Does Zen mainly focus on the Meditation/Concentration aspects of the Noble 8 fold path?

Peace2012ca

It seems to me from my studies that Zen seems to be an entirely different beast on its own.

Question
(1) Does Zen completely downplay academic discussions of the buddha? Is it just sitting?
(2) Is Zen the most "cold"? The saummari used it and there are no meditations on loving-kindness or compassion. Just "sitting".
(3) Is Zen the best tradition to study to become "brave" due to its history of use

zenff

1) Yes
2) No
3) No

I think putting practice over academic discussion is quite essential.
The rest of what you see is macho-stuff. I wouldn’t say it isn’t there but I think it is a bit silly; not essential.

Dakini

I think there are cultural differences. Zen does seem more austere, and there have been complaints of verbal abuse on the part of some roshis. I've heard that Vietnamese Zen is completely different, though. Vietnamese culture is gentler, and the masters there disapprove of harsh words. According to a friend who studied Vietnamese Zen, they do give regular dharma teachings. It seems like a more balanced approach.

Welcome, Peace. Make yourself at home.

genkaku

I suppose every discipline lays a similar claim, but to my mind, Zen practice goes for the throat. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you do, for some insane reason, like it, then be prepared to take the Buddhist admonition seriously ... "find out for yourself."

It is said that there are two sharp edges to the enlightened sword -- unflinching clarity and uncompromising compassion. For conversational purposes, these two aspects can be called ... two aspects. In reality -- that is, in a realm in which you find out for yourself -- there is no such thing as "two aspects." Clarity is compassion; compassion is clarity. End of discussion. Clarity and compassion flow in and out of each other naturally ... no need for conversation: It's just the way things are. And how things are reveals itself in what might be called a go-for-the-throat practice.

Just my take.

Dakini

What the OP (and genkaku) is describing is Japanese Zen. There are other Zens: Chinese Zen (Ch'an) and Vietnamese Zen. These latter two don't fit the description. I'd recommend exploring all Zens before deciding on one.

seeker242

It seems to me from my studies that Zen seems to be an entirely different beast on its own.

Question
(1) Does Zen completely downplay academic discussions of the buddha? Is it just sitting?
(2) Is Zen the most "cold"? The saummari used it and there are no meditations on loving-kindness or compassion. Just "sitting".
(3) Is Zen the best tradition to study to become "brave" due to its history of use

1. Not necessarily. There is quite a lot of "philosophy" in some zen traditions. But nearly all zen traditions agree that intellectual understanding really can't help you. Only experiential understanding can, which is why actual practice is considered so important.
2. Not necessarily. Many zen teachers say things like "Zen means 'How can I help you?" or things like "The purpose of practicing zen is to save all beings from suffering". Compassion is an essential part of zen practice in all traditions. Although, the actual practice when you go sit on a cushion is usually zazen, but it is done not just with the intent to help yourself, but to help everyone.
3. All Buddhist traditions cause you to become brave when you gain experience in practicing them. Is zen the best? It depends on the person practicing it.

>Does Zen mainly focus on the Meditation/Concentration aspects of the Noble 8 fold path?

Not necessarily. Following the precepts is also considered essential.

conradcook

My old Zen master (Korean style) wrote that he grew up Quaker, and was ashamed because when they were speaking when the spirit moved them, his Mom would be moved to speak much more than anyone else.

Someone returned to their group and denounced Zen as having no compassion. This caused him to leave the Society of Friends and join the Zen tradition that had been denounced.

As I understand it, Zen does focus on Just Sitting... or Just Washing the Dishes, Just Gardening, Just Doing What You're Doing -- plus the sacred riddles, the koans.

I suspect some Zen practitioners do in fact do compassion meditations. I don't think they're forbidden. Just not emphasised.


Conrad.

genkaku

My experience of Zen practice is that no matter what route is embraced, other routes invariably assert their wisdom. Pedal-to-the-metal clarity efforts segue seamlessly into a compassion that cannot be eluded. Compassionate practice leads by necessity to an understanding that clarity is imperative. Sitting requires standing up. Standing up requires sitting down. Instead of "two peas in a pod," perhaps, for conversational purposes, we could call it one pea in the pod.

RichardH

The image of Zen Buddhism as cold and macho is maybe more about Zen than Zen Buddhism. There is a another kind Zen that doesn't seem to teach essential Buddhism (The Four Noble Truths). I have a friend who practices the martial arts and says it is Zen. She also says Bodhidharma was a martial arts teacher, and founder of her lineage, which is maybe no stranger than the other myths around lineage...well maybe a bit stranger, at least to me. Somewhere along the line Zen or at least Zen technology was appropriated by a martial ethic. My friend says it is deeply ethical and compassionate, and I won't doubt it, but in popular imagination Zen can also be about the non-duality of chopping someone's head off, or taking someone out with a blow.

....oh so it looks from here. I practice plain old vanilla Zen Buddhism and have found much warmth and support.

Peace2012ca

Thank you everyone for your insightful responses.

I do agree Zen and Zen Buddhism have been confused. Nowhere did the Buddha encourage violence like the sumari inflicted.

However, I read the book "Eat, Sleep, Sit" which details a japanese monk's first year in a monestary(actually one of the most rigorous ones) He describes supervisor monks beating and insulting the novices...pushing and shoving them. What KIND OF PERVERTED BUDDHISM is that? Aren't those monks breaking the precepts? Even if they teach the newbies mindfulness, they're doing it in an unskillful way. What's up with the harsh Japanese training? Why is everything about military.

RichardH

Thank you everyone for your insightful responses.

I do agree Zen and Zen Buddhism have been confused. Nowhere did the Buddha encourage violence like the sumari inflicted.

However, I read the book "Eat, Sleep, Sit" which details a japanese monk's first year in a monestary(actually one of the most rigorous ones) He describes supervisor monks beating and insulting the novices...pushing and shoving them. What KIND OF PERVERTED BUDDHISM is that? Aren't those monks breaking the precepts? Even if they teach the newbies mindfulness, they're doing it in an unskillful way. What's up with the harsh Japanese training? Why is everything about military.

I started out with a very tough teacher, not physically, but pretty sharp in other ways. .... I can't say it was abuse in that situation.. it was direct. very direct, and I knew what it was about. It was a culture shock compared to the gentle Theravadin scene I was used to at the time. Since then I've met Zen teachers who are not like that at all, very gentle and patient, very ordinary. There can be abuse in any tradition where there is a risk of fixating on a notion of "The Absolute", so that conventional morality, a common sense of right and wrong, and even empathy, can be suspended. The result is people behaving badly and saying it is all an original perfection. The student can also get sucked into a cult-like loss of perspective where whatever the teacher does is a teaching, and a manifestation of his radical wisdom. It's an old story, and I'm obviously just giving one perspective here, but the bottom line for Buddhism, Zen or otherwise, are the precepts, and I think most people here would agree with that. If someone is consistently and severely flouting the the precepts, there is no excuse or justification.

Iktomi

(1) Does Zen completely downplay academic discussions of the buddha? Is it just sitting?

Yes.

(2) Is Zen the most "cold"? The saummari used it and there are no meditations on loving-kindness or compassion. Just "sitting".

Yes.

(3) Is Zen the best tradition to study to become "brave" due to its history of use

NNNOOOOO!!!

RichardH

(1) Does Zen completely downplay academic discussions of the buddha? Is it just sitting?

Yes.

(2) Is Zen the most "cold"? The saummari used it and there are no meditations on loving-kindness or compassion. Just "sitting".

Yes.

There is discussion as well as practice, the amount depends on the tradition. There can be forms of loving-kindness practice, that also it depends on the tradition. Zen Buddhism is not a monolith. This is a straightforward assertion.

Iktomi

(1) Does Zen completely downplay academic discussions of the buddha? Is it just sitting?

Yes.

(2) Is Zen the most "cold"? The saummari used it and there are no meditations on loving-kindness or compassion. Just "sitting".

Yes.

There is discussion as well as practice, the amount depends on the tradition. There can be forms of loving-kindness practice, that also it depends on the tradition. Zen Buddhism is not a monolith. This is a straightforward assertion.

Zen |zen|(also Zen Buddhism )
noun
a Japanese school of Mahayana Buddhism emphasizing the value of meditation and intuition.

lamaramadingdong

It's the study of what you already know.

RichardH

Hi Iktomi. I will not argue with you. My post is a fare enough statement.

Iktomi

Hi Iktomi. I will not argue with you. My post is a fare enough statement.

Uh, what you meant to say is that you won't argue with the New Oxford American Dictionary. That is wise.

RichardH

Spare me the Zen master pose. The internet.

Jeffrey

@Iktomi, how are the fish biting?

Iktomi

Spare me the Zen master pose. The internet.

??? Zen master no use dictionary. It too dual.

Iktomi

@Iktomi, how are the fish biting?

Howz the broken record spinning?

Jeffrey

Iktomi

Well Jeffrey, in response to the persistent query, you appear to be hungry for something but it's a mystery to me.

RichardH

I apologize for being rude.

Iktomi

All is forgiven.

Jeffrey

I was trying to joke around with you. I thought you were looking for debate. Was I wrong?

Iktomi

All is forgiven.

Jeffrey

Thanks

seeker242

Thank you everyone for your insightful responses.

I do agree Zen and Zen Buddhism have been confused. Nowhere did the Buddha encourage violence like the sumari inflicted.

However, I read the book "Eat, Sleep, Sit" which details a japanese monk's first year in a monestary(actually one of the most rigorous ones) He describes supervisor monks beating and insulting the novices...pushing and shoving them. What KIND OF PERVERTED BUDDHISM is that? Aren't those monks breaking the precepts? Even if they teach the newbies mindfulness, they're doing it in an unskillful way. What's up with the harsh Japanese training? Why is everything about military.

That is Eiheiji Temple in Japan, the most strict and rigorous zen temple in the whole entire world. Not really indicative of zen practice as a whole. The monks are not breaking the precepts though, they are instilling training discipline. It is a "hard knocks" training style, which is not really unskillful because some kinds of people benefit greatly from such a training style. It's certainly not for everyone but for the people who it is for, they derive a great benefit from it.