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During his enlightenment experience, the Buddha could see no evidence for this. What he did perceive, however, was that the 'I', self, or individual personality consisted of five 'aggregates' (khandhas), namely: material form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness. None of these, according to the Buddha, either alone or as a group, constitute what might be termed a permanent self. The Buddha is not arguing that, on a day to day level, there are not individuals with different qualities; what he is saying is that all are subject to change. In the case of material form this is easy to see. Physically, the 42 year old is not the same as the 12 year old. The way we perceive things, feeling, thoughts, even our awareness of being alive, are all subject to change. Life is a process of continual change and movement.
Not me, BF. I'm not bothered by your shorts. (Just as long as I didn't win them.)
I've been reading and contemplating the aggregates for 6 days straight! I've been wracking my brain as to how I could put it all into my own words but I'm not there yet. I can say, however, that everything in my mind has changed subtly; my understanding of myself and others and of life. I think about it when I'm watching TV and taking a shower and making lunch. I'm going back and forth from mindfulness training to thinking about what I'm made out of back to mindfulness. This has been one of my most productive weeks yet. I never contemplated anything in university this much.
This is so great. I'm still working on describing what I'm thinking in my own words and when I do I'll post it here, even if this thread is dead. I've loved thinking about this and what it means in my actual day to day life. I don't want to try to describe anything I'm thinking or feeling yet because I don't want to ruin it by jumping the gun.
I don't know if I can answer this at a deep... theological level. A question like this is almost like pouring through the Greek interpretation of the Bible to come to some deep scholarly reasoning - instead of just practicing. Do I need to know the Greek meaning of "sheol" to love my brother?
And again - this is my own opinion - so if you don't agree with it, that's cool.
I believe that at a Buddhism 101 level - realizing, from this interpretation, that there is no self - there are just these khandhas - that at a very unBuddha educated level - seems to be the sum of who we are. We take these khandhas and say, "Oh!, this is me. This is what makes me, me." Without realizing that what we consider to be "me" is the culmination of all of these khandhas at a given moment. A moment later - we could be something completely different because of mental formations and such.
How many times have you seen people that just seem to flip-flop regarding who they think they are, what they believe or what their given perspective is at any given time?
I don't know why the five aggregates are equated to Mara. Nor do I feel that I believe in Mara. Mara could be a icon or a "type-and-shadow" of conditions. By believing that belief that these khandhas make up "who we are" - Buddha could have placed the importance of associating them with something evil so that it would place extra emphasis on why we should remove these things from our lives.
Why is the self not associated with Mara? Still don't know. Don't know that it matters in my day-to-day practice. To be honest - I can't even say that both of the statements made above are actually accurate - because of my ignorance. So... unfortunately, I can't give a deep, Pali, Sanskrit-ridden response
In my understanding, Mara is not some separate being (and after all, there are NO separate beings). Mara is simply the personification of our basic delusion of self and other. The five skandhas (or khandhas if you prefer Pali) arise from this root delusion, so naturally they would be associated with Mara, who is the symbol of this delusion. Does that make sense?
Palzang
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It appears that the bulk of the posts are off-topic. In an attempt to resuscitate this topic permit me to ask these two questions:
1. Why are the five aggregates equated with Mara, who is the equivalent of the Buddhist devil?
2. Why is the self or attâ not equated with the Buddhist devil?
Love ya all,
Bobby
By all means start your own thread in Buddhism 202 Bobby, if you feel you'd like to take the topic deeper. Those who presently feel they'd love to come deeper with you, will no doubt follow. Those who'd rather not, won't.
Love you too.
Fede
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited April 2006
* I have moved Bobby lanier's and Vacchagotta's posts to forum 202. Their thread is simply titled - "5 aggregates". *
Comments
http://buddhism.about.com/cs/meditation/a/Aggregates.htm (or see below)
Alas
Realizing:
Material Form
Feeling
Perception
Mental Formations and
Consciousness
Are things that affect me every single day in my life.
My responses. My views. My peace. My suffering.
Some people might be a little standoffish because of the underwear comment.
-bf
I've been reading and contemplating the aggregates for 6 days straight! I've been wracking my brain as to how I could put it all into my own words but I'm not there yet. I can say, however, that everything in my mind has changed subtly; my understanding of myself and others and of life. I think about it when I'm watching TV and taking a shower and making lunch. I'm going back and forth from mindfulness training to thinking about what I'm made out of back to mindfulness. This has been one of my most productive weeks yet. I never contemplated anything in university this much.
This is so great. I'm still working on describing what I'm thinking in my own words and when I do I'll post it here, even if this thread is dead. I've loved thinking about this and what it means in my actual day to day life. I don't want to try to describe anything I'm thinking or feeling yet because I don't want to ruin it by jumping the gun.
Thanks again, BF. This is so great!
Brigid
1. Why are the five aggregates equated with Mara, who is the equivalent of the Buddhist devil?
2. Why is the self or attâ not equated with the Buddhist devil?
Love ya all,
Bobby
And again - this is my own opinion - so if you don't agree with it, that's cool.
I believe that at a Buddhism 101 level - realizing, from this interpretation, that there is no self - there are just these khandhas - that at a very unBuddha educated level - seems to be the sum of who we are. We take these khandhas and say, "Oh!, this is me. This is what makes me, me." Without realizing that what we consider to be "me" is the culmination of all of these khandhas at a given moment. A moment later - we could be something completely different because of mental formations and such.
How many times have you seen people that just seem to flip-flop regarding who they think they are, what they believe or what their given perspective is at any given time?
I don't know why the five aggregates are equated to Mara. Nor do I feel that I believe in Mara. Mara could be a icon or a "type-and-shadow" of conditions. By believing that belief that these khandhas make up "who we are" - Buddha could have placed the importance of associating them with something evil so that it would place extra emphasis on why we should remove these things from our lives.
Why is the self not associated with Mara? Still don't know. Don't know that it matters in my day-to-day practice. To be honest - I can't even say that both of the statements made above are actually accurate - because of my ignorance. So... unfortunately, I can't give a deep, Pali, Sanskrit-ridden response
-bf
Palzang
By all means start your own thread in Buddhism 202 Bobby, if you feel you'd like to take the topic deeper. Those who presently feel they'd love to come deeper with you, will no doubt follow. Those who'd rather not, won't.
Love you too.
Fede
That would be here:
http://www.newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1430&page=7
in case anyone was interested.
in friendliness,
V.
http://www.newbuddhist.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1450
I am indeed interested V and will have a good read through some of those links you posted in the new thread.
V.