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I have been using conscious as in definition number 1.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
Thank you for clarifying Sharpiegirl...
And I sincerely and fervently hope this does not come over as either patronising or superior...I sincerely apologise if it does - I hope folks know me well enough by now to know I am not like that -
OBSERVE THE SPELLING....
the two Sound virtually identical when spoken, but are not only spelled differently, they mean different things - although as is perfectly evident, the Latin origins are almost the same.
I don't wish to nit-pick - but in this specific case, it is vital to both know the difference, and use the appropriate term correctly....
I dunno what Celebrin meant now....
Does he mean children naturally have a 'Consciousness' right from the word go....or that they have a 'Conscience' right from the word go....?
One, I could discuss, but generally agree with...the other, absolutely not.....
Does anyone else see this? Or is it just me who is confused by (or maybe confusing) the issue.....?
I am starting to get confused...
And no, I did not take your question as nit-picking or superior. It is difficult to have a discussion if we're not using the same vocabulary!!
I THINK....conscience, we are born with the capacity. I think we have an innate sense. I have seen documentaries on chimpanzees that show compassion and sadness in certain situations. Not to compare us with monkeys, but I'd like to think that we are more developed...
we have what we call, consciousness. We have a sense of awareness (hopefully).
Consciousness, IMO, is where things can get tricky because is it more perception...
but I suppose morality can be too....
YIKES.....
I knew I should've just kept my mouth zipped.....
:buck: :eek2: :scratch:
Rules and regulations aren't natural but humanitys way of controlling others in society
out society isn't natural, living in caves ,bashing things, wrestling with your best mate over a girl is..
all views have been influenced by society and it is now impossible to escape and have a 100% clear view of the world without being influenced. Humanity cannot escape from humanity and ignorance and wisdom are blurrily passed from person to person if they want them or not.
as for the kid, he got his own idea's before i ever talked to him, and i never offend anyone, i'm not a loud mouthed person. I only speak to ppl if i feel comfortable with them or i feel like chatting.. which is rare.. I have never insulted him, all i ever said was "dude i'm not gay" i keep to myself generally.. its much easier to type words on a keyboard to anomymous ppl.
And Kids at 3 will try to help their parents out..share thigns with their parents thats showing conscience alone..
And yes he wants to beat me up.. He's a classic kid.. I'd say about 80% of kids under 16 are homophobic.. i used to be.. but i realised it was stupid course he's probs nearing 17 or 18 now..
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
We are not born with a ready-made Conscience in my view...It is part of a behavioural pattern, and is developped over time... It is influenced by our immediate superiors, what they teach us, and what we learn from social interaction... This is why we often find ourselves at odds with it... the conflict arises because of the mixed messages we receive.
Conscience is taught.
Consciousness is something, however, that is always with us, even in an unnconscious state.... How many times, as young children, have we been mysteriously aware of something beyond us, going on.... a deep-seated conviction, for example, that "there must be more to it, than this.....?" The suspicion that there are bigger better things to be seen than we can see right now, is not unusual....
I have heard the phrase said, of very young children, "She/he's been here before...."
The 'ahaaah!' moments, the 'mini-awakenings' the lightbulbs coming on.... all particles of Existent Consciousness manifesting and coming to the surface, from the UNconscious....
Celebrin....
I really don't know where we are going with your discussion....
it's somewhat off-topic.....
I dunno what Celebrin meant now....
Does he mean children naturally have a 'Consciousness' right from the word go....or that they have a 'Conscience' right from the word go....?
One, I could discuss, but generally agree with...the other, absolutely not.....
Does anyone else see this? Or is it just me who is confused by (or maybe confusing) the issue.....?[/SIZE]
i knew what u meant,
people dont have consciousness from the word go..
way i remember things, it kinda fades in.. we talking about age 3 .. 4 when you develop full conscienceness
so yea i agree... and my topic.. merr i say something and 4 people ask me questions about it..
and yea conscious is invented..
take a dog, tell it whats bad.. it won't do it again.. same applies with humans.. in all honestly i wouldnt feel guilty if i hadn't been taught to as a kid.. i cud run about acting like a loony bashing ppl with planks of wood lol damn u society!! (j/k)
Hrm. It looks like I'm lucky to have gotten into my current, public/magnet school - I had been going to religious school since I was 3, until I was in 5th grade. Never really believed a word of it.
I guess that shows I have strong resolve? :tongue2: (Or maybe I was just a hard-headed little girl. Who knows.) I just remember how strict all my teachers were - when we got our book order catalogues for the year, they told us to mark out any and all fiction novels :O That was traumatizing - I've always been an avid science-fiction reader, and then they just cut me off?! WHY?!
My school is very good with addressing different religions and diversity in general - actually, I first really connected with Buddhism in my World History class last year. I don't know why - we learned about all the other 3.5 jillion religions that sprouted from (or were inspired by) Zoroastrianism, but Buddhism and I just kinda clicked. Like old buddies ^_^
That's cool, Sabine, and says a lot for for educating high school students about world religions. If we have to do it in World History class, or under any other heading, it's an opportunity to open the world up to teenagers and give them a chance to see what the rest of the world believes, understands and practices. This would be my first choice for teaching religion in schools.
Inevitable that I should join in again, I suppose. After more than a month away, there is so much here that I hardly know where to start.
Development of moral conscience:
There is no real scientific consensus on how this occurs. It does appear to be "hard wired" into the human being, although it is also grows and develops in the child, adolescent and adult. Its physiology is unclear and there have been many diverse opinions about its psycho-social components.
To those who follow the psychodynamic model of conscious/unconscious, conscience (Freud: SuperEgo) develops to establish a barrier between the two and exists in the pre-conscious. Freud quickly understood (and Eric Berne beautifully describes) how 'parent' figures are introjected by the infant, providing the matrix on which moral and social constructs are subsequently grafted.
To the ancients, the use of stories and myths was a prime method of describing the world around us and how to behave within it. Although we can see how this worked for them, we are less clear about how our own mythologies are at work within us. Joseph Campbell worried that we have no modern myth of the "hero with a thousand faces" but, I fear, he was wrong. There is a prevailing myth of personal freedom, market forces, what constitutes "good" behaviour, etc. These ideas are so pervasive that we do not even notice that we are conforming to them.
Films, television and, above all, the home and peers provide the templates for belief and behaviour.
Consciousness: This is quite separate from conscience, which is a discrimination between OK and not-OK in behaviour.
The fundamental confusion is between consciousness and life itself. Modern humans appear to ascribe consciousness in a far more limited and reductionist way than our ancestors. We reserve the term, essentially, to those organisms which have individually-willed mobility (as a species). Thus, we refuse to see consciousness in mountains or rocks, rivers, sea or sky. Plants are more or less excluded too. Animals (called "dumb", meaning unable to speak) are granted some recognition of their consciousness - as witnessed by laws against cruelty to animals. (Note: There is a whole different discussion here but I believe that these distinctions have a lot to do with the food chain)
Humans are considered to be conscious even when they are paralysed, so long as they respond to external stimuli.
"Religious" Education:
From the many responses here, it is clear that the teaching received by some people is dangerously defective. We are rightly appalled when we learn that young people are leaving school unable to read or count. It is just as serious that they also leave without any sense of or practice in any of the mind-calming, compassion-eliciting disciplines.
Too many of my friends have left their "faith" schools (run by lay or religious) with hatred in their hearts. It is why my work is often subtitled "Don't throw out the baby". The waters of religion may be filthy and cold and stinking but, within, is the baby of the spiritual, the mysterious. Poor education leaves our people hungry and thirsty for they know not what. They are quite right to be angry - they have been disinherited and have no legacy of calm mindfulness.
yep i agree.. RE can hurt more than help and oftens does. Most RE teachers and even teachers in general are poor. Theres not enough of them for a start so you end up with any old person..
we had a nutter teaching our class, who made us pray for 1 member of the classes soul and told us we would all go to hell if we didnt recant on our death bed..
he also said we'd go to hell even if we were on our way to confession when we got hit by car and died..
dude was a total lunatic.. and got fired from the school.. i dont remember half of what he said but I've heard countless stories from people..
as for my other teachers in RE.. well they were all crap too .. a few had no motivation and didnt seem to care about teaching at all..
and then you get the stuck up christian tutor (my last 1) 4 years ago.. and that really didnt help much..
you have to nourish seeds.. and they started to grow them then kind of let them grow wild.. while they taught us about nothing useful..
although some people don't seem to be affected by bad RE teaching.. i think what it is
when you are in pain and suffering and depression.. you need some spiritual guidance.. not all people need this because they seem to always be happy anyway.. but people like me need something to help us get rid of it and bad RE teaching and no advice.. no religion.. no compassion.. no anything ..no teachings about how to live.. just leaves us in a state of pain. . it doesnt apply to all.. but if they plan of starting something they should actually finish it
it would have been more helpful if they hadn't started the seeds in the first place.. because i've torn the majority down now and started some new ones
Comments
And I sincerely and fervently hope this does not come over as either patronising or superior...I sincerely apologise if it does - I hope folks know me well enough by now to know I am not like that -
OBSERVE THE SPELLING....
the two Sound virtually identical when spoken, but are not only spelled differently, they mean different things - although as is perfectly evident, the Latin origins are almost the same.
I don't wish to nit-pick - but in this specific case, it is vital to both know the difference, and use the appropriate term correctly....
I dunno what Celebrin meant now....
Does he mean children naturally have a 'Consciousness' right from the word go....or that they have a 'Conscience' right from the word go....?
One, I could discuss, but generally agree with...the other, absolutely not.....
Does anyone else see this? Or is it just me who is confused by (or maybe confusing) the issue.....?
And no, I did not take your question as nit-picking or superior. It is difficult to have a discussion if we're not using the same vocabulary!!
I THINK....conscience, we are born with the capacity. I think we have an innate sense. I have seen documentaries on chimpanzees that show compassion and sadness in certain situations. Not to compare us with monkeys, but I'd like to think that we are more developed...
we have what we call, consciousness. We have a sense of awareness (hopefully).
Consciousness, IMO, is where things can get tricky because is it more perception...
but I suppose morality can be too....
YIKES.....
I knew I should've just kept my mouth zipped.....
:buck:
out society isn't natural, living in caves ,bashing things, wrestling with your best mate over a girl is..
all views have been influenced by society and it is now impossible to escape and have a 100% clear view of the world without being influenced. Humanity cannot escape from humanity and ignorance and wisdom are blurrily passed from person to person if they want them or not.
as for the kid, he got his own idea's before i ever talked to him, and i never offend anyone, i'm not a loud mouthed person. I only speak to ppl if i feel comfortable with them or i feel like chatting.. which is rare.. I have never insulted him, all i ever said was "dude i'm not gay" i keep to myself generally.. its much easier to type words on a keyboard to anomymous ppl.
And Kids at 3 will try to help their parents out..share thigns with their parents thats showing conscience alone..
And yes he wants to beat me up.. He's a classic kid.. I'd say about 80% of kids under 16 are homophobic.. i used to be.. but i realised it was stupid course he's probs nearing 17 or 18 now..
Conscience is taught.
Consciousness is something, however, that is always with us, even in an unnconscious state.... How many times, as young children, have we been mysteriously aware of something beyond us, going on.... a deep-seated conviction, for example, that "there must be more to it, than this.....?" The suspicion that there are bigger better things to be seen than we can see right now, is not unusual....
I have heard the phrase said, of very young children, "She/he's been here before...."
The 'ahaaah!' moments, the 'mini-awakenings' the lightbulbs coming on.... all particles of Existent Consciousness manifesting and coming to the surface, from the UNconscious....
Celebrin....
I really don't know where we are going with your discussion....
it's somewhat off-topic.....
But it is dammed wrong to say that we do not need either of them.
Philosophy of ethics.
i knew what u meant,
people dont have consciousness from the word go..
way i remember things, it kinda fades in.. we talking about age 3 .. 4 when you develop full conscienceness
so yea i agree... and my topic.. merr i say something and 4 people ask me questions about it..
and yea conscious is invented..
take a dog, tell it whats bad.. it won't do it again.. same applies with humans.. in all honestly i wouldnt feel guilty if i hadn't been taught to as a kid.. i cud run about acting like a loony bashing ppl with planks of wood lol damn u society!! (j/k)
I guess that shows I have strong resolve? :tongue2: (Or maybe I was just a hard-headed little girl. Who knows.) I just remember how strict all my teachers were - when we got our book order catalogues for the year, they told us to mark out any and all fiction novels :O That was traumatizing - I've always been an avid science-fiction reader, and then they just cut me off?! WHY?!
My school is very good with addressing different religions and diversity in general - actually, I first really connected with Buddhism in my World History class last year. I don't know why - we learned about all the other 3.5 jillion religions that sprouted from (or were inspired by) Zoroastrianism, but Buddhism and I just kinda clicked. Like old buddies ^_^
Development of moral conscience:
There is no real scientific consensus on how this occurs. It does appear to be "hard wired" into the human being, although it is also grows and develops in the child, adolescent and adult. Its physiology is unclear and there have been many diverse opinions about its psycho-social components.
To those who follow the psychodynamic model of conscious/unconscious, conscience (Freud: SuperEgo) develops to establish a barrier between the two and exists in the pre-conscious. Freud quickly understood (and Eric Berne beautifully describes) how 'parent' figures are introjected by the infant, providing the matrix on which moral and social constructs are subsequently grafted.
To the ancients, the use of stories and myths was a prime method of describing the world around us and how to behave within it. Although we can see how this worked for them, we are less clear about how our own mythologies are at work within us. Joseph Campbell worried that we have no modern myth of the "hero with a thousand faces" but, I fear, he was wrong. There is a prevailing myth of personal freedom, market forces, what constitutes "good" behaviour, etc. These ideas are so pervasive that we do not even notice that we are conforming to them.
Films, television and, above all, the home and peers provide the templates for belief and behaviour.
Consciousness:
This is quite separate from conscience, which is a discrimination between OK and not-OK in behaviour.
The fundamental confusion is between consciousness and life itself. Modern humans appear to ascribe consciousness in a far more limited and reductionist way than our ancestors. We reserve the term, essentially, to those organisms which have individually-willed mobility (as a species). Thus, we refuse to see consciousness in mountains or rocks, rivers, sea or sky. Plants are more or less excluded too. Animals (called "dumb", meaning unable to speak) are granted some recognition of their consciousness - as witnessed by laws against cruelty to animals. (Note: There is a whole different discussion here but I believe that these distinctions have a lot to do with the food chain)
Humans are considered to be conscious even when they are paralysed, so long as they respond to external stimuli.
"Religious" Education:
From the many responses here, it is clear that the teaching received by some people is dangerously defective. We are rightly appalled when we learn that young people are leaving school unable to read or count. It is just as serious that they also leave without any sense of or practice in any of the mind-calming, compassion-eliciting disciplines.
Too many of my friends have left their "faith" schools (run by lay or religious) with hatred in their hearts. It is why my work is often subtitled "Don't throw out the baby". The waters of religion may be filthy and cold and stinking but, within, is the baby of the spiritual, the mysterious. Poor education leaves our people hungry and thirsty for they know not what. They are quite right to be angry - they have been disinherited and have no legacy of calm mindfulness.
we had a nutter teaching our class, who made us pray for 1 member of the classes soul and told us we would all go to hell if we didnt recant on our death bed..
he also said we'd go to hell even if we were on our way to confession when we got hit by car and died..
dude was a total lunatic.. and got fired from the school.. i dont remember half of what he said but I've heard countless stories from people..
as for my other teachers in RE.. well they were all crap too .. a few had no motivation and didnt seem to care about teaching at all..
and then you get the stuck up christian tutor (my last 1) 4 years ago.. and that really didnt help much..
you have to nourish seeds.. and they started to grow them then kind of let them grow wild.. while they taught us about nothing useful..
although some people don't seem to be affected by bad RE teaching.. i think what it is
when you are in pain and suffering and depression.. you need some spiritual guidance.. not all people need this because they seem to always be happy anyway.. but people like me need something to help us get rid of it and bad RE teaching and no advice.. no religion.. no compassion.. no anything ..no teachings about how to live.. just leaves us in a state of pain. . it doesnt apply to all.. but if they plan of starting something they should actually finish it
it would have been more helpful if they hadn't started the seeds in the first place.. because i've torn the majority down now and started some new ones