Solipsism

Jeffrey

Is it possible to prove or disprove solipsism? Solipsism is the idea that only you exist and the world is just a manifestation? It seems impossible to me because I am so surprised and confused... and my vanity believes I couldn't have created this

RichardH

Seeing the world, including other people, as just in your head, and the subjectivity of other people as not as real as your own, is a potentially dangerous mind-state. I think if someone is tending toward that, they should seek help, and make an effort to connect with other people emotionally, and engage in their community.

Jeffrey

When I said confused I meant other people always comes from a surprsise direction. So no I don't believe in solipsism. It can't be. I just wondered if there was any proof. I think it is just intuited and I think our evident natural wisdom so to speak is a wonderful thing that we should appreciate and can add beauty to our lives. So I guess I am counting my blessings. And a little lonely

taiyaki

here is the problem.
it really depends on what you mean by "exist" and what you mean by "you".
to say only phenomena exists is incorrect, neither is to deny phenomena correct.
to say only you exist is incorrect, neither is to deny the self is correct.
these are the thoughts that popped into my head as i read this.

Jeffrey

Great thoughts and I'll take them with a grain of salt.

taiyaki

subjectivity exists only if the other is posited.

since there is no true subjectivity other than in philosophy, it is invalid upon further experiential examination.

but maybe you just want to talk philosophy?

Jeffrey

No there is a wonder. How do we know there are other people? We know it!!!!

RichardH

here is the problem.
it really depends on what you mean by "exist" and what you mean by "you".
to say only phenomena exists is incorrect, neither is to deny phenomena correct.
to say only you exist is incorrect, neither is to deny the self is correct.
these are the thoughts that popped into my head as i read this.

I exist, I am here, eating a baguette with tuna and tomato. If by dwelling on "No self" or "Not self" I begin to lose track of that... I have a problem. I'm getting screwy on Buddhism.

taiyaki

You only exist as a nominal projection on the basis of mind and body.

But upon looking for self in the mind and body you cannot find self because it is a symbolic projection. So based on mind and body we project "Albert" and the various stories, etc.

If this nominal projection isn't posited then all there is, is various phenomena manifesting based on causes/conditions. So sound, thoughts, sensations, smells, tastes, noises, etc.

The self is just an inference based on habit.

That is emptiness of Self.

But there is an individual mind/body stream. This is different than anyone elses stream. My karma is not shared with you, my karma is mine and mine alone.

It really depends on what we call self and what we define as existence.

Because you can see it as being alone in the world or you can see it as being the world.

I like the idea that we are everything and yet separate. So we are intimately unique and individual yet completely interdependent and connected.

taiyaki

I remember reading today about seeing the world as a play of the dharmakaya's energy.

The mandala is you and your world revolves around you.

And this is where Mahayana starts to make sense. If the boundaries between self and other are lucid rather than concrete then everything in the field of experience is intimately a part of you. But at the same time peace and happiness one attains is only in the individual mindstream. But maybe even that individual mindstream is just asserting dualism and really the nirvana posited by the buddha is a part of everything intrinsically.
and really suffering beings are only suffering beings because of their karma. but if we see suffering beings isn't that our karma to see suffering being? does a bodhisattva play in between two worlds of seeing beyond the projection and seeing the projection?



just another thought for you jeffrey. something i've been pondering for a while.

weighted

Isn't solipsism also a kind of narcissism?

RichardH

You only exist as a nominal projection on the basis of mind and body.

But upon looking for self in the mind and body you cannot find self because it is a symbolic projection. So based on mind and body we project "Albert" and the various stories, etc.

If this nominal projection isn't posited then all there is, is various phenomena manifesting based on causes/conditions. So sound, thoughts, sensations, smells, tastes, noises, etc.

The self is just an inference based on habit.

That is emptiness of Self.

But there is an individual mind/body stream. This is different than anyone elses stream. My karma is not shared with you, my karma is mine and mine alone.

It really depends on what we call self and what we define as existence.

Because you can see it as being alone in the world or you can see it as being the world.

I like the idea that we are everything and yet separate. So we are intimately unique and individual yet completely interdependent and connected.

You said alot here so I will just take this ..The self is just an inference based on habit.

You only exist as a nominal projection on the basis of mind and body.

But upon looking for self in the mind and body you cannot find self because it is a symbolic projection. So based on mind and body we project "Albert" and the various stories, etc.

If this nominal projection isn't posited then all there is, is various phenomena manifesting based on causes/conditions. So sound, thoughts, sensations, smells, tastes, noises, etc.

The self is just an inference based on habit.

That is emptiness of Self.

But there is an individual mind/body stream. This is different than anyone elses stream. My karma is not shared with you, my karma is mine and mine alone.

It really depends on what we call self and what we define as existence.

Because you can see it as being alone in the world or you can see it as being the world.

I like the idea that we are everything and yet separate. So we are intimately unique and individual yet completely interdependent and connected.

That's all good. ...and I'm sure you know that many, if not most people who log on here are familiar with these ideas. What I am more interested in is how Buddhism can help new people function in a healthy way, while having appropriate boundaries on the level of ordinary mental health. We can deconstruct all of it, and that is not a tall order. We can also with some effort experience the emptiness of all phenomena, including body and mind, ..but what seems to be an issue for many new people coming to Buddhism, is a need for grounded support, ordinary sanity, like when the Buddha touches the ordinary sane Earth. I've come to the view (debatable for sure) that Emptiness and no-self talk might not be the best intro for people who are not in a healthy relationship with conventional shared reality, and suffering alienation.

This is just my thing maybe. We can use Buddhism to get very "high", and "empty", and that might be the last thing some folks need. They might need some really solid ground.

taiyaki

@RichardH

To be honest with you I generally do not talk to people in real life about Buddhism unless they have a healthy frame of mind. And generally I talk about basic concepts and more practical ideas rather than emptiness of non-self. While these teachings can have a profoundly positive effect on an individual if taken correctly, they are taught later on in ones practice by a teacher for a reason.

Most of us when we start touch base with the basics like the four noble truths and eight fold path. And really this is what most people need and that is basically the whole Buddhist practice. I really stress loving kindness and compassion as these karmically open up the potential for one to realize wisdom for oneself.

So I am in total agreement with you.

On what I posted:

If everything is conditioned by body, speech and mind. Then we can change our actions of body, speech and mind. We can change because our "self" isn't solid but rather is a process. This is great news because this makes it possible for us to become better people.

This is emptiness in a nut shell. We are empty of being permanent, but rather we are constantly changing. Thus this empowers an individual to realize that they don't have to be a suffering being and that their current circumstance can change if they are willing to work for it.

Buddhism is all about having a healthy sense of self and a genuine sense of being a human.

Well we are quite off topic so sorry mods!

person

@Jeffrey I think maybe knowledge is a possible proof against solopsism. How can you learn something previously unknown to you. Also conceptual frameworks like economics, chemistry, etc. are working outside of ones awareness to effect things within the awareness. If one doesn't know them or how they work, how is it possible for them to work effectively if you don't know about them.

Just a thought.

ThailandTom

Interesting topic, although person seems to have nailed the notion out of possibility on the head. Didn't the Washington sniper believe in this kind of thing?

zombiegirl

I had never heard of "solipsism" but now that I know it exists, I have known someone who prescribes to this idea. He told me during a heart to heart that he accidentally ingested copious amounts of acid once (this I knew) and told me about how he now feels that the entire world is a manifestation of his mind and exists only for him (this part was news to me).

I didn't mean for it to happen, but this revelation changed the way that I thought about him and actually set into motion the end of our friendship. Do I really need to explain why a girl might feel somewhat put off to be told by a man that he feels everything around him is created especially for him? It was after this that I began to see manipulative tendencies and that the things that I said/felt were really only taken with a grain of salt since his narcissistic inclinations forced him to feel that he really knew better. It took a very long time to disentangle myself from this person and I lost a lot of mutual friends because of it, unfortunately, but something was just off about the entire situation. The more he pushed me regarding our lost friendship, the more I felt convinced I had made the right decision to end it.

I'm not sure if it's impossible to disprove it, but I will say that the belief in it is very unskillful to say the least... imagine what a monster you could become.

Jeffrey

If the boundaries between self and other are lucid rather than concrete then everything in the field of experience is intimately a part of you.

What do you mean by lucid?

Jeffrey

@Jeffrey I think maybe knowledge is a possible proof against solopsism. How can you learn something previously unknown to you. Also conceptual frameworks like economics, chemistry, etc. are working outside of ones awareness to effect things within the awareness. If one doesn't know them or how they work, how is it possible for them to work effectively if you don't know about them.

It seems one would have to posit a self to say there is something unknown. In learning just learning.

Jeffrey

I'm not sure if it's impossible to disprove it, but I will say that the belief in it is very unskillful to say the least... imagine what a monster you could become.

I agree. It is remarkable that you only saw the incompatibility of you and this person after a philosophical discussion, I'm sure that isn't what happened though maybe it crystallized for you there.

taiyaki

If the boundaries between self and other are lucid rather than concrete then everything in the field of experience is intimately a part of you.

What do you mean by lucid?

maybe lucid was a poor choice in language.

the only boundaries are conceptual.

zombiegirl

I'm not sure if it's impossible to disprove it, but I will say that the belief in it is very unskillful to say the least... imagine what a monster you could become.

I agree. It is remarkable that you only saw the incompatibility of you and this person after a philosophical discussion, I'm sure that isn't what happened though maybe it crystallized for you there.

It was a long time coming. It was one of those friendships where you constantly feel a little off-kilter, but you can't quite put your finger on what it is that makes you feel that way about the person. But since I couldn't really solidify my feelings, I never wanted to do something so drastic as ending the friendship (we did have a lot of mutual friends and in doing so, it did disrupt a certain dynamic)... But once he explained that particular view to me, I began to see the bigger picture. I began to see the words between the lines of what he actually said to me. They were always there, making me feel slightly nervous, but I couldn't decipher what they were telling me until that final piece fell in place. He was a very manipulative person in general and this was part of how he became so successful, surprisingly, in some circles... celebrity status, although I will not divulge what he is known for.

Let me put it this way, it's not exactly that we were incompatible, I really did enjoy his friendship... It's just that at one point I was made aware that friendship was not his goal and my thoughts on the topic mattered very little (like... the fact that I am a lesbian in a long term relationship). I couldn't be friends with someone whose view of the world revolved around the belief that the world was of his own design. In his mind, I really had no free will, I existed as some sort of test or challenge but the concept that he would not reach his goal was not possible to him. He was too smart to actually come out and say any of this, so I am projecting here, but it really was the messiest breakup I've ever had from a friend and just the fact that he seemed to make it so hard for me to detach from him really solidified this for me.

Jeffrey

The things that don't make sense to me are believing the world was his own design. I have glasses and I wouln't have designed the world for me to need them for example. I got that example from the Dalai Lama's interview with Barbara Walters when asked if he was a God.

Viewing you as a test or challenge speaks to me. As a schizophrenic in my therapy one of the insights I had was that 'key' was a powerful word to me. I have to confess that I like to think of relationships as a challenge.

I know that feeling when the magic is gone. I believe this person was attached to the past and ignoring signals from you thinking 'if I just... it will be better'..

Some of this is natural I mean why do people get out of bed in the morning?

Zero

Is it possible to prove or disprove solipsism? Solipsism is the idea that only you exist and the world is just a manifestation?
It seems impossible to me because I am so surprised and confused... and my vanity believes I couldn't have created this

It is not possible to prove or disprove - atleast not within the context of your current existence.

I guess the surprise has passed now? The confusion arises because there is no way to prove or disprove it.

It doesnt make any difference though - would you live or think differently if it were true say?

Jeffrey

zero, I think it makes a big difference. it is true zen awake. but I think you know what I mean in the first two sentences? maybe

ittybittybat

See, this is some icky stuff. I don't know, you probably can't prove or disprove this theory.

Because it could all be in your head. For all you know you could be in an oven or something...makin' this all up.

zombiegirl

The things that don't make sense to me are believing the world was his own design. I have glasses and I wouln't have designed the world for me to need them for example. I got that example from the Dalai Lama's interview with Barbara Walters when asked if he was a God.

Viewing you as a test or challenge speaks to me. As a schizophrenic in my therapy one of the insights I had was that 'key' was a powerful word to me. I have to confess that I like to think of relationships as a challenge.

I know that feeling when the magic is gone. I believe this person was attached to the past and ignoring signals from you thinking 'if I just... it will be better'..

Some of this is natural I mean why do people get out of bed in the morning?

Remember that this insight came as the result of a very serious acid trip. Our mutual friends were the ones who watched him during those several days, so I know this experience to be true. He had a lot of other remaining issues as a result of it (visual disturbances), but in specific, during his trip he told me that he felt god had specifically told him that the world existed for him. I think part of him knew it sounded crazy, but there was also a part of him that felt so moved by the profound experience that he had trouble disbelieving it. It wasn't so much that he was like an all-powerful god in this life, it was just that everything existed for him for one reason or another (learning lesson, etc.) almost as if he was truly the only real entity in the world. This was my understanding of what he was telling me anyways. I remember telling him that I was real, but he sort of smiled and said something along the lines of, "Well, of course you'd say that."

person

@Jeffrey I think maybe knowledge is a possible proof against solopsism. How can you learn something previously unknown to you. Also conceptual frameworks like economics, chemistry, etc. are working outside of ones awareness to effect things within the awareness. If one doesn't know them or how they work, how is it possible for them to work effectively if you don't know about them.

It seems one would have to posit a self to say there is something unknown. In learning just learning.

Well, a posited self seems inherent in the notion of solipsism. So I guess my idea exists within that framework.

Jeffrey

@Jeffrey I think maybe knowledge is a possible proof against solopsism. How can you learn something previously unknown to you. Also conceptual frameworks like economics, chemistry, etc. are working outside of ones awareness to effect things within the awareness. If one doesn't know them or how they work, how is it possible for them to work effectively if you don't know about them.

It seems one would have to posit a self to say there is something unknown. In learning just learning.

Well, a posited self seems inherent in the notion of solipsism. So I guess my idea exists within that framework.

Ah yes, I understand now.

Jeffrey

@zombiegirl, I think there is a middle road between extremes. The world doesn't exist 'for me', but that doesn't mean it is 'not for me'. Make sense?

Zero

but I think you know what I mean in the first two sentences? maybe

I think it makes a big difference.

I think I do - it cant be proven either way - thats the natural state!! good one...

I dont see it makes a difference though - whatever the ultimate answer, you choose how to live your life now whether you have an answer or not.

For example, are you kind to someone because you want to go to heaven or reach enlightenment or are you kind because thats just the most pleasant within the context of a human existence.

Jeffrey

Zero, I think it reminds us what people signify to us.