don't?

DaltheJigsaw

Karma? But wonderful thread! Thanks!

misecmisc1

my view: in the above posts i am seeing Christianity says about karma. i know Hinduism in Yoga, there is this law of karma - as you sow, so you reap. i am studying what Buddha taught these days - so i have studied that even Buddha taught about this law of karma - as per Buddha, everything arises because of some condition existing, even rebirth arises because of a condition of becoming, everything is relative - so if a thing is done which is because of its conditions, its effect will need to be faced also, but when it will be decided on the upcoming future conditions.

Let us leave any religion currently. As far as i believe, bad things happen to good people due to this law of karma. Those good people, since they have not done anything bad in this life, but they are experiencing this bad thing, which suggests someway down the line, the conditions of a bad cause must have been there leading to this current bad effect. this in turn leads us to believe there is rebirth as that bad cause did not happened in this current life. But since everything is conditioned, so a bad cause should have been there to experience this bad effect.

MamaLotus

I agree with you, still_learning. It also is an opportunity to feel compassion and not judge people with "bad karma".

B5C

From what I experience and telling my wife, who is also Christian, that bad things happen because they do. I believe that there are no deities, demons, or holy spirits that cause bad things to happen to you. Remember what the Buddha taught us. Life IS suffering. As part of life we must deal with the pain that comes with suffering. We humans can not control nature. Nature does what nature do. It can make our lives good or bad.

I remind my wife that bad things happen due to attachment and there is a way to solve that. I tell her I follow the 2nd truth of attachment. Attachment can bring bad events. A jealous lover kills his or her partner. A person who is so fundamentalist that he or she will kill herself by suicide bombing at a bus stop. What does those two things have in common? Attachment. The jealous lover is too attached to her partner and willing to kill. The religious person is so attached to his god that he or she is also willing to kill. Should people stop getting in love or be religious? No, we have to learn to moderate ourselves. My wife and I will love each other very much. We should NEVER fall into the extremes where we will cause suffering onto each other and other people. The same goes to religious people. Don't let your belief cause others to suffer.


In summary: Nature is an heartless bitch who we can not control, but we humans can control our selves.

mithril

Karma: "It happened to a good person cuz they were bad in the past".

Care to point to a suttra about that? Because until then i think your assumptions are wrong.

IMO, when good and bad get mixed up with karma Buddhism becomes even more random than the Christian explanation that God did it for God knows what reason. Additionally, i think calling a good person a former mass murderer is insulting to the work the person is doing to be kind, and is also a baseless assumption to protect the notion that good people will live happy, long lives. This is incorrect as proven time and time again, so stop clinging to it. Great people die daily for no former "evil" reason. If you step on a crumbling rock and fall and kill yourself, you died because you stepped on a crumbling rock and fell and killed yourself:

karma = seed (crumbling rock) -> result (death)

You did not die because you are a former criminal or whatnot.

Also, if you hurt people, you might get slapped because people got hurt by you. Not because you are a hurtful or bad person.

Besides, is there a suttra that says there is a soul in Buddhism? How else did then your identity get reborn? Rebirth has nothing to do with the second appearance of a "You". It is what happens when conditions change, and energy cannot be destroyed, thus what was you in this life changes shape. Your current identity will be gone in 5 mins, let alone a lifetime.

If you prefer the Christian explanation though, feel free to choose it then. Do not call it Buddhism though, it makes things complicated

SattvaPaul

Imo, the teachings of Buddhism are full of explanations of karma as retribution. In fact it's so widespread that there's not even a need to quote sutras for that. I've come across this in Theravada, Zen and Tibetan. Rebirth is also integral and whether you believe there is subtle consciuosness transmigrating or there is just five skandhas, all schools teach literal rebirth. The only exception I've seen is Stephen Batchelor and the modern Zen people who conveniently like to ignore the fact that most, if not all, Zen masters of the past firmly believed in it.

It doesn't mean I agree with it. It just gives me a headache. But the only other explanation (besides a wicked God) seems to me to be that it's all random, which doesn't make sense either.

misecmisc1

Buddha did not commented on law of karma directly because he said of conditioned genesis - there is a thought, but no thinker - there is a seen, but no seer - there is action, but no doer. everything is relative. everything happens because of its conditions arising. even birth happens due to the condition of becoming. karma or volitional action is due to ignorance. these actions have an effect which come into being based on future conditions, so when this effect will be felt is not defined may be in this life or in a later life - due to this, Buddha emphasized on rebirth. Then a question arises as per Buddha, there is no soul, then what is getting rebirth - the answer to it is the same reason of getting birth which is due to the condition of becoming. This is all based on my understanding of Buddha's teachings.

driedleaf

We may not be aware sometimes of how we label people as "good people" or "bad people". That can be a type of attachment if you think about it or putting ourselves out of the picture. Just my opinion.

zenff

“Why do bad things happen to good people?”

Why not?

I_AM_THAT

Get past the illusion of good vs. bad and you will see the truth.

Telly03

And good things happen to bad people... things happen, and our "good" or "bad" labels are just a perception that are often proven incorrect... such as a "bad" hardship that a person endured that taught a valuable lesson and made them a stronger better person, and prepared them to gain a great deal from a future challenge that could have hurt an unprepared person.

still_learning

Good discussion, I'm learning a lot from all the responses here.

I can definitely believe that there are Catholic churches that teach reincarnation. Christianity is so widespread that there will be very diverse groups of practitioners.

The "you reap what you sow" line in Christianity, I forgot about that one. I used to think that only applied to the person in that one lifetime, but now I don't see why that can't apply across multiple lifetimes.

Good or bad people, yeah, I agree, those are just labels. I think there are a lot of people who are supposedly "good" people can have many unsavory thoughts, and as I understand it, thoughts affect your karma too. I think that can also explain why "bad" things happen to "good" people.

federica

My girlfriend is Christian and one thing that really bothers her is why God would allow bad things (like death and disease) happen to good people.

As has been said, for the same reasons good things happen to bad people.
And for the reasons that good things happen to good people, and bad things happen to bad people.

'Good' and 'Bad' are also not also just labels. They're also relative.

"It's been a really bad day" or "The weather is bloody awful"....

For whom has it been a bad day? Everyone? or is it just your perception of your experiences that has tarnished your outlook of how the day has gone?

Is the weather really 'bloody awful'? Or do you think that some farmer, somewhere, is grateful for the rain falling on his fields?

Well, we have to determine whether something we see as bad, really is bad, from every angle. And might it at some later stage actually turn out to be a blessing in disguise? Can some good come of the experience?

See, there's so much coming in to play, here...

misecmisc1

These days I am (even though there is no I as such) studying what Buddha taught. He taught that everything is relative. So was just thinking about good and bad - came to realize this thing - in general sense, birth is considered good and death is considered bad. But if we see it correctly, then birth is leading to life which in reality is suffering and death is ending life - so in this way birth is bad and death is good. This obviously does not mean we should forcefully make us die - rather this encourages us to do those actions in every moment of our life which will eventually lead us to end these conditions of ignorance and the thirst of becoming, eventually liberating us from this suffering called life and freeing us from the cycle of birth, death and rebirth.

Zayl

The brighter the light shines, the harsher the shadow becomes, as the saying goes.

SeaOfTranquility

Shit happens.
Oh, and it happens to everyone.
But suffering is caused by attachment. The judgemental mind.

To believe there is some omnipotent being controlling everything is silly.

To believe that everything that happens to you is the result of your karma (past actions) is silly.

A butterfly flaps it wings a thousand miles away and it has effects that cannot be seen.
Dependent origination.

Perhaps ponder, who is it that needs to assign responsibility and place blame when it is just life happening?

KnightofBuddha

There's no "reason" that bad things happen any more than there being a reason that it rained yesterday and not today. It just happens. I don't think it's "God's plan" or cosmic punishment that misery falls on certain people and not others. It is all either the result of dumb luck or bad human action.

But I understand completely the desire for people to assign reason to bad things happening. It's punishment...it's destiny...etc. Whatever makes you cope I guess.

SattvaPaul

To believe that everything that happens to you is the result of your karma (past actions) is silly.

There are many teachings that support this silly view. Do you have any way of proving it's wrong?

federica

As any way you have of proving it's right, I would suppose....
The teachings are there as a guide, not as sacrosanct fact. Everyone must see it for him - or her - self.......

gallans

@still_learning Why does your girlfriend choose to have beliefs that cause her to suffer?

person

and as I understand it, thoughts affect your karma too. I think that can also explain why "bad" things happen to "good" people.

The results of karma are similar to the causes. So thinking about stealing things has a certain mental karma as a result but it won't lead to actually getting your things stolen.

still_learning

@gallans because it's just what's she's used to. I think everybody does certain things just because they're used to it. Comfort in the familiar, I guess.

@federica good point, I view the teachings as hypotheses that I am continually testing out.

misecmisc1

@federica: it can be easily seen that causes lead to effects, so it is proven already. For example, if someone told you to meet the other person at tomorrow 6am(cause) leads to you thinking if you should meet the other person(effect - then becomes cause) leads to you deciding to meet the other person in yes/no(effect - then becomes cause) - if yes, then you decide to wake up next day morning at 5am(effect - then becomes cause) you sleep early and wake up early(effect - then becomes cause) you meet the other person.

@still_learning: a very important principle which is highlighted everywhere in almost all religions is that you should have faith or belief in some principles, meaning, you should believe in some principles and then move your way forward. if everything you find, you doubt it and try to test it - then it may happen you may land no where. as somethings are so subtle, which can be experienced only on enlightenment - but to reach that state, you have to believe there is something there - so without belief, it is very difficult to reach anywhere. moreover, when there have been persons who had reached enlightenment teaching things, then at least at a minimum level we can have belief in their words and then move forward, as those persons at least before reaching enlightenment must have removed all their defilements, leading them to be pure and therefore attaining enlightenment.

again all these are my views and if you find me to be a total idiot to understand all these things totally wrongly, then please feel free to neglect my this post.

Theswingisyellow

"Why bad things happen to good people?"
Maybe this is the wrong question to ask.
Maybe a better question would be why do things happen?
Or better still;
"What is life?"
I drive on a road that a drunkdriver is also driving on. In his drunken haze he crosses the line hits and kills me. Why did this happen? How can the question "what is life" be applied here?
I was killed for no other reason than this person's poor decision making. He chose to drink, get in a car and drive. Is he evil? No. Did I "deserve" this? No. But many contingencies came together and this was the result. What is his karma for this? He will go to jail; simply because his intentions and actions will bear consequnces. It's illegal to drive drunk, muchless kill someone while your drunk driving. Was it my karma to die? No. I was simply trying to go home, but all these contingencies, all the uncertainties came together and culminated in him striking me. To try to make "sense" out of my death is IMO pointless.
As B5C pointed out regarding the four noble truths; we can do much to alleviate our own personal suffering but there much in nature and life we cannot control.
"What is life" Birth, aging, sickness, and death- this is the inevitable suffering that will follow us in life. We cannot change this but we can change how we relate to these things.
All the best,
Todd