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so much ignorance

TalismanTalisman Veteran
edited February 2012 in Buddhism Today
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/one-towns-war-on-gay-teens-20120202

This is a story about a town in minnesota that chose to take a "neutral" stance regarding bullying in thier school system. Perhaps one day people will realize that inaction can be just as unskillful as wrong action. So sad.

Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Don't worry, after a couple of lawsuits, they'll come around.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I live in the same metro area as that district so its been in the local news often. You may be heartened to know that they very recently changed their policy.

    http://www.startribune.com/local/north/139332713.html
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    This is utterly disgraceful.
    I can't believe that in this day and age, such a negative attitude and atmosphere exists....
    Horrendous.....
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I live in the same metro area as that district so its been in the local news often. You may be heartened to know that they very recently changed their policy.

    http://www.startribune.com/local/north/139332713.html
    that must be of such comfort to those whose children are dead, now.....

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I live in the same metro area as that district so its been in the local news often. You may be heartened to know that they very recently changed their policy.

    http://www.startribune.com/local/north/139332713.html
    that must be of such comfort to those whose children are dead, now.....

    I guess I've been familiar with this problem for some time and I've already been shocked and appalled. It's certainly better news than that they decided to keep the old policy.
  • nothing can replace the lives lost, and it's a shame because even if new policies are instated, it isn't going to prevent local evangelical parents from indoctrinating their children into their warped world views.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 2012
    What does taking a neutral position on sexual orientation have to do with turning your back on bullying? Bullying is bullying, no matter who's the target. Were they neutral about other types of bullying, too? Bullying nerds, ethnic minorities, girls in general? If not, then they were actively discriminating against gays by being neutral toward their problems, but not neutral in other contexts. Could someone ( @person ?) clarify this for me, please? It's not neutrality if you ignore some bullying but not other bullying.

    A 13-year old committed suicide with her own rifle? Teens are allowed to have guns in Minnesota? Yeah, that's a good idea. Give guns to children. They may not be old enough to vote, but by gum, they get to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights!
  • There is a point where one of the students talks about how if a kid said something derogatory about race they are reprimanded, but nothing is done for intolerance regarding sexuality. They very explicitly state that it is issues regarding gender and sexual variants that nuetrality should be maintained in order to appease the fundamental christian community that influences the school board decision.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 2012
    That's outrageous! The kids could have contacted the ACLU over that. Too bad it took a death to change the policy. I guess suicide is ok to fundamentalists, it's just gayness that's an abomination. :grumble:
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    There is a point where one of the students talks about how if a kid said something derogatory about race they are reprimanded, but nothing is done for intolerance regarding sexuality. They very explicitly state that it is issues regarding gender and sexual variants that nuetrality should be maintained in order to appease the fundamental christian community that influences the school board decision.
    And this, of course, is one of the problems/issues I have with the Republican position that the best government is local government. The more local a government body is, the more it is prone to local extreme factions. In this case, a school board.

  • And this, of course, is one of the problems/issues I have with the Republican position that the best government is local government. The more local a government body is, the more it is prone to local extreme factions. In this case, a school board.
    oooooohh, hitting the nail on the head! I was just thinking along those lines myself. "Local control" of school boards is usually considered a good thing, but it may be time to re-think that.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    It should be noted that this school district is in Michele Bachmann's political district.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    And this, of course, is one of the problems/issues I have with the Republican position that the best government is local government. The more local a government body is, the more it is prone to local extreme factions. In this case, a school board.
    oooooohh, hitting the nail on the head! I was just thinking along those lines myself. "Local control" of school boards is usually considered a good thing, but it may be time to re-think that.

    As a principal, having had to deal with the school board often, I much preferred state mandates, although, our school board was quite balanced.
  • It should be noted that this school district is in Michele Bachmann's political district.
    I noticed that. Scary, no?

  • @vinlyn Oh, so it's state vs. local? Not federal? I could see how state mandates could be a problem, for example in African-American communities in Southern states.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @vinlyn Oh, so it's state vs. local? Not federal? I could see how state mandates could be a problem, for example in African-American communities in Southern states.
    The problem is that in the Constitution, it's not at all clear that there is a federal mandate. Frankly, I'd prefer federal, but I think that's pushing things further than the country is willing to go.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 2012
    Well, what is the Department of Education for, if not to set some sort of basic standards, at least? It was created for a reason. But some flexibility on the local level is a must, especially for ethnic minorities. Too much flexibility leads to silliness like having Intelligent Design as part of the curriculum. I would think that would be unconstitutional in public schools.

    But granted, it's always going to be a delicate balance between local, state and fed (if fed, at all).
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Why exactly do you think that teaching intelligent design is unconstitutional?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 2012
    It's religious, isn't it? Same reason prayer in public school is. Who is the implied Designer?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Do you think that basic information should be taught in schools about the world's great religions?
  • A US District Court in Pennsylvania declared it unconstitutional in 2005
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    yes, all of them.
    it's a legal requirement for the curriculum in the UK.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    A US District Court in Pennsylvania declared it unconstitutional in 2005
    I'm quite aware of that, and I tend to disagree with the court decision, which was based on the establishment clause of the Constitution. I think that the court overreached.

    Let me give you another example of where these decisions that seem so easy, aren't really that easy.

    A debate that rambled on for a while in my school system was over the teaching of abortion. The debate began over the issue of abortion in sex ed classes. Now we had a rather liberal sex ed curriculum, although it evolved. At one time parents had to opt their kids into sex ed. Then, after a while, the school board reversed the process, requiring parents to opt their kids out of sex ed. Teachers were rather scripted in what they could teach, and for quite a while when a forbidden topic would be asked about by a student, the teacher would (literally) read a statement that said, "I'm sorry. I'm not allowed to discuss that topic. You should go home and ask your parents about your question."

    So, abortion was a topic not to be discussed in sex ed. You can guess which type of parent wanted it that way.

    Then, the question came up from another area. In our social studies classes, once a week students were to bring in any current events newspaper or magazine article, and the teacher would select a few students to discuss their articles. Every once in a while, a student would select a story about the American abortion debate. And guess what, some of the same parents who didn't want abortion discussed in sex ed, thought it should be open to discussion in social studies current events classes.

    This is very similar to the evolution - versus - intelligent design - versus - creationism aspect. As a former science teacher, I do not think that intelligent design or creationism should be taught in a science class. But I think the topics should be taught in social studies classes. The issue is a long standing one in American history, and a vibrant topic in current events.

    And I will take this one step further. When I was at university, I was a geosciences major, and I specialized in invertebrate paleontology. Of course, all my "historical geology" and paleontology professors taught evolution. But, every one of them was a church-going Christian who -- although the term had not been yet derived -- assumed that god influenced evolution. They never taught that, but they personally believed that...and you could sometimes get them to discuss it a little when we would go out to lunch or dinner with them.



  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Do you think that basic information should be taught in schools about the world's great religions?
    So, you don't believe schools should be able to teach a comparative religion course?

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Do you think that basic information should be taught in schools about the world's great religions?
    So, you don't believe schools should be able to teach a comparative religion course?

    Slow down, you're debating yourself. :)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Do you think that basic information should be taught in schools about the world's great religions?
    So, you don't believe schools should be able to teach a comparative religion course?

    Slow down, you're debating yourself. :)
    Actually I was attempting to bump the question since I didn't feel it had been answered.

    Although internal debate can be good, too.

    :p
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    All schools should be obliged to, by Law, to teach their children the different religions of the world.
    We teach different languages, we teach differeent politics - hell, we teach children in our classes from several different cultural backgrounds - NOT teaching them is deprivation and neglect.
    I think that NOT teaching them should be classed as a viloation of their Natural Human Rights, and not teaching them, is completely UNconstitutional...
    The USA is a multi-cultural country, founded on Christianity. By all means sell that message - but not to the total prejudicial exclusion of everyone else.....
  • I just read this, I want to bring it to the top, it's important that it doesnt fall down to the bottom. Thank you, op.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'm glad, Lady Alison, because I think this has been a particularly interesting thread.
  • Bump again.

    This was nearly 14 years ago when I was in high school we had two openly gay boys ...they sat with the girls in lunch and we defended them with a lioness fierceness. Baring our teeth at the jocks. Unfortunately a few jocks took one of them out during lunch period. He slammed him so hard on the floor he blacked out..
    Our friend was in the hospital for 2days and had to remain at home with injuries for a month... there was suspension for the jocks, but an openly gay teacher organized a protest and called the Houston reporters. He organized a senior skip day into an organized March around the campus.

    The media attention brought the school under fire. The jocks were transfered to a rehabilitation alternative school, awaiting charges of assault...

    We got lucky because there was action.
  • Woah, there was action? I am glad because it has taken some real time for that.

    On the religion in school issue. I agree with teaching the basics of each religion as part of learning the social and political and cultural aspects of a country or area. However when we are putting a God assumption into a science class that is different. I could see alternative ideas in science discussed but not teaching physics taught based on the idea god created it all. Not so easy, and gets very emotional for folks, but that is my understanding of spearation of church and state.
  • I believe that the big bang theory and evolutionary theory should be taught in science classes and theological origins of the universe and life should be taught in a optional separate class. This accomplishes the the goals of both factions. Bullying and discrimination of any sort should not be tolerated.

    As far as the federal government goes, it needs to keep its nose out of state policy. The fed is there to handle interstate and international relations. The constitution and bill of rights were never intended to handle state and local policy. When you get right down to it, the FBI, and DEA are unconstitutional agencies. The fed govt has zero law enforement authority. they were able to be created only through manipulation of policy. The FBI is a division of the IRS and the DEA is a division of the food and drug admin.

    We need to take a long hard look at the constitution and start putting people in office who will support these views and quit trying to legislate morality in this country. No govt in history has ever been able to successfully legislate morality.
  • I just read this, I want to bring it to the top, it's important that it doesnt fall down to the bottom. Thank you, op.
    Thanks for bumping this @Lady_Alison. My jaw drops when I read things like this. The world has progressed so much, and yet things like this still happen on a regular basis.

    While issues with laws and policies have been highlighted above, I just want to add that it is also our social duty as Buddhists, I think, to educate and bring awareness to issues like this.
  • I just read this, I want to bring it to the top, it's important that it doesnt fall down to the bottom. Thank you, op.
    Thanks for bumping this @Lady_Alison. My jaw drops when I read things like this. The world has progressed so much, and yet things like this still happen on a regular basis.

    While issues with laws and policies have been highlighted above, I just want to add that it is also our social duty as Buddhists, I think, to educate and bring awareness to issues like this.
    Agreed

  • @vinlyn. I remember my crappy sex we class. In Texas, we didn't even talk about contraception options, let alone abortion.

    We watched a video on the miracle of life...an embryo in the stages of development...during biology, not sex ed.

    Roe vs. Wade was openly debated in sociology and debate club, but not sexed.

    On the topic of gay students ...did you are this issue while you were a teacher principal? I forget what years....? Because in the mid 90s it was not this bad.
  • Typo...did you have these issues as principal?
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    On the topic of gay students ...did you are this issue while you were a teacher principal? I forget what years....? Because in the mid 90s it was not this bad.
    Yes, a bit...actually in the mid90s. I was assistant principal at the time, and several days before the end of the school year a very nice student made an appointment with the principal and me to tell us that on the last day of school (actually a 2.5 hour day) he would announce publicly in the hallway that he was gay and then distribute pamphlets. The principal, a very nice born-again-Christian, listened quietly, and after the student left the office just about had a heart attack! :hair: I think in her heart she knew I was gay, and she said, "Vince, he can't do that." And I said, "Well, he may only be 14, but he has the right of free speech, so I'm pretty sure he can announce he is gay. But, I don't think we have to allow him to pass out literature, since we don't allow that to be done by anyone." She disagreed. I said she should call the School Board attorneys. I was right. But, thinking she was doing the right thing, she convinced the student to make his announcement the last 10 minutes of the school day, and then pass out his literature on the sidewalk across from the school. He agreed, then she dismissed school 15 minutes early. So, no announcement, and he wasn't really ready with his literature, although there were a number of adult gay activists involved in that. End of story.

    Well, not quite. Two years later (!), the Washington Post called me -- I was then principal -- and wanted to know about the incident, because they were doing a series on gay youth. I told them they should really get the story from the former principal, who was at a new school now. :D And I gave them her number.

    It got pretty hot, because after the article was published, the boy's mother raked our former principal over the coals pretty bad since she supported her son's decision.

    I was able to stay out of the fray...after all, it wasn't my decision, and the boy had moved on to high school.
  • @vinlyn you know I did that to get a story :). I just love the way you tell them.

  • Did you bump heads with the Christian principal...I saw a little bit of pleasure you derived from giving out her number...lol
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Thanks for sharing! Crazy!
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Did you bump heads with the Christian principal...I saw a little bit of pleasure you derived from giving out her number...lol
    We actually had a very good relationship. She was pretty good at not letting her religious beliefs interfere with her job. And I was always there to play devil's advocate...which she probably thought I was! So, I think I moderated her actions, when necessary. We could even gently talk about Christianity versus Buddhism.

  • @vinlyn I have realized, slowly...over my stupid short life that the more knowledge, wisdom and education you have, the more sensitive and gentle you must be towards others that can not understand you because their spiritual maturity is infantile compare to yours. And I say that with humility...
  • And bad spelling and grammar.
  • Bump
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think we can quit 'bumping' now.....
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