Alcohol

ClayTheScribe

So I know this has probably been discussed before, but I could not find the thread immediately in the search engine (I haven't had much luck with it in general). The Buddha instructed his followers not to drink alcohol or consume intoxicants in the five precepts. However I have run into people who practice Buddhism who do consume alcohol. Do you drink or not? Why or why not? If you drink, how does it interact or interfere with spiritual practice? Or does it? I don't want to get into moral arguments of whether we should or should not, just how you approach it in your practice

I personally am a recovering alcoholic and am 2 1/2 years sober and was delighted to see The Buddha advised against it so I could use it as a way to strengthen my recovery. Now if I feel someone will judge me for being an alcoholic I just tell them I don't drink as a Buddhist.

Dakini

The best way to do searches is on Google. Type in "New Buddhist"fyi, for future reference.

ClayTheScribe

OK I did a search and most of them were asking if it was wrong or not. I am not in this case. Just how each person approaches it in their practice. If the mods think this will cause problems, please shut it down.

Dakini

Not a problem. Some people approach the precepts as to be strictly adhered to, others approach them as goals to strive for. Also, there are differences in how to interpret the "heedlessness" part of the precept. Some say no alcohol at all, others say you can have a little, as long as you don't take enough that it causes "heedlessness".

Me, I don't drink, never have, never will. So it's not relevant to me.

Lady_Alison

I'm Muslim but the Koran says intoxicants are haram...but it also says to respect the city or town you are a foreigner in. . . While this is not Buddhist, I want to show you an example.

Sufi Muslims and some Sunni, interpret that differently...so drinking in a special occasion like at a wedding or as a honored guest of a country or home...it is okay.

So really, I think it's about how you interpret the teachings...

I don't drink but I would raise champagne to a friend who is getting married, according to custom.

Raven

I drink, but not excessively. I don't personally feel it harms my practice, though I'm sure there are people on this forum who would argue otherwise. Anything can be a harmful drug/intoxicant if you let it - just watch people mindlessly watch tv or gorge themselves on Mickey D's! For me, it's middle path with booze - a little is ok, too much is not ok. In situations were none is ok, that's ok too.

As a side note, I've seen it posted here (no, I can't find a link right now, I'm so tired) that the precept states not to take alcohol to become intoxicated - I interpret that as not drinking to get drunk, as opposed to having a glass or two, knowing your own limits.

Telly03

I drink, but I don't get drunk

federica

You don't need to feel drunk, to be 'drunk'....One drink makes a difference.
What you mean is that you moderate yourself to the point that you maintain a comfortable control of your fculties....

ThailandTom

If I drink one drink I will not stop until I pass out. That is just the type of personality I have. There was a study done on monkeys where they put pots of alcohol in their enclosure. They found that if I can recal something like 50% of the monkeys would drink some now and then, 25% tried it but did not do it much at all after that or ever again, and the other 25% would drink daily. The scientists concluded that the human brain could work in a similar way and the percentages could be around the same as well.

Zero

Do you drink or not? Why or why not? If you drink, how does it interact or interfere with spiritual practice? Or does it?

I personally am a recovering alcoholic and am 2 1/2 years sober and was delighted to see The Buddha advised against it so I could use it as a way to strengthen my recovery.

Now if I feel someone will judge me for being an alcoholic I just tell them I don't drink as a Buddhist.

The first part of your question wont in all likelihood assist you - whatever the answer to that is, it is a personal answer - say for example I say, 'no I dont touch a drop because Buddha said so and I havent for 50 years'... you might think 'wow - it works for someone else so it could for me - I am on the right path'... but you know nothing about me - so I may not drink but perhaps I shoot up heroin and kick litte dogs... am I any more in line with Buddha's teachings because I dont drink...?

Be concerned with your own spiritual practice - all the answers are with you already - there is no ultimate universal answer.

Great achievement - conquoring yourself in that way - great that the buddhist prohibition helps you.

That's a good response to allow you to continue - whether it is true or not is immaterial - it helps you to be where you need to be so keep going with it.

Do you think youre questioning this precept because in a way some part of your mind wants to give you an 'excuse' to drink again? just one wont hurt will it?

taiyaki

I drink a lot less than I used to.

Maybe a drink once a month with friends?

But my reasons are quite simple. The mindfulness cultivated in meditation is far more useful and helpful throughout my experience of life.

Whereas alcohol clouds such mindfulness and kind of sets you backwards in terms of being mindful.

All drugs can teach you a lot about samsara. At first you feel great, but later on you suffer for ingesting drugs. So if you're quite consciousness while taking drugs in general you will soon the value in renouncing and see how one is conditioning oneself to follow brief pleasure. It just loses its allure.

patbb

i drink occasionally.

never to the point of being drunk.


i don't have to force myself, i just don't have the urge to do this anymore.


the way i see the 5 precepts is an help to meditation.
you can't meditate if you're drunk.
you can't meditate as well if you are hung over.
thinking about your next/last night out drinking is distracting while meditating.

if you want to make progress and focus on your meditation, people should at least put these things (5 precepts) on hold so they can avoid many distractions and focus on what they are trying to achieve.

Zero

Maybe a drink once a month with friends?

Dont think it works like that for alcoholics - its more an all or nothing issue... if you know youre an alcoholic, you shouldnt drink at all - thats my understanding of it anyway...

taiyaki

I see, I am not an alcoholic so I have no idea what that is like.
I cannot imagine getting addicted to drinking.

One bad night of drinking and I'm done for months.

But I'm assuming alcohol is the form such a pattern of suffering manifests.

Is alcoholism escapism?

Sorry I am just curious. I have friends who drink a lot. I am worried about them.

ThailandTom

Well for me it is. I never get hangovers, I never get physical hangovers from drugs either such as ecstasy. I can drink a half litre of whisky and a few bottles of beer, sleep for 5-6 hours and wake up fine. This is why it is harder for me to stop because the obvious downsides to many are not there to me. And yes, because of social anxiety it is a form of escapism for me. Google it, research it, something like 80% of people with social anxiety will self medicate with drugs or alcohol.

Telly03

You don't need to feel drunk, to be 'drunk'....One drink makes a difference.
What you mean is that you moderate yourself to the point that you maintain a comfortable control of your fculties....

No, what I mean is that I don't get drunk

vinlyn

From the then legal age of 18 until I was in my late 20s, I did drink socially. But, for me it just never seemed like that big a deal. I found I could socialize with a Coke just as easy as a rum and Coke, so I just stopped drinking. It may have helped that my father was an alcoholic and that several relatives bordered on (or were just "over the border") of alcoholism, which I didn't find very attractive at all. So when I started adopting Buddhist principles to my life, that Precept was pretty much taken care of. When I got into my mid-50s I needed to start taking blood pressure meds, and they don't mix very well with alcohol, so that was just one more reason not to drink.

ThailandTom

I think a lot of it comes down to biological makeup, mainly in the brain. But of course that is not everything.

Zero

I cannot imagine getting addicted to drinking.
One bad night of drinking and I'm done for months.

But I'm assuming alcohol is the form such a pattern of suffering manifests.

Is alcoholism escapism?

I'm the same as you - alcohol doesn't agree with me in that way.

I assume so - suffering has many forms.

I suppose alcohol does facilitate escapism - by that analogy I suppose all addictions (even addictions to attachments!) are a form of escapism? escaping reality or the notion of reality.

It ties in quite well to an observation I have had (and have seen echoed by others) that often, the process of showing someone an alternative reality is traumatic for them - the natural inclination is to reject the notion - I guess using the escapism analogy, its akin to confronting people with the very thing that they're trying to escape from (ultimately their own death) - given the number of things people pile up to allow escapism, I suppose it is not pleasant for someone to walk right by every obstruction and start shaking you to face reality!!!

Interesting proposition to ponder.... mabe a counter to an alternative conspiracy theory of a 'systematic and orchestrated conditioning' away from realisation - rather its escapism all the way up and down!!

Tosh

I'm a real alcoholic, and I can maybe help you with your questions:

One bad night of drinking and I'm done for months.

No, you've got to fight through that stage. Try drinking in the morning when you've got a hangover; you'll feel right as rain within a few drinks.

Is alcoholism escapism?

Hmmm. It's something that starts off fun, maybe with some negative consequences, but those are normally worth the experience. And as time progresses, and alcoholism is a progressive illness, you kinda get locked into a cycle of drinking and getting drunk. High anxiety levels mean you have to drink.

I'm not sure it's escaping; a 'coping method' would be a better way to put it. But I'm sure there's an escaping element in there too.

A.A.'s definition of an alcoholic is someone who has both these things:

1. Phenomenon of craving - this means when someone has one-or-two drinks, they crave for more alcohol. I could never, even as a child, just have a few drinks and stop drinking AND feel comfortable. I always felt like I needed more. This meant when I started drinking, I didn't stop till I was drunk.

2. Obsession with alcohol - this is tougher to describe. But it's kinda like when you're not drinking, you're planning your drinking. I'd plan my day so I could start drinking as early as possible. Not drinking felt like Japanese water torture. I just didn't feel right; I was restless, irritable and discontented. Eventually a time would come when I would be ground down enough and 'snap' and I would drink; thereby triggering off the phenomenon of craving, meaning I couldn't control the amount I drank.

These two parts of the problem keep an alcoholic locked into a vicious cycle of drinking and getting drunk.

ClayTheScribe

Do you drink or not? Why or why not? If you drink, how does it interact or interfere with spiritual practice? Or does it?

I personally am a recovering alcoholic and am 2 1/2 years sober and was delighted to see The Buddha advised against it so I could use it as a way to strengthen my recovery.

Now if I feel someone will judge me for being an alcoholic I just tell them I don't drink as a Buddhist.

The first part of your question wont in all likelihood assist you - whatever the answer to that is, it is a personal answer - say for example I say, 'no I dont touch a drop because Buddha said so and I havent for 50 years'... you might think 'wow - it works for someone else so it could for me - I am on the right path'... but you know nothing about me - so I may not drink but perhaps I shoot up heroin and kick litte dogs... am I any more in line with Buddha's teachings because I dont drink...?

Be concerned with your own spiritual practice - all the answers are with you already - there is no ultimate universal answer.

Great achievement - conquoring yourself in that way - great that the buddhist prohibition helps you.

That's a good response to allow you to continue - whether it is true or not is immaterial - it helps you to be where you need to be so keep going with it.

Do you think youre questioning this precept because in a way some part of your mind wants to give you an 'excuse' to drink again? just one wont hurt will it?

I'm not questioning the precept at all, I believe in it. I just wanted to start a discussion because I was curious how others approach it. I wasn't looking for clarification to my own spiritual practice or for alternate means of living. I have no desire or intention to begin drinking again and my dedication to Buddhism strengthens that.

Jeffrey

Trungpa Rinpoche's teachings and life were a balm in seeeing I could practice the dharma, love and giving and it wasn't spoiled by myself, my life, my drinking. I don't understand fully how this helped. There were mental blocks and it worked into my life, I could see that like Trungpa I might be taken from loved ones.

Zero

Ah! I see... in that case - I drink now and again in social situations - I dont drink at home really - it doesnt affect my spritual practice any more or less than anything else - I suppose I'm more of a non-drinker than a drinker...

Great dedication on your achievement - inspirational to see it in practice.

Denkatsu

I was thinking moderation and the intention behind why your drinking to determine if its skillfull or not.

Jason

My understanding of, and approach to, the fifth precept can be found here, if you're interested. A similar discussion can be found here, as well.

Denkatsu

Ive come to some conclusions itentions are a big role in buddhism. Right wrong denpends on your intentions. Not that one particular thing maybe wrong or right.

Jeffrey

That makes sense Denkatsu. I often see that I am following some mind desire that isn't neccessarily skillful, like you say.

ClayTheScribe

For me, a little bit of alcohol, even some in food, adjusts my mood and makes me depressed. That's why I always drank to excess so I could get high. But I much rather enjoy the highs that come from living in the present moment, as corny as that sounds.

Denkatsu

I actually think of this from some noah levine videos where he is smoking but he never takes a hit off the smoke in his video. But who cares if he did for the right reasons..

Denkatsu

For me, a little bit of alcohol, even some in food, adjusts my mood and makes me depressed. That's why I always drank to excess so I could get high. But I much rather enjoy the highs that come from living in the present moment, as corny as that sounds.

Yes. I once told my drug induced alcholic family. Being drunk or high is nice but nothing beats being sober.

markkemark

I cant drink anymore because I cant stop once I start...I take the Buddha literally on this one.

Dakini

But I much rather enjoy the highs that come from living in the present moment.

Totally. :thumbsup:

Denkatsu

Doesnt take much be sober and high then make a conclusion.

Seeking_peace

I go through about a six pack every couple months. I drink because I enjoy the taste of the drink but don't drink to get drunk.

Zayl

It's not the alcohol or other intoxicants that are inherently bad. It is how people handle them. I drink occasionally though very rarely. Not because of any moral reasons, but even though I rarely drink I find I need to pack away an entire fifth of whiskey to get drunk (note: drunk, not hammered and blacking out) so it gets expensive, and that is why I don't really do it too often. I don't think it interferes with too much unless you let it. I may have three or four drinks with some friends, we carouse and share some good company, and then... that's it. Not everyone that drinks winds up as some lonely alcoholic that puts away a 30 pack of beer a day, fyi.

And as for Cannabis, I fail to see what is so bad with it from my point of view, I am not a monk after all.

Denkatsu

I go through about a six pack every couple months. I drink because I enjoy the taste of the drink but don't drink to get drunk.

Beers tasty indeed. A good sense of control is nice for me.

Denkatsu

I think in terms of attachment. When you don't have it does it cause you to be conflictive with others. Do you wanna blame others. Can you be content without it?

Denkatsu

If it caused relationship problems could you abondon it?