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TEACHING RELIGION IN SCHOOLS
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
I will simply tell you how it is with me, and my experiences.....
I have been a practising Buddhist for six, nigh-on seven years now.
I am 49.
For the greatest part of the preceding years, I was born, baptised and raised a Roman Catholic. I duly baptised my own children into the same faith, and gradually discovered, when I had to start thinking about their education, that a Dioscesian school was equipped to offer them an excellent education. I enrolled both girls into the same RC Primary School, and subsequently, my eldest moved on into the 'sister' RC Secondary School. The standard and level of education they both received was excellent. OFSTED and Local Government Inspections always found standards above the norm.
However, quite naturally, the schools had a Mission Statement based on Christian doctrine, and sought through Religious education and guidance, to instil a particular level of Behaviour, Conscience and 'Brotherhood' into the children, alongside their standard curricular education.
But never to the point of indoctrination.
I became a school parent Governor, and remained in this post for a little over four years, so I was placed in the ideal position of being able to observe the school at work, from 'both sides of the fence' if you will.
I also befriended the local Parish Priest, and his Deacon, both of whom had very down-to-earth, common sense attitudes towards Religious Education.
I guess we were very lucky in this respect.
During the first year or so of my duty as Governor, Deacon Paul requested that a 'quiet room 'be created, where children could go and sit and read, or just "be quiet" and alone for a while. This idea was discussed for quite some time by the Governing Body, and inspite of some misgivings (regarding lack of available supervision, vandalism, disruption, mis-use) the idea was approved, and a little-used classroom in the new annexe of the school was given over for this purpose.
Paul decorated it with examples and devotional images and objects, from different Religions.... the major six, in fact:
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu and Sikhism. He also added objects from the North American tradition, and the room was brightly coloured, but extremely peaceful. he also included some basic information on these religions.....
Father Eddie blessed and consecrated the space, and inspite of initial concerns, the room became a complete success.
It was used for some religious instruction classes, but mainly as a place where the children could just get away from it all....
The year I left, a Government legislation was being brought into effect, stating that all Dioscesian schools had to include instruction and information regarding other creeds and religions too.... They were compelled to include them due to the ever-changing face of British society, and as an acknowledgement that religions, other than Christianity, existed, and were just as valid.
This the school did - with the advantage that the children had already been made aware of this in the 'Quiet' Room....
I believe in an ideal world, this should be the underpinning structure for any education system which includes RE as a part of the curricular programme.....
I have been a practising Buddhist for six, nigh-on seven years now.
I am 49.
For the greatest part of the preceding years, I was born, baptised and raised a Roman Catholic. I duly baptised my own children into the same faith, and gradually discovered, when I had to start thinking about their education, that a Dioscesian school was equipped to offer them an excellent education. I enrolled both girls into the same RC Primary School, and subsequently, my eldest moved on into the 'sister' RC Secondary School. The standard and level of education they both received was excellent. OFSTED and Local Government Inspections always found standards above the norm.
However, quite naturally, the schools had a Mission Statement based on Christian doctrine, and sought through Religious education and guidance, to instil a particular level of Behaviour, Conscience and 'Brotherhood' into the children, alongside their standard curricular education.
But never to the point of indoctrination.
I became a school parent Governor, and remained in this post for a little over four years, so I was placed in the ideal position of being able to observe the school at work, from 'both sides of the fence' if you will.
I also befriended the local Parish Priest, and his Deacon, both of whom had very down-to-earth, common sense attitudes towards Religious Education.
I guess we were very lucky in this respect.
During the first year or so of my duty as Governor, Deacon Paul requested that a 'quiet room 'be created, where children could go and sit and read, or just "be quiet" and alone for a while. This idea was discussed for quite some time by the Governing Body, and inspite of some misgivings (regarding lack of available supervision, vandalism, disruption, mis-use) the idea was approved, and a little-used classroom in the new annexe of the school was given over for this purpose.
Paul decorated it with examples and devotional images and objects, from different Religions.... the major six, in fact:
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu and Sikhism. He also added objects from the North American tradition, and the room was brightly coloured, but extremely peaceful. he also included some basic information on these religions.....
Father Eddie blessed and consecrated the space, and inspite of initial concerns, the room became a complete success.
It was used for some religious instruction classes, but mainly as a place where the children could just get away from it all....
The year I left, a Government legislation was being brought into effect, stating that all Dioscesian schools had to include instruction and information regarding other creeds and religions too.... They were compelled to include them due to the ever-changing face of British society, and as an acknowledgement that religions, other than Christianity, existed, and were just as valid.
This the school did - with the advantage that the children had already been made aware of this in the 'Quiet' Room....
I believe in an ideal world, this should be the underpinning structure for any education system which includes RE as a part of the curricular programme.....
0
Comments
Our eldest child (now 6) started school in 2003 and, as a family adhering to no religion at that time, naturally we asked about religious education at the secular primary school he was to attend. We were told that they neither practised nor endorsed any religion, but that they provided a well-rounded informative religious education looking at all the major faiths. Great, we thought. Just as we'd like and just as we felt it should be.
Apparently, they misinformed us! The school's teachings and activities have a strong christian underpinning. They pray to God and sing Christian hymns in assembly every day. All the major Christian festivals are celebrated at great effort, with only a minor mention of the celebrations by other faiths, if any mention at all.
As a result, we find ourselves with two very young children (6 and 5 years) who both believe that God created the world and controls what happens in it and that if they pray and do what the bible says they will be ok.
We want our children to be informed about ALL faiths. We don't expect their school to mold them into perfect little Christians. We don't expect them to come home with such a one-sided view of the world that, rather than offering them alternative ideas and beliefs, we feel we are literally fighting against.
Should a non-religious family (with one aspiring buddhist parent!) expect their 6 year old to believe that God makes it snow?! :banghead:
We actually had the opportunity to send both our children to a Catholic school, even though we don't adhere to the religion. Our local Catholic Primary allows a certain percentage of non-Catholic pupils to give a balance. This is a much better school, but we decided against it precisely to prevent what is happening anyway!
I'm sure they'll survive and, with lots of input from us, make the right choices for themselves as they grow older, but should we have to fight against the educational system to ensure this?
Sas :buck:
Remember that the greatest educational influence on children could well be the parents themselves... There is nothing to stop you telling your children that there are other ways of looking at things....
Also, on a practical note, you'd have to check on the Law by maybe ringing your local council or body of education, or even the social services, but I think parents do have a say in the type of religious education their children are subjected to... I know that Birmingham has a massively varied cultural population...there must be kids in your childrens' school that are not christian... their parents may well have grounds to request their children be excused assembly or RE....
Depending on just how strongly you feel, therse are avenues which may deserve greater exploration.
If not, don't worry.
inspite (or maybe because - ??) of their education, neither of my children is a church-goer...
It's all about education not about personal faith.
HH
Pretty much agree with that, which is why we're annoyed at the huge amount of christian practice this school does. If we wanted them to go to a C of E school or a Catholic School we would have sent them!
Fede, we may well go down the LEA route. Although Birmingham is fantastically multi-cultural, we unfortunately live in an area which is decidedly not so there is little ethnic diversity in the school. There are a number of other parents who feel strongly about this too though.
Darn it, we'll just MOVE!
Sas
no... when i send my kids to school i wish for them to learn
to read and write.
i will OFFER right speech and a moral path at home..
my kids can decide when they are older what they want to believe.
Guess what? There's a law! A law which says all schools MUST have a session of collective worship - EVERY DAY! :hair: :banghead:
Apparently the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 makes daily worship mandatory with the purpose of providing the opportunity for pupils to:
* worship God
* reflect on values that are of a broadly Christian nature and on their own beliefs
* develop a community spirit, a common ethos and shared values
* consider spiritual and moral issues
* respond to the worship offered.
There is a right to withdraw for parents but that would probably cause our kids more problems than it solves. I guess we're just going to have to bite the bullet, unless we think the worship is becoming excessive and over and above the government guidelines, and make sure we give our children a balanced religious education at home.
We had a lengthy discussion with the children last night about it. We told them that when there is prayer they don't have to pray to God and say Amen - they can sit quietly and respectfully and just think about the important things that the prayer is asking for without directing it to God. Our 5 year old though, couldn't agree - she says she HAS to pray to God because the teachers say she has to and worries that she'll get in trouble! :banghead:
ho hum
Sas
Your little one is only 5... she's impressionable, but just show her - don't tell her, show her - how satisfying a Life you lead by not directing prayer to a God... In time, she'll see the two and make her own mind up.
It's important at this juncture to not apply a separatist, 'us vs them' good/bad notion.... Christianity, taught and in turn, learnt positively, is a wonderful thing. There is nothing wrong with a person being a Christian, just as there is nothing wrong with them being Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or Sikh. The fundamental message of each and every Religion, without exception, is Love and Compassion for one another.
Your Children in time will make their own minds up. But by giving them an all-rounded education, you will serve them far better, as Human beings, than if you actively attempt to steer them in a specific direction, to the detriment or disadvantage of another.
Good Luck. Relax. It could be worse.
That's exactly what my father did, Colleen, and I am forever in his debt because of it. We could attend Sunday school if we so chose, but if Christianity didn't ring true with us, he had copies of the Q'uran, the Bhagavad Ghita and the Dhammapada in his bookcase, as well as a few books on comparative theology, so that we were able to make our choices of faith based on knowledge, rather than indoctrination.
now the original question was about choosing the religion of our chidren with respect to their schooling and whether it should be incorporated into their education? is this right? I hope so.
This is what works for us, in our family. My son and daughter have both been baptised-christian. They are taught that there was a person called Jesus and we also believe (for them) that there is a GOD. We choose to do this because where is the harm?? We tell them that they are Christians-which means they BELIEVE these things, but I add that we really believe more in the good things about Chritianity like love and compassion etc. My children also know who Buddha is but they are not served up dogma.
I think that establishing some belief early allows for questioning later on. For instance, The tooth fairy, Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are living and breathing entities in our household. Should we tell them the facts and ruin an area of their childhood-their ability to be children?
A child needs some fantasy etc. to become free thinking, I believe. take away a child's ability to fantasise and dream, and then what do you have when they grow up-stagnant, indoctrinated automatons-No one to invent or think of better ways to do things-just the bare facts-no thought or ideas would be created.
if some one had not dreamed/thought about a method to have a network of computers that if attacked would self-heal, You and I would not be here today on the Internet (me writing, you reading this).
So my answer to the original question of what to do for your children in their Christian school, is do nothing if anything assist them-guide them, serve them up a diet of different religions/ideals/concepts and teach them that (thank god/allah/buddha) we are different, but in some ways very similar. Let them pray get them educated in all areas of life-yes they will decide for themselves in the future which path to take-don't worry about it at the moment.
I hope this doesn't sound condescending or rude. It is not meant to be.
regards,
Xrayman
I don't have children but that's what my father and mother did for us and here I am.
Brigid
I remember a time when I was quite young, where I attended Sunday school, received Religious Instruction (at school), and prayed before lunch and dinner. Until one day my mother said to my father-lets get real (or let's get groovy baby -this was the early 70's-man!) let's either go to church on Sundays and pray etc. or give it up-we're not really "into it enough".
Well eventually all of that was dropped.
Look at me now-I still hold some Christian beliefs and values/ethics and yet I'm an aspiring Buddhist (albeit a fairly mediochre one-but still). It hasn't killed me yet.
regards,
Xray
I grew up in a family that went to church (Catholic) every Sunday and attended Rel. Ed until grade 10. At that point, i had to make my Confirmation, which meant that at 16-17 years old, I had to committ to being Catholic. At the time, it was just what I was supposed to do. Some kids carried on with the religion, others did not. I don't believe that a young adult at that age can make that kind of decision without some kind of force from parents to do so.
With that said, I did make the Confimation. Throughout college, I questioned my religion and became more informed about, BY CHOICE, and learned of other religions as well. It was after this experience, I felt could make a decision on what fit for me as an individual.
I have strayed from the Catholic church and attend Mass rarely. But looking back at my childhood, I can appreciate the instruction that was given me. Of course there will be things I do differently with my own children. but they will know of Christianity, respect it when it is present (in a school, visit to a church, others, etc.) as weel as other religions too.
I teach at a private Catholic school. Obviously there are some conflicting ideas between the school and I. However, lucky for me, that the Mission of the school is similar to what I believe. As in what Xray mentioned, instilling love and compassion. That is the focus of our Mission. There are prayer services, but they are more geared toward the love and compassion. On the Holy Days of Obligation, there is a full Catholic Mass. Our school has Jewish, Hindu, Jehovah Witness, and Prodestant students along with the Catholic.
The parents chose our school for it's high standards and Mission. These children do attend the RE classes. They practice their religion at home. Parents are fine with this. It's a trade off they accept for sending their children to a private Catholic school.
How does my study of Buddhism effect my teaching? I focus on the eight-Fold Path actually. I don't call it that, but if a situation arises, i was it to assist me. After all, if one follow the Path, a Commandment won't be broken!:D
I attended public Catholic school from pre-kindergarten until grade four when I transferred to a private Catholic school (The Priory) for grades 5 and 6. I was confirmed at 12 when I was in grade six by a bishop in our school gymnasium. We had prayers every morning at The Priory and I used to watch the sun move across the gym floor as it streamed through the stained glass window. It was a tiny school and we were fed the best hot lunches by a little old lady named Mrs. Seymour. I loved that school with all my heart but the Catholic part of it was secondary, even though our principle was a nun who didn't wear a habit. None of my teachers were nuns and many of my classmates were of other religions. We didn't care and it never mattered. One of my best friends was Indian and we went to a dance party at her house and her parents were in traditional dress for the party to spice things up. It was a blast. I asked her mum to explain the statues and that was the first time I ever saw a statue of Ganesh. I look back on those years with the greatest affection.
I went to school with kids of all different backgrounds, including Buddhist, but the school was chosen for it's reputation and high academic standards, not because it was Catholic.
But I was born and raised in Montreal which is a very multi-cultural city with a strong French Catholic population. Everyone was welcome and no one had to do anything they didn't want to do. Every culture and religion was respected. It was a little bit Jesuit in feel. None of us knew or cared what religion our teachers were, it was secondary. It sounds a bit strange now that I'm writing this but it seemed perfectly natural at the time. We were a very mixed group and we mixed perfectly. We never had religion classes or anything like that. The goal was strong academics to prepare for private high school. And we were prepared. My high school was very non religious. It was an all girls school and focused on preparing us for good universities. It wasn't even overtly feminist. In fact, I don't think I ever even heard that world in the 5 years that I was there.
My point is that I'm sure I had one or two teachers at The Priory that were just like you, Sharpiegirl. It wasn't their religion I was paying attention to; it was there conduct. And by the age of 10 my parents had already taken us out of church because they didn't want to force it on us. Our choice of religion was considered a sacred and very private thing by my parents. I knew the schools they sent me to were chosen on the basis of academic excellence. If they happened to be Catholic, no one cared. Had they been Jewish or Hindu schools, they would have sent me there. They knew I could always change my religion but I could never go back and change my academic preparation.
I think the students at your school are very fortunate to have you and when they are in their middle age they will still be able to remember your name.
Love,
Brigid
If this did not sit well with some xenophobic and narrow minded parents who felt that they did not want their beloved offspring to be "Tainted" by religious knowledge other than from their own particular faith then perhaps removing the labels would help. All major religions have at their core fundemental guidelines of moral behaviour, the Eight fold path, the ten commandments etc....Perhaps having a class call Morals and Social skills would be more important to instill in our children and allow them in later life to choose, if desired, to follow a particular faith. There is no doubt that without sounding like a Jehovah's Witness, We all live in a world where moral values have been eroded to a point where you could be forgiven in believing they are virtually extinct. Rather than concentrating on the differences in religions, why not concentrate on their similarities?
http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,1748953,00.html
It's like respect. Our moral Prime Minister, Blair, calls for a revival of respect but does not appear to realise that there is a process. In our schools, how can there be greater respect for staff if the staff give no respect to the students. Our society disrespects the young to an increasing degree.
Our school students certainly need to be given information about the world's religions: they have become as vital to the understanding of geo-politics as secular history. They also need to be given the tools to understand what they are being shown. This differs in many respects from the traditional approach which is based on unassailable authority.
Am I making sense? oh well.
regards,
Xray
I think that, as ever, you make excellent sense, Xray. The teaching of the 'mechanics' of a faith is as vital to the passing-on of knowledge/values/experience/context as is the teaching of the mechanics of any other discipline. Our young deserve to be told tales and sagas. More than that, they need to understand the context within which they are to live. For this reason, we teach them history and how to understand it, literature and how to read it, music and how to listen to it. We do this not because we expect every child to grow into a professional in any of these fields but because they furnish the mind, give it tools with which to shape the world.
Taking a secular example, I consider it to be like mathematics. Much of the information that comes to us through the media is expressed in mathematical terms. If we have no concept of number and how to calculate, how are we to make sense of shopping, claiming benefit or filling in our tax returns? How are we to understand when we are told that there is an X% chance of this or that? How are we to know if we are buying an eighth or a teenth?
So it is generally accepted that children should learn basic mathematics and, if possible, expand that knowledge. Supplied with these tools, they can then go further and develop their lives. The same is true of literacy.
But our teaching of the mechanics of religion has tended to stop at the level of 2+2=4. How can a person who has only this level of skill begin to understand, for example, the nature of the debate that is currently going on within 'Western' Islam?
Let us, therefore, use the teaching of our own faith, whatever it may be, as an example from which other faith families can be better understood.
kind regards,
Xrayman
Religious Knowledge (RK) was first introduced in 1982 to inculcate common, universal values of all religions and philosophies into students. Students had to choose to study either Christianity, Buddhism, Confucianism, Islam, and I forgot if Taoism was offered. It was compulsory, no excuse for atheists... That was until 1989 when it finally became an optional subject...
A new Civics & Moral Education syllabus was introduced (which I tell you is boring and of no use really, I didn't learn my philosophy of ethics from there...) to replace the RK syllabus as parents at times worried about their children being incidentally converted in their course of study.
Well my personal view is that Religion is a really optional thing, you don't have to teach it at all - in primary school perhaps you'd just do the lame explanations of morality (how'd you like it if someone else stole your things?) to the children, then introduce a good philosophy of ethics at secondary level?
But if it has to be taught, I think it becomes very much of a university-like course, where one would have to be proficient in discussing and understand the core tenets and beliefs of a religion (like a Degree), then delve into a certain topic e.g. Islamism (like an Honours). But heck, we already have too much to learn! I mean, when you want to study Relgion academically, you do not actually preach but you study it, like how I do with Christianity as some of you all may know.
NOO .. speaking as a student..
I have studied RE (religious eduacation) at GCSE.. we never and i repeat never ever studied any religion but christianity.. nor was it useful.. we never studied any teachings or anything useful.. we studied mass...
yea.. mass.. a stupid useless ceremony with little point.. to be honest i have no idea what i spent doing in those 5 years from yr 7 -11.. except being given that jesus existed is a fact .. but thats it..
i've never ever been taught anything usefull about christianity.. sure i know quite a bit about it.. but a few storys and a few differences between the religions..
in school jesus exists is a given.. and no alternative religion is taught.. i've heard of all these kids being taught bout alternative religions but in my school this never happened and thats like 4 years ago..
its not useful it pollutes your mind.. being brainwashed from a child to believe in things for no reason.. its ridiculous and its not freedom
When I began exploring and learning more about various religions, my Christian background helped me to understand, compare/contrast, and eliminate ideas, concepts, etc.
I do not believe that eliminating Rel. Ed. is the answer.
BTW, Christianity does have it's good points and lessons. It's not all bad. Especially when going back to the ORIGINAL teachings of Christ. It is the extremist religions, whether it be Christian or any other, that are potentially the 'pollutants'.
Sharpie
the stories and stuff i was taught aren't useful for life at all..
telling you how to live your life.. in basic rules with no guidance and no explanation as to why is useless..
telling you to belive in christ and god for no reason except that they exist is useless..
stories not explained that are dated are useless
religious eduacation is always taught by biased teachers.. and all these teachers at my primary schools, secondary schools were mostly catholic.. and they all were like this..
no use comes from this.. religion has no place in school at all.. You shouldn't brainwash ppl into beliving stuf.. it took me years to break free of this.. when i realised none of it made sense
gods make no sense.. good and evil don't exist. perceptions are wrong.. people shudnt be killed no matter what... destinty doesnt exist.. ghosts,ghouls,fairies,dragons,father xmas don't exist
imperfect gods are implausible.. its all rubbish brainwashed into children...
ITS WRONG.. YOU SHOULD NOT IMPRINT YOUR FLAWED AND WRONG PERCEPTION ON CHILDREN EVER.. YOU WILL DAMAGE THEM... THIS IS ONE OF THE PRINCIPLES OF RIGHT THINKING AND religion in school is all wrong
i completely understand freedom to practise what you want.. but christians all piss me off.. seriously
i really dislike christianity.. its utterly flawed from my view and Europe could be soo much better with more open minded people and less of this brain washing nonsense.. and ignorance being inflicted on people
I am sorry your experience was so negative.
However, my point, as well as Simon's, still remains. A basis is useful.
It is not just christianity that is flawed.
Perhaps it is just my interpretation of your tone, as it is difficult to determine via internet, but your tone seems angry. You say in your last line that "Europe would be so much better with more open-minded people and less brain washing..." However, your messgage appears to me as very closed minded. Your responses have simply been "NO" to RI, and what could be offensive to those that may embrace Christianity.
To each there own.
Did you know that the Dalai Lama has a long and ongoing discourse with Christian representatives? And that he has attended and participated in Mass? and that he considers Christian teachings to be in line with Buddhism? Would you argue with one of the most erudite and knowledgeable Spiritual leaders in existence, right now?
The basic fundamental teachings of Christianity (and for that matter, Judaism and Islam) are neither wrong nor flawed.
The experiences that you have had were engineered by human beings and their personal presentation and interpretation of these beliefs.
And you must embrace them too.
I have to agree with the others on this but I understand your point and where you're coming from. You're feelings will change and mellow with time and it's perfectly all right to be angry and dismissive right now in your journey. You will find that one of the great trainings of Buddhism is flexibility of the mind and that ideas and beliefs should not be clung to. I know you're aware of how tightly you're clinging to your ideas and how impossible it seems to let go. I think that's natural for where you're at. You're building your identity and doing so by trying to find out what is right to believe in. We're just pointing to a future you will experience if you continue your journey along The Middle Path. This future is free of hard and fast beliefs and full of love, empathy and understanding of the human condition.
To all,
This is really one of the most beautiful threads on this board. It was the Buddha who taught us to be this way and I feel like celebrating. I'm soooo grateful.
With love,
Brigid
P.S. Fede and Sharpiegirl, those posts rocked!
but there is nothing wrong with practising christianity but enforcing those views on children is not right and its done pretty much throughout britain..
religion has no place in school, it belongs in a church.. making people believe in stuff at ages where they are susceptable to just about anything is wrong..
hell i could take a bunch of preschoolers and turn em in nazi's its the same thing, let people come to christianity not have it thrown at them and pushed into them .
i still believe christianity isn't teaching you how to live your life.. but telling you to do it a specific way with no path there.. the end product may make sense but theres no way to get there without help.
I've rarely met any christian i could actually consider wise.. only 1 comes to mind.. all the rest tell me stuff i've long since contemplated and i find them useless.. if they arent trying to convert me through lies.. its some teaching that really is pretty obvious
All the more reason to be mindful of your speech.
Expand your view and include Spain, Italy, Africa, China and America too.... And goodness knows whom I have left out....
The Church and the State are kept so far apart here in France, that you would be forgiven for thinking that France has no religion.... people here are Godless... it's a Soulless country....
"You" need to strike a balance, and teach something in schools that helps children to at least have a conscience and evolve into Compassionate and Loving Human Beings...
Hence my comment on your experiences having been as a result of the work of Human Beings, as opposed to the Religion itself.... these 'unwise' people you have met, still deserve your Compassion and Love....
Maybe they are afraid of the growing Muslim population and don't care to address it by banning all religious studies.
children having conscience has little to do with religion.. every person is born with it.. its just some will never fully be able to control themselves or show any large form of individuality, i would call these people.. chavs, retards, idiots, senile people lol..
theres a large % of the pop who are devoid of indivualisation but this has nothing to do with religion but their intelligence.. intelligence is learning and wisdom is knowledge.. if you are devoid of both, cannot learn and therefore cannot become wiser.. then you are doomed
conscience is something you are born with.. I have been conscient of others feelings the majority of my life. and i haven't practised religions.. my parents r presbyterian but they never ever enforced any views on me or took me to church..
indivuality and conscience are products of learning. and caring .. I'm a nice person and i all i want is love.. buddhism didnt teach me this at all.. its already there automatically..
as for france being a souless country thats just rubbish
and me coming across agressively is kinda due to bad schooling in reality i'm not that agressive.. unless pushed.. i suppose you could say im passionate..
school's don't bother much at correcting peoples grammar while they r young .. causing problems in later time eduacation.. luckily mine isn't that bad.. so i can do Hnd's and degree's and such that require a small amount of writing.. that isn't 100% grammar perfect.. i have friends who can't even write 1 sentence without screwing it up so bad.. that you cannot understand it.
Yes, people are born with conscious. Religion is not necessary to develop it. However, just as with you, it did develop from somewhere. You're parents may not have forced you into attending service, but their values and morals were instilled. Where did they get those values and morals from? People are born with capactiy to learn and the capacity of consciousness. To my mind, it must be developed.
I do believe one can be be wise if uneducated. But knowledge does not always lead to wisdom. One can be book smart (knowledgeable) but have the common sense of a donut hole. (Referring to another thread, Simon warned against using the terms wisdom and common sense synonymously. )
Speaking as an EDUCATOR, I rest assured that schools DO in fact correct (or at least attempt to correct) people's grammar (along with all the other subject matter). As with anything, the student must be ready, accept, and use the eduaction.
PS even though u tagged the comment with 'lol' I tend to think i was unmindful to use the terms "retards, idiots, " etc.
First of all, I didn't say having a conscience HAD anything to do with religion. I said children should be taught to have one. People are not born with a conscience. It is an aspect of character that is developped.
Secondly, having lived in France for six years, I think I can speak on it with a lot more authority than you can. let me tell you - I know.
And you come across as being aggressive, because you're aggressive. It's got nothing to do with schooling.
You might say it's just like teaching children to have a conscience....See what I mean?
*Thirdly, unless you temper your language and are a bit more mindful about the phraseology, terminology and expression you use, I will have no option but to either edit, or remove your posts.
By all means share your Views, but keep your tone respectful, polite and dignified -
That's not too much to ask, is it? *
Originally Posted by Celebrin
.. my parents r presbyterian but they never ever enforced any views on me or took me to church..
Quote:
which is how they conditioned you to view religion
EEEh... don't pretend you know me. my parents never influenced my idea's on religion... my mum cannot comprehend any of my idea's.. and if anything cannot accept them or even remeber them when she does..
plus my views are not presbyterian and nowwhere near them, I'm not a christian and i was never a super zealot christian..
fear and simply being unable to open her mind.. She find's all my views as negative which is total rubbish as many of them are similar to beliefs in buddhism and its been said that buddhim is negetive and pessimistic.. well its not
::and everything is what it is:: there is no right or wrong.. no complex behind everything
indivualisation is an empty concept but.. it's one ability to think for themselves and many people cannot do this so follow idly..
as for labelling.. yes of course i do - i label those who are ignorant as ignorant... chav's are not thinkers.. they insult everyone.. they cannot speak properly and they live on council estates, many take drugs, many take up smoking early on, many attempt to get alcohol at the age of 12 - 17
i have to deal with them every day, they've set fire to stuff at our work, they've assaulted our workers, they've threatened to beat me up, they've insulted me several times
do i hate them? no... i think they are ignorant fools and i know they are, i know they aren't quick minded, i know they don't understand almost anything, I've heard their wit.. its pathetic..
you may think everyone is linked, but they aren't, i cannot get along with some people even if i do give them every chance, i cannot talk to some people as i have nothing in common, ignorance is not wholey on my part... You cannot talk to people who will not be talked to or indeed hate you for no reason at all
example::: 1 kid thinks I'm gay .. why? because i grew my hair like a year ago.. Am i Gay? NOOoo Do I come across Gay? NOOOoo i have a deep voice, and im not camp
Can i remedy this? nooo I've already told him I'm not and he's a homophobe, he wants to hurt me but he doesnt dare because i'd hurt him if he tried
I ignore him, typical chav.. ignorant,violent,insulting, useless scum - i dont hate him, i dislike him but there is a huge gap between us and I have no intention of filling it. I cannot get along with perverts,chav's, senile ppl and so on..
perve's talk bout sex all the time and make vulgar actions liek grabbing their crotch, chav's are truely ignorant in most aspects of life.. and senile ppl just babble about their favourite lemon juice or similar..
i will seperate myself from these ppl as im completely different
there are many ignorant fools in this society who are unable to learn or accept things because they don't fit in with their own fairie land view of things
and i still say conscience is automatic and built in..it may improve oevr time and develop but its always there is some aspect
religion has nothing to do with it at all.. these are for people who need something to follow
Yes indeed... Celebrin :winkc:
Celebrin, I started this discussion because my hubby and I were uncomfortable with the fact that our children were having daily christian practice enforced upon them. We want our children to have choices and not to follow the pack.
I can see you feel strongly about the subject, due to your own upbringing and education. However, your posts could be seen as offensive to just about every living person, including me - I live on a council estate due to circumstances I won't bore you with, there's nothing I can do about that right now - but it's only offensive if I chose to take offense........ and I don't
I think you're very angry (hey, I was at your age ... ok sometimes I still am but I'm working on that
May I ask, are you interested in practising buddhism or are you just here out of a general interest?
I don't agree here... if you ever have kids, you'll see they'll try anything (at least once - often lots more times :grumble: ) as toddlers to get away with whatever they can - lying, cheating, stealing, even violence - and do you think they feel bad about it in the end - if they're the one left munching the biscuit they stole?! You have to teach them the elements of a conscience - and sometimes it isn't easy!
Please don't take offense at anything I've written, no offense is meant.
Sas :buck:
Whether you realise it or not, whether you acknowledge it or not, a lot, a little or not at all, you are influenced by the attitude of those in charge of your formative years...Whether we are exposed to anything or nothing, that is STILL an influence.
You come across as a super angry young man with a huge chip on his shoulder....can't quite work out what though....
I cannot relate an awful lot of what you are saying as even being remotely similar to Buddhist views.....And Buddhism doesn't really float on believing things...it floats on Knowing things....
There's "Ignorant", and there's "ignorant"... and labelling and describing one strata of society under one banner is neither helpful nor constructive....
"If he strike your right cheek, offer him your left one also...." Matthew 5: 39
"He insulted me, he hurt me, he defeated me, he robbed me." Those who think such thoughts will not be free from hate. For hate is not conquered by hate: hate is conquered by love. This is law eternal.". the Buddha
Start with these two, and work on this.....
What you think, is incorrect...What I personally know is that we ARE all linked...Just because you don't get along with someone, is no indication you are not linked....The Dalai lama is cautious and wary of the Chinese, with good and obvious reason...He fknows, however, that he is interconnected with them, and every other sentient being....
Whether lines of communication are open or not, means nothing....
With the above comments, you have failed dysmally in this effort, and you have demonstrated just how similar you are....
Tell me how? Demonstrate to me that conscience is automatic....
I hate to say it, but continue in this vein, and I fear you won't be around a whole lot longer to participate on this forum.
*I have sent you a PM.*
i don't hate, i dislike him, I'm wary of him.. as i said i will never attack him.. he wants to attack me.. only reason he don't is because he knows he will get beaten badly if he does..I won't attack people because they are different from me or i don't like the way they dress, act.. I may dislike it but i dont hold grudges, this kid does.
as for council estates,... yes i'm sorry to offend you, but as you should know there are many rough people of bad background and social standing on them, I'm not saying that all people on estates are bad, but lets say in this area where i live, the drug dealers that i know of are located in council estates and the chavs also come from the estates too, i do know a few people who i could consider friends , or have considered friends in the past who live on them.. Just don't take every thing i say soo literally but for a whole in general
theres a town near me with very little estates and theres very little chavs to be seen there, while in my town theres loads of estates and they are everywhere
...perhaps you could be a bit more mindful of your speech.
Federica said:Tell me how? Demonstrate to me that conscience is automatic....
if anyone see's a person crying it affects them, they may not do anything about it but they know its there
Mrs karmadillo, most students at my school yr7-11 saw all the RE nonsense and mass as a waste of time, i rarely met anyone who thought it was usefull. Most students do believe in God, but it is all because of these teachers applying religion on children when they are young... and i do hate that.. Religion isn't in any shape of form necesarry..
all of the commandments are deeply enrooted in society anyway.. God isn't necessary nor does he give anything to anyone unless they are lonely and without hope, confused and cannot accept life as it is. . "Hope is for the hopeless" .. not sure who said it but is true..
I would hate it if i had children and they had christian stuff thrown at them, Gods cannot exist without 'Good' and 'Evil' and there isn't any.. just ignorance. and different views.. The entire concept of 'God' is uteerly flawed otherwise no-one would question it... Christianity in britain goes down % by % each year because it is flawed
Humans are bound to ignorance, all children do not understand early what is 'right and wrong' its natural, religion isn't needed but someone to aspire to. Strength and understanding is what they need, disclipine. They know things like stealing is wrong but don't understand why... Understanding the words is one thing, understanding the meaning is another
As for my anger lol, i always come across like this in forums, but rarely in real life unless severly provoked.. I don't mean to come across aggressively.. just kinda automatic, and I still disagree.. my Grammar and the way i write is awful.. it does affect ppl's perception of me and its the eduactaion systems fault. i would think its the long sentences, as they get faster and faster the longer they get implying agression
You say that the other person would like to 'beat you up'. Just because he thinks you are homosexual? Or was there a confrontation in which he was offended by your confrontation? Please understand, I am in no way accusing you of 'mouthing' off to this person. I am just wondering how the conversation was between the two of you.
As for your example of conscience: The witness has a few options in this case.
Observe a noisy person and turn the other cheek
Observe the crying (insert your word of choic) and say 'stinks for them'
Be aware of a crying person and think (to yourself) "awe, too bad'
Be aware of a fellow man/woman in despair and inquire (if situation allows).
Be aware and a fellow Buddha-nature, inquire, console, help.
This is where conscience kicks in. What would you do, Celebrin? Anyone?
If consciousness is not developed, where would our world be? Would there be compassion? love?
Is it lack of "developed" consciouse that we need all these rules and regulations?
the two are distinctly different, but I see them both being written and used, and I'm thinking this may therefore give rise to confusion and misunderstanding....
conscience
• noun a person’s moral sense of right and wrong, chiefly as it affects their own behaviour.
— ORIGIN Latin conscientia ‘knowledge within oneself’, from scire ‘to know’.
consciousness
• noun 1 the state of being conscious. 2 one’s awareness or perception of something.
— ORIGIN Latin conscius ‘knowing with others or in oneself’.