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Ultimate question science must answer
Gautama Siddhartha aka Buddha is the worlds first scientist, his observations about the universe and everything that’s init have been proven correct some 2500 years after his death, more to the point any of his observation have not yet been disproven to date which is a remarkable achievement considering his nearest rival Einstein was proven wrong with in his lifetime.
Buddha is the scientist of the scientist the noble prize winner among the noble prize winners he is undoubtedly the greatest scientist ever however does the core of his doctrine stand up to scrutiny in modern science?
It is fair to say that very little is understood of his core doctrine even his later day disciples tip toe around the issue therefore it is feasible that I too have misunderstood it however that shouldn’t prevent us from discussing the issue.
Buddha appear to have said the universe and everything that is in it are impermanent which we know is true due to modern scientific exploits however he contradict himself by saying the essence of life (the karmic energy) moves on through samsara which appear to suggest it is permanent. It is worth noting that core doctrine of Buddha is how to extinguish karmic energy but it will not die involuntarily until the universe itself dies. This is a careless mistake to make especially for a man as smart as Buddha therefore we must investigate it thoroughly to ensure we are not misinterpreting him. Buddha appears to have said the entity that dies and the entity that is been bourn again are not identical yet not totally different and streaming karmic energy is the link between the two entities.
Therefore the most important question any living entity should ask themselves is does karmic energy exist if so where and how. As we know both Buddha and modern day scientist have conclusively proven that there is no physical properties of a living entity that can survive death. At this point I must point out two important points firstly near death experience is not proof of soul/karmic energy surviving after death it is merely a lack of understanding of the human brain, the conventional wisdom is that consciousness dies immediately after oxygen supply to the brain is stopped however it may be possible for the consciousness to sustain itself with very little supply of energy or even with residue energy for few hours as opposed to few seconds. Secondly past life memory is also not proof of soul/karmic energy surviving after death simply because with death your brain dies and there is no mechanism for the dead to store a record of their previous life.
Therefore how can streaming karmic energy survive without a body or even how can it survive within a body? If this phenomena to exist it clearly must have non-physical properties in order to survive through death and samsara, so what non-physical properties living entities can possess that can survive death and also have to ability to register karmic energy and re-attach it self to another entity for sake of continuing samsara? Is it possible for this type of unknown energy to exist around living entities or did Buddha simply got this one wrong? After all he is only human.
This is the ultimate question science must answer because it make all the difference between which path in life we should choose.
Buddha is the scientist of the scientist the noble prize winner among the noble prize winners he is undoubtedly the greatest scientist ever however does the core of his doctrine stand up to scrutiny in modern science?
It is fair to say that very little is understood of his core doctrine even his later day disciples tip toe around the issue therefore it is feasible that I too have misunderstood it however that shouldn’t prevent us from discussing the issue.
Buddha appear to have said the universe and everything that is in it are impermanent which we know is true due to modern scientific exploits however he contradict himself by saying the essence of life (the karmic energy) moves on through samsara which appear to suggest it is permanent. It is worth noting that core doctrine of Buddha is how to extinguish karmic energy but it will not die involuntarily until the universe itself dies. This is a careless mistake to make especially for a man as smart as Buddha therefore we must investigate it thoroughly to ensure we are not misinterpreting him. Buddha appears to have said the entity that dies and the entity that is been bourn again are not identical yet not totally different and streaming karmic energy is the link between the two entities.
Therefore the most important question any living entity should ask themselves is does karmic energy exist if so where and how. As we know both Buddha and modern day scientist have conclusively proven that there is no physical properties of a living entity that can survive death. At this point I must point out two important points firstly near death experience is not proof of soul/karmic energy surviving after death it is merely a lack of understanding of the human brain, the conventional wisdom is that consciousness dies immediately after oxygen supply to the brain is stopped however it may be possible for the consciousness to sustain itself with very little supply of energy or even with residue energy for few hours as opposed to few seconds. Secondly past life memory is also not proof of soul/karmic energy surviving after death simply because with death your brain dies and there is no mechanism for the dead to store a record of their previous life.
Therefore how can streaming karmic energy survive without a body or even how can it survive within a body? If this phenomena to exist it clearly must have non-physical properties in order to survive through death and samsara, so what non-physical properties living entities can possess that can survive death and also have to ability to register karmic energy and re-attach it self to another entity for sake of continuing samsara? Is it possible for this type of unknown energy to exist around living entities or did Buddha simply got this one wrong? After all he is only human.
This is the ultimate question science must answer because it make all the difference between which path in life we should choose.
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Comments
This is the teaching as I understand it anyways. I have no experience of this mind and science hasn't really been able to say much about it either.
Nice post.
That's why from the Theravadin point of view (or at least from the point of view of those in Theravada who accept the idea of postmortem rebirth), rebirth is viewed as the continuation of a process—nothing 'remains,' nothing 'transmigrates,' there are merely fleeting phenomena that condition other fleeting phenomena in the interdependent process we call life.
One way to look at it is that a casual process can be self-sustaining, with causes creating effects, and effect acting as causes, creating feedback loops. Moreover, if you admit the possibility of immaterial causes and not just material ones (assuming that a clear distinction between the two can even be made), then the continuation of said process isn't limited by or to a single material body. And if you believe Bertrand Russell, the more we understand about matter (i.e., energy), the more the word itself becomes "no more than a conventional shorthand for stating causal laws concerning events" (An Outline of Philosophy).
Here, consciousness isn't seen as a static things going from life to life, but simply as one link or event in a complex causal chain, i.e., moments of consciousness arising and ceasing in rapid succession, with the last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditioning the arising of a new consciousness due to the presence of craving (kind of like 'spooky action at a distance' where two entangled particles communicate with each other instantaneously, even over great distances). It's almost better to think of it as a transmission of information rather than the transmigration of some thing.
Thus, in Buddhism, there can theoretically be continuity between lives without having to posit some type of permanent, unchanging consciousness or soul that travels from life to life. That's why the Pali term vinnanasota or 'stream of consciousness' is often used to describe the flow of conscious events, even when presented within the context of rebirth. (Similarly with terms like bhavangasota (stream of becoming), found in Snp 3.12, and samvattanikamvinnanam (evolving consciousness), found in MN 106.)
Unfortunately, there are no suttas that give a detailed explanation of this process, and the detailed workings of this process are to be found in the Abhidhamma and Pali commentaries. While many people reject the Abhidhamma and commentaries as reliable sources of information regarding what the Buddha taught, I personally don't think the views of the Buddha and the ancient commentators such as Buddhaghosa are necessarily mutually exclusive.
As for the rest, I don't think science will ever be in a position to prove rebirth or the existence of past lives; but there are many somewhat plausible (if improbable from the point of view of modern science) mechanisms for explaining these processes without having to posit things like a permanent self or soul. Just something to ponder, at least.
I would just add that Buddhism can still be a beneficial path whether or not one takes the teachings on rebirth literal, and regardless of what science has to say about the matter, because its morality and methodology of practice are independent of these things. At its core, Buddhism is a contemplative practice; and Buddhist meditation practices have benefits that even secular neuroscientists can appreciate.
A quick search of the page makes no mention of 'karmic energy' but does say:
"Theorists still don't know what the correct explanation is, but they have given the solution a name. It is called dark energy."
and
''More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery.'
Also there is no mention of "karmic energy" on the dark energy Wikipedia page??
Is the another scientific community somewhere that only you know about?
Just replace creationist with religious:
Of course, one can always argue against this particular notion of causality; but I don't see any internal inconsistencies within Buddhism on this issue, nor do I see any empirical evidence to suggest that it's not an appropriate way to observe and make sense of casual patterns in life involving our intentional actions of body, speech, and mind, particularly with an eye towards reshaping our experience of the present in ways that limit and even eliminate suffering.
For additional references (in case you're not that familiar with Buddhism), you may find this series of talks and this study guide helpful in better understanding the Buddhist conception of causality, as well as the intended purpose of these teachings; which I'd argue aren't meant to be used to construct a rigid, metaphysical worldview, but as conceptual tools to be utilized in the quest to end suffering. That's my two cents, at any rate.
In Buddhist cosmology there are the upper god realms that don't get destroyed at the end of a universe and beings can abide there. Of course there's no real way to validate that view.
Yes I agree with your comment about cause and effect been non-linear and having complex array of competing events which is generally consistent with life experiences we all have however my concern is how it would carry forward to next life e.g. if my identical twin brother is a really nice guy and he help anyone that need help and he leads a very monastic kind of life and if I’m completely his opposite I understand within this life time good things will happen to my brother but not to me however if we both die simultaneously from an accident I can’t see a credible mechanism to identify which one is which and transfer our karmic energy accordingly.
Just to clarify I agree with everything else Buddha has said it is just I find it difficult to see a mechanism that can register karmic energy of trillions of living entities and transfer them to an appropriate place at time of death.
But even assuming, just for the sake of argument, that kamma is a form of energy whose momentum is transferred from life to life, with the last consciousness of a being at the time of death immediately conditioning the arising of a new consciousness, the mechanism that transmits this momentum or 'information' could be similar to the one that occurs between two entangled particles.
And whether or not this seems at all plausible to you, the whole quantum entanglement thing in and of itself is pretty neat, e.g., check out this Scientific American article about researchers entangling the quantum states of two diamonds and this Wired article about observing quantum entanglement. It's almost as unbelievable as the literal interpretation of rebirth.
With Metta
is false.
"If, on the other hand, you refused to commit to a coherent idea of what human action can do, would you be likely to see a demanding path of practice all the way through to the end?"
Strangely enough I’m completely immune to this type or reasoning which goes something like; do good and avoid doing bad because there will be a reward or a punishment for you; later in life or after it.
(Whether the consequences are coming from a personal God or from an impersonal “law” doesn’t make a difference).
The idea must be that practice is some kind of sacrifice. We can only bring ourselves to practicing when it pays off later. If it wouldn’t, we would rape kill and have fun.
But no; there will be consequences! So we will be kind and compassionate instead and shit... we will even meditate!
Haha!
That’s so funny.
I accept kamma need not be a “thing” in a physical sense however it needs to have the self power/energy to keep track of my kamma and it ought to exist around myself all my life until end moment at which point it can do it’s “fleeting” thing.
My thoughts are very much inline with yours i.e. if kamma is been recorded in some form of non-physical method and it has to be attached to our bodies permanently and if it is invisible to human senses, it has to exist in a dimension that we can’t access or it has to have properties that can’t be measured by humans such as dark energy however scientists must investigate this and confirm it’s existence because if such thing exist we ought to know about it for the sake of mankind.
Buddha is a remarkable guy; he managed to correctly observe the nature of the universe without any complex instruments like the Large Hadron Collider and he was more advance than what these instruments tells us 2500 years ago. We have to take the man seriously and that is what I did in 2004 and started meditation and non-attachment etc… as the man suggested and today my mind has evolved in to something completely different to what it was many years ago therefore I have received tangible benefits in this life by following Buddha’s advice however the core of his doctrine is about samsara fuelled by kamma which is an intangible thing and Buddha’s solution i.e. nirvana isn’t easy and I need to know I’m doing the right thing before I waste rest of my life pursuing it.
When the phenomenon is not there –as far as we can see – why would we put energy in finding it, proving it and then explaining it?
Show me the problem before you ask me to solve it.
Just practice for the sake of practice.
From - The Teaching of Buddha - Bukkyo Dendo Kyokai.
Chapter Two - The Way of Practical Attainment
1 Search For Truth
In the search for truth there are certain questions that are unimportant. Of what material is the universe constructed? Are there limits or not to the universe? In what way is this human society put together? What is the ideal form of the organization of human society? If a man were to postpone his searching and practicing for Enlightenment until such questions were solved, he would die before he found the path.
This is the crux of the matter, I follow Buddha’s path because he is a scientist, he is the first man to have said “don’t have faith on me try it out yourself and see the results for your self” this implies he want his students to do their own research and arrive at their own conclusion as oppose to blindly following his advice. Everything he thought can be practiced for few years and can see the results except for samsara because you got to die first to check it out hence my attempt to investigate kamma which would support existence of samsara.
Kamma ought to be felt by us in some shape or form if not we are going down the faith path and I’m sure Buddha wouldn’t have asked us to do so because that goes against his fundamental principles.
But it is all a play of emptiness/form. No "thing" truly, objectively existing just infinite processes meeting processes.
Thus it is seen that to see anything finite is the projection of the mind. To see a source or time or place or location is merely a projection of the mind.
Because karma is empty of any inherent existence, it is changeable/workable. The functional aspect of reality is only possible because it lacks intrinsic essence.
Without the mind that links, there is no karma. Until the mind links then karma appears.
Not as a thing, but completely as a projection of mind.
I, for one, don't think that kamma is anything like dark energy. At its core, kamma is better understood as a casual process that functions at an immaterial (i.e., psychological) and material (i.e., physical) level, whereby an intentional action acts as an event that puts into motion other series of events, which in turn produces the conditions for correlated events to potentially arise and be experienced as pleasant, painful, or neutral.
You want scientific proof that there's a cause and effect relationship between our actions and how they're experienced, or at least proof that this process isn't limited by or to a single material body, but I can't provide that for you. I'm not sure anyone can.
I also can't prove the existence of samsara (literally 'wandering on') in the sense of the continual cycle of death and rebirth; but I think its existence in the sense of the continual cycle of death and rebirth of the conceit 'I am' (asmi-mana), as well as the efficacy of actions in the here and now, are self evident and don't need any kind scientific verification. Which comes to my main points.
While the Buddha doesn't provide us with empirical proofs, there are certainly rational and pragmatic reasons for adopting these views in common sense manner—the primary one being that they're useful in the quest to end suffering, which is the entire purpose of the path, not the formation of a rigid, metaphysical worldview.
I agree with you that the Buddha was like a scientist. But he wasn't a physicist; he was more like a psychologist seeking to give us the tools we need to find an unshakable inner peace and happiness. Whether or not you utilize them is up to you.
(So much for the the whole 'leaving it at that' things.
I think though there is also the potential of direct realization of past lives through meditation. I can't source sutta quotes but I've read several times where the Buddha talks about remembering past lives.
One of my favorite quotes ever is from the Vimalakirti sutra.
“O Rahula, do not ask about the goal and benefit of the Holy life. To be without goal and benefit is the Holy Life.”
Or in my words: Our practice originates in the heart. Not in our calculating mind.
The false dilemma is: either there is karma or everything is chance.
In fact there are many very understandable relations between our actions and what happens to us after them.
We don't need Karma to explain them.