Entering the Stream

HookahCaterpillar

Hello All

Do you think its possible to enter the stream (the stage Sotāpanna/the first stage of enlightenment) without being knowledgable about Buddhism?

taiyaki

Yes, because the selflessness of all things is a seal, meaning already so.

So it is possible for someone to come to the conclusion the buddha came to. I recall they are the private buddhas!

But it is more likely and good fortune if one has an opportunity to hear the dharma, then their chances of attaining the stream. But one doesn't attain anything. To proclaim oneself as entering the stream and taking pride that is foolishness. A subject is just a misperception.

Peel the onion and all you're left with is the smell. Once the smell is gone, whats left?

Talisman

What a question to ask!
Stop fooling around and get back to work!

AMH

yes, buddhism is one path, a very awesome path, but all paths can lead the same place.

BonsaiDoug

yes, buddhism is one path, a very awesome path, but all paths can lead the same place.

Reminds me of a quote from HH Dalai Lama: "People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they’re not on your road doesn’t mean they’ve gotten lost."

Zero

There is a teaching where the Buddha is sitting in a leafy forest and he holds a fallen leaf and says "this leaf is the buddhist teachings leading to enlightenment" and then he points to all the other leaves on the ground and says "There are all the other teachings"... something like that.

Many paths... many forms of life...

patbb

it's possible but far more often people confuse what happen in the arising and passing away stage with entering the stream.

According to vipassana teachers all over, all of those big "awakening" people refering to things like "i opened my eyes for the first time" "i saw god" "kundalini awakening"...
"I got enlighten now!" all of the great philosophers or people who meditate a bit in their life, most of them are a result of the arising and passing away.

the stream entry apparently is a very underwhelming event.

HookahCaterpillar

"the stream entry apparently is a very underwhelming event. "

how do you imagine the stream entry to be?

HookahCaterpillar

"Many paths... many forms of life... "

Many paths (i.e. ways of acting/thinking) exist that all lead to where the buddha's ideas do?

- is there an idea that there is, in any culture, something similar to the noble 8 fold path?

Jeffrey

http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol5/stages-of-the-path.pdf

Heres a discussion ^up

pegembara

Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, no longer
bound to the lower world…. A noble disciple possesses firm confidence with wisdom in
the Buddha … the Dhamma … the Saṅgha…. He possesses the virtues dear to the noble
ones … leading to concentration.

A noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer…. A noble disciple
possesses firm confidence with wisdom in the Buddha … the Dhamma … the Saṅgha….
He dwells at home devoid of the stain of stinginess, freely generous, open-handed,
delighting in relinquishment, one devoted to the requests of others, delighting in giving
and sharing….

They have seen, attained, realized and penetrated the Dhamma, passed beyond
doubt, did away with confusion, and gained perfect confidence, and become
independent of others in the Teacher’s dispensation.

sova

There is a teaching where the Buddha is sitting in a leafy forest and he holds a fallen leaf and says "this leaf is the buddhist teachings leading to enlightenment" and then he points to all the other leaves on the ground and says "There are all the other teachings"... something like that.

I vaguely recall what you are referring to, I think. *scrambles to look it up*

*takes a deep breath*

*chills out for a minute*

*goes to Momma Google to posit his question*

and...

aha. Access to Insight is, indeed, invaluable.

From the section on "Strategies of Self and Not-self"

To understand why, it's useful to look at the Buddha's approach to teaching — and to questions — in general. Once he was walking through a forest with a group of monks. He stooped down to pick up a handful of leaves and told the monks that the leaves in his hand were like the teachings he had given. As for the leaves in the forest, they were like the knowledge he had gained in his awakening. The leaves in his hand covered just two issues: how suffering is caused and how it can be ended .

After his awakening, the Buddha could have talked about anything at all, but he chose to talk on just these two topics. To understand his teachings, we have to understand not only what he said about suffering and its end, but also why these topics were of utmost importance.

The purpose of his teachings was to help people find true happiness. He didn't assume that all beings are inherently good or inherently bad, but he did assume that they all want happiness. However, they tend to be bewildered by their suffering, so they need help in finding a way to genuine happiness. In fact, this sense of bewilderment gives rise to one of the mind's most primal questions: "Is there anyone who knows how to put an end to this suffering?" The Buddha's teachings are a direct response to this burning, gut-level question, providing people with something they desperately want and need: advice on how to end their suffering. In other words, the Buddha chose to share the most compassionate knowledge he could provide.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/selvesnotself.html

patbb

"the stream entry apparently is a very underwhelming event. "

how do you imagine the stream entry to be?

well i never really thought of it.

if you are curious, go to
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion;jsessionid=D54D246BC9DB9CE9635E928BE97A425A
or
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion;jsessionid=D54D246BC9DB9CE9635E928BE97A425A

those are two of the communities talking openly about it.

so you can find perhaps a dozen people who went through it, and describe it in detail.

federica

Moved from 'Buddhism for Beginners' to 'Advanced Ideas'.

HookahCaterpillar

"In other words, the Buddha chose to share the most compassionate knowledge he could provide."

Yes but i dont think this addresses the question.

i'll give an example. The inherent connectedness of all things seems essential to digest but we can also find this idea in Biology. Here, a biologist could say

"In recent years, an increasing number of biologists have become critical of the view that complex biological systems can be fully explained, in a reductionist manner, by the physico-chemical properties of their constituent parts."

"[Anitreductionists] stress that biological systems possess emergent (also called relational) properties that do not exist in the isolated components and that it is these properties that allow autonomous organisms to be directively organized in a self-regulated and integrated manner."

Hence we come to this truth without ever hearing the name of Buddha.

http://epigenomique.free.fr/LILLE_08/fr/Precedentes/LivreEvry-04.pdf#page=123

Zero

Guess it depends on how much significance you attach to Buddha himself...

Not sure about the 8 fold path - that is a very succinct form for dealing with suffering - the concepts exist accross other 'faith' systems but not expressed in quite the same way.

I tend to think that the universe is pretty diverse... more diverse than fits into my head - seems somewhat illogical to suppose that the things that make sense in my head would be universal... but I guess it is possible - the same abstract goal but totally different paths...

I think if you're looking for verification that the same experience is possible via different methods, then I'm not sure - all I can be sure of is that the experience is possible via this system and if it is possible then isnt the search kind of over? Well atleast the search for ceasing suffering anyway...

Thanks @sova... you've refreshed it for me again... I recounted it somewhat incorrectly...

upekka

how do you imagine the stream entry to be?

beyond imagination

practice Noble Eightfold Path with the 'Faith' in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and when the time and space will be right the experience of 'stream entry' will be there

no need to ask from 'others'