Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
I can’t think of a test to prove rebirth exists can you?
It seems like Rebirth is the only sticking point in Buddhism and it is very difficult to prove or disprove rebirth therefore I thought it would be a good idea to discuss a possible testing method to conclusively prove either it exist or don’t.
Is Near-Death-Experience a possible conclusive test to prove rebirth?
I don’t think it is a conclusive test because NDE assumes consciousness dies immediately after oxygen supply to the brain is stopped but it may be possible for brain to remain conscious with residue energy for a longer time than scientist currently thinks. Another anomaly with NDE is that why don’t everyone who was temporarily brain death get these experiences.
Is Past-Life-Experience a possible conclusive test to prove rebirth?I don’t think it is because if a person can remember their PLE this suggest the person’s past life memory survived and transferred to the new life and the new life somehow retained this memory while it was an embryo inside the womb. Another problem with PLE is that lack of understanding of how these thoughts get generated inside the brain because it could merely be an illusion just like remote viewing can some times accurately predict events and finally why don’t everyone get a PLE does this suggest only one in a 25 million had a last life? I don’t think so.
Does existence of ghosts, angles a proof of rebirth? It certainly isn’t, it can only suggest that extra terrestrials might exist.
If my dead relatives and friends communicate with me would that be a proof of rebirth?
This is similar to past life experience problem because it is not clear how these thoughts get generated in the brain and again why only one in 25 million people have these experiences?
I can’t think of a test to prove rebirth exists can you?
Is Near-Death-Experience a possible conclusive test to prove rebirth?
I don’t think it is a conclusive test because NDE assumes consciousness dies immediately after oxygen supply to the brain is stopped but it may be possible for brain to remain conscious with residue energy for a longer time than scientist currently thinks. Another anomaly with NDE is that why don’t everyone who was temporarily brain death get these experiences.
Is Past-Life-Experience a possible conclusive test to prove rebirth?I don’t think it is because if a person can remember their PLE this suggest the person’s past life memory survived and transferred to the new life and the new life somehow retained this memory while it was an embryo inside the womb. Another problem with PLE is that lack of understanding of how these thoughts get generated inside the brain because it could merely be an illusion just like remote viewing can some times accurately predict events and finally why don’t everyone get a PLE does this suggest only one in a 25 million had a last life? I don’t think so.
Does existence of ghosts, angles a proof of rebirth? It certainly isn’t, it can only suggest that extra terrestrials might exist.
If my dead relatives and friends communicate with me would that be a proof of rebirth?
This is similar to past life experience problem because it is not clear how these thoughts get generated in the brain and again why only one in 25 million people have these experiences?
I can’t think of a test to prove rebirth exists can you?
0
Comments
Very interesting question; unfortunately for the sake of your question I cannot think of a definitive test, though some light may be shed on your questions.
I think it would be difficult to create a definitive test where variables are manipulated, data is collected, and strong conclusions may be drawn. The best scientists could do, I think, is use a quasi-scientific method of research such as case studies. Many case studies have been compiled where children have a memory of a past life, describe details of the past life to their "new" parents, and the claims are later verified sometimes to amazing accuracy. Ian Stevenson is probably the most prominent researcher in this area. Though, I should note that like all scientists, Stevenson's methods and conclusions have not been without criticism.
NDE, ghosts, and angels, if proven to exist, would not prove the existence of Rebirth, they would only prove the existence of afterlife, ghosts, and angels. The same with relatives communicating with you from "beyond."
To me, its most "logical" and a base of the Buddhist foundation. Our Karma affects not just our own lives, but our future rebirths as well. We don't recall prior lives as we are simply not enlightened enough to be able to do so, but there are those who can.
Whether it can be "proven" on a blackboard or by research remains doubtful as we will bring our subjective beliefs to any such "study"; those who don't believe in it won't be convinced of rebirth and those who strongly do (as I do), won't be convinced by a "scholarly study" that claims to disprove it.
Very interesting topic!
Do something significant and skillfull with your life and you'll remember.
So will others.
Rebirth is what happens in every moment. The breath anyone breathed an instant ago is now in the past and cannot be grasped ... things are the same, yet utterly different. What is past becomes present, breath after breath, moment after moment. Try grasping anything that might be called "now" and before the word is out of your mouth it is "then" -- the same, seemingly, but different.
And what is true on such a small (breath) scale -- verifiable for anyone who cares to look -- is likewise true on a wider scale. The past is not precisely "dead" -- here I am, after all, and my past is my past -- but neither can it be grasped and declared "alive" either. World War II is the stuff of history ... or is it?
Hollywood is fun, but that doesn't change the facts.
Quoted:
Right Speech is the third of the eight path factors in the Noble Eightfold Path, and belongs to the virtue division of the path.
Kinds of speech to be avoided by contemplatives
"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these — talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not — he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue. (...)"
— DN 2
from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html
The past "me" wasn't who i am now and the future "me" is a stranger to me. And hell even the present "me" isn't truly locatable and only assumed based on inference.
So karma is seeing that what is happening at this moment is the result of past karma. And since karma doesn't have space/time boundaries it can be from any time. It isn't even my karma but rather another strangers (if the mind doesn't link).
So you're actively looking at rebirth. It isn't happening to you because you cannot be a constantly changing process. The you was asserted because of your previous conditions and ignorance.
This ia the best and most practical way to see rebirth. The present is the mirror to all past deeds. Thus it is to see the rebirthing of such energy and intention. Thus if bad deeds were done prior then your present is a reflection of such intentions.
Rebirth isn't happening to a person but rather it is the whole impersonal process of exchange or causality.
When we make this process personal then we suffer.
Simply put. It is a "Leap of Faith".
namaste
If you wish to know what you will be, look at your Mind, now."
remember what the buddha warned about Mind, and it preceding all states.....
http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/antonio_damasio_the_quest_to_understand_consciousness.html
Since the reincarnation is, far as belief goes, random in both selection and even time, it really is impossible to test. It's as impossible to test as the belief that people go to a Heaven or Hell when they die. It is, as stated above, a matter of faith.
man leap over a swollen river, they thereby get to cross... By Faith is the Flood Crossed..." Sn 184
"Faith is seed, the entrance, the initiator, the ticket, the beginning.
Understanding is the highest, the goal, the diamond-cutter, the end.
Both are Floods of Advantage, Fabulous Fruits, Leading to Happiness!"
"Wide opened is the door of the Immortal to all who have ears to hear; let them send forth faith to meet it."
Yes, Saddha is incredible!
Conversely, any individual with direct personal experience of a phenomenon must always regard that phenomenon to be an issue of his/her own personal direct experience, and no matter of faith whatsoever.
If Buddhism does not adequately describe one's experience of the world to one's satisfaction, one clearly needs to
a. seek out a different religion or philosophy that provides a much better match with one's direct experience of the world.
or perhaps
b. expand one's own direct experience of the world
It really wouldn't change how I feel about death. After all, that person was not me, and if someone inherits some memories after I'm gone, well it's not me, either. I have to say goodbye to the people I love and the person I am now, in any case.
What kind of proof would satisfy you?
There is a practise to remember past lives. Using that if you could confirm/verify details of what was in your "visions" of past lives then I guess that would be pretty convincing?
The question is would you be satified with that kind of result?
/Victor
/Victor
EDIT: I mean using scientific/logical methods.
Buddhism tells us there is no 'self', but a piece of everything. (Back to the ocean and the tide) "Self" therefore, can really be considered cosmic smoke and mirrors. All those pieces of everything came together at exactly the right moment, under the right conditions and presents itself as "self"
So where am I going with this....Stay with me...
The way I see it, we can look at the cosmic smoke and mirrors, as Energy. All that Energy came together from -where ever- and gives us 'self' (or, MASS. E=MC2)
When we 'die' this energy is again released to -where ever- to give new life.
Here's an example. A tree falls over and dies in the woods. It lays there and rots. Over time, Grass and flowers and new trees grow OUT OF the dead one.
So, The Energy of the dead tree wasn't REBORN all alone. It didn't die a tree and 'come back' as a tree. But rather, its energy was dispursed into MANY things. Assume leaves from other trees fell onto the dead tree and their energy mixed with the tree's to produce the grass and flowers. I would imagaine it worked the same way with all life. Once, 'Death' accures, That energy is released from our Mass and then 'recycled' so to speak.
Now, to really, not answer you're question, but to continue on with my thought. I recently read "The lost symbol" by Dan Brown. If you haven't read it I won't give much away, but to say the book speaks a lot about the Noetic sciences and talks about this interesting concept of 'Weighing the Soul" Which could potentially facor in here, if we look at the Soul as Energy.
I'm not a scitentist. Or a Mathemitician. You're thread just got my mind working and I wanted to share my thoughts. Maybe they will offer something to someone who IS a scientist or a mathemitician. (In which case, I want rights, and 49% lol)
The tree grows in the cosmos.
The tree grows another layer, another "self," another set of circumstances and conditions to learn from, another lifetime.
None of those "selves" constitute the entirety of the tree.
The tree of life is quite huge indeed.
Practice long enough and you will see through the layers on yourself
and through others around you.
The Buddha sat under the tree and saw it all, you see,
he saw it all.
The Christians, the Muslims, the Jews, the early Europeans, the Native Americans, and countless others also recognize the tree...
the tree of life.
Come see the tree at Bodh Gaya
Come see the tree of self and beyond self
http://www.thezensite.com/BuddhistPhotos/BodhGayaBodhiTree.jpg
The simple truth is I don't know and neither does anyone else. Beyond faith or speculation what do you have?
What is the reality of your situation?
Is nature really discourteous and unjust?
I guess the question revolve around how one defines life.
The nature of reality, quite frankly, is we are born, we live and we die just like all things.
What is unjust or discourteous about that?
The nature of our existence is right in front of you, nothing cryptic about it.
It is only when we have concepts of what it is supposed to be that we run into trouble.
Nature is neither discourteous nor unjust, nor cryptic.
You yourself are exactly the reality of your situation.
Your life itself is exactly the reality of your situation.
You are the sum total of all that you have ever been, focused down to work specifically on what you chose to work on in this lifetime.
It was your own intention; nobody else's.
Practice long enough and you'll see that truth for yourself; it's a gift of long term practice and meditation...
or get close enough to dying and you'll see that truth clearly for yourself; it's a gift of the near death experience...
or die and you'll see that truth clearly for yourself; dying makes things very clear...
or die with traumatic unresolved issues, and you'll very clearly and very accurately remember that last life and those unresolved issues as a child in the next life because resolving those issues is the focus of the intention of your life...
or die with traumatic unresolved issues, work on resolving those issues in your life and you'll meet the long parade of very familiar people you knew long before you were born...
and laugh!
It's hilarious, it's ironic, it's amazing to see everyone living the other side from what they once were.
Or simply wait...
and see.
Nature is not the least bit discourteous, unjust, nor cryptic...
you're living it.
I think through asking rhetoric questions, one is able to find questions which make no sense and throughout these answers not making sense, one is able to realize how important Right Mindfulness is and living in that exact, precise moment. Through understanding our patterns, our thoughts and our rhetoric questions, we are able to appreciate the moment much more so.
Sometimes, after meditation and when I exist in the moment after my meditation, I sometimes feel like a thousand years old... Like I have existed in this world for many rebirths. Could this be a psychological trigger? Or could this truly be a better awareness of my own existence? I will never know, but I will much rather go with the better awareness, as I truly do not think the mind is able to fathom the history of existence. Same as the mind is not able to fathom the infinity of the Universe or blind faith.
Go well on your questions.
I mean you can only see for yourself.
Rebirth is not reincarnation.
Rebirth happens when the past you is brought forward into the present moment. It is not called birth, because you come with strings attached. Your past conditioning and karma and attachment to the concept of yourself. Letting go of this attachment is freedom from suffering.
Everything that exists, or currently has manifested as form, has 2 qualities. It is impermanent and empty of a separate self existence. See this and rebirth no longer is a belief system requiring external validation. It is just how you got to this present moment.