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What is your opinion of the "New Atheist" movement?
I'm not saying in general they are. I'm only talking about my personal experiences. I have had more far unpleasant conversations about atheism than I have about, for example, Christian evangelism.
Was that because atheists tend to poke at places about your religion that you don't feel comfortable with?
But you see, that's what I mean. Why should one person poke at another person's religion.
I'm not saying in general they are. I'm only talking about my personal experiences. I have had more far unpleasant conversations about atheism than I have about, for example, Christian evangelism.
Was that because atheists tend to poke at places about your religion that you don't feel comfortable with?
But you see, that's what I mean. Why should one person poke at another person's religion.
It depends on the situation. If someone is actively speaking out against giving equal rights to all human beings in the name of their religion, such fascism should be opposed at all instances. That is typically the case - trying to push for a distinct separation of church and state and humane treatment of all people. If that isn't the case, its trying to silent hateful speech, such as fundamentalist street-preaching, which again, should be opposed at all instances.
From what I'm aware of, most "new atheists" (although I'm not a fan of this term) don't mind religion and believe people can follow whatever they want, but it should be kept to themselves and not made public.
Publicly announcing your religiosity, at least in Christianity, is seen as hypocritical and obnoxious.
In regards to government, putting religion in the public square also takes away fundamental rights to certain citizens.
It depends on the situation. If someone is actively speaking out against giving equal rights to all human beings in the name of their religion, such fascism should be opposed at all instances.
I'm not talking about extremes like that at all. Jeez.
I was going to read all of this thread and then write a thought-filled post, but that'd be pointless because everyone here is adamantly anti-atheism, so...
Did you actually read any of the replies? Oh, that's right- no, you didn't.
I believe I made my position clear- I am not remotely anti-atheism, any more than I am pro-religion. I take a neutral stance on both. I went to hear a famous atheist speak the other week because what he has to say is interesting. What I object to is anyone telling anyone else they're wrong or stupid for what they do or don't believe. I'm seeing it in this thread.
And you can satisfy yourself all you want by telling yourself the only people who object are those who have a vested interest and you "got too close to the truth" about their religions. That's actually not the case, which would be clear if you read the thread properly.
You undermine your own argument when you stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalaaaa" which of course you accuse anyone religious of doing.
Which is true. You don't see that many atheists going around trying to ban religion. The only thing that Atheists want to ban is religion in government.
So, saying gays shouldn't be allowed to marry is an extreme? I mean, I think its crazy, but I wouldn't consider it an "extreme" position.
Bekenze, you're doing something that I consider very offensive. You are trying to force your experiences on me, and negate what I have simply expressed as what I have experienced.
No place in these last several posts have I talked about any extreme position. I am talking about the kind of situation where, for example, you go to a party and someone says to you, "Here, meet Ralph. You guys really need to talk about religion!" And then Ralph proceeds to TELL you why all religion is crap, and while he's doing so, he's poking you in the chest.
See, Bekenze, I'm not talking about being gay or any other position. I'm talking about an attitude and a way of telling you something, which actually stifles a real conversation/debate.
The view that superstition is... well, superstition... is offensive? That doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe I don't understand what you mean. Because someone feels that certain beliefs with unsubstantiated claims are untrue and openly tells one this (typically after one expressed their belief in this claim, or tries to convert others to it), that is offensive? I don't get it. Sorry.
Is it the way it is said?
When I discuss religion, I try to keep it as civil as possible, I honestly do, but many people will just put their fingers in their ears and go, "naaa-naa-naaa," like I have been accused of.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The view that superstition is... well, superstition... is offensive? That doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe I don't understand what you mean. Because someone feels that certain beliefs with unsubstantiated claims are untrue and openly tells you this, that is offensive? I don't get it. Sorry.
Yes it is offensive. Like a Christian saying you'll go to hell for not believing in God. Right or wrong is irrelevent in regards to the attitude of presentation.
Right speech in Buddhism when pointing out a perceived error in view talks about the importance of time and place and the words effectiveness are the most important. If you just belittle someone and tell them they and their beliefs are stupid, with this method it is far more likely that the person will just entrench further behind their views than actually consider an alternate point of view.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@shanyin posted this on another thread but I thought much of it applies here as well.
The view that superstition is... well, superstition... is offensive? That doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe I don't understand what you mean. Because someone feels that certain beliefs with unsubstantiated claims are untrue and openly tells one this (typically after one expressed their belief in this claim, or tries to convert others to it), that is offensive? I don't get it. Sorry.
Is it the way it is said?
When I discuss religion, I try to keep it as civil as possible, I honestly do, but many people will just put their fingers in their ears and go, "naaa-naa-naaa," like I have been accused of.
You see, you're not even reading what I am writing. You are trying to tell me what I have experienced.
So let me say it again.
I'm not expressing what you've experienced. Whatever you've experienced is legitimate to you.
I'm talking about what I've experienced. For example, an atheist getting up in my face and poking me in the chest as he's telling me that my beliefs are stupid.
Is it the position that is offensive, or the way that people go about it?
For me, very much the latter. I have absolutely no problem with atheism. I have no problem with you secretly thinking that religions are stupid, or even openly disagreeing with anyone who gets in your face and tells you *your* beliefs are wrong. I do have a problem with people being rude and disrespectful to each other. You've even done it in this forum.
You're basically saying "I'm right, you're wrong, and if I don't like what you say, well, I'm going to ignore it or belittle you."
Is it the position that is offensive, or the way that people go about it?
For me, very much the latter. I have absolutely no problem with atheism. I have no problem with you secretly thinking that religions are stupid, or even openly disagreeing with anyone who gets in your face and tells you *your* beliefs are wrong. I do have a problem with people being rude and disrespectful to each other. You've even done it in this forum.
You're basically saying "I'm right, you're wrong, and if I don't like what you say, well, I'm going to ignore it or belittle you."
I find it funny. That is wrong for a Buddhist to criticize the beliefs of another person who you think is wrong. Any criticism of religion is harming another person. I believe that is bullshit.
My wife is a Christian. We don't normally talk about it. Yet she tells me what is being spoken at her church. I think it's crazy they are made to think like this:
Is it wrong to criticize how illogical and crazy that sounds? Hell my life literally believes the world is only 6,000 years old and Dinosaurs and humans lived together. I go WTF. I've been studying Paleontology since I was 10 years old. That is crazy because we have evidence the proves Christianity was wrong in that part.
Oh look! As Buddhists, I guess we can't really criticize this:
or this:
or even how crazy this story was:
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Do you question your wife's beliefs or do you criticize her and call her stupid for believing them?
In my mind inquiry, questioning and civil debate is healthy. Belittlement, criticism, the twisting of words and ideas in order to make a hyperbolic point aren't.
I find it funny. That is wrong for a Buddhist to criticize the beliefs of another person who you think is wrong. Any criticism of religion is harming another person. I believe that is bullshit.
Christians think you are wrong, so why isn't it ok for them to criticize you? Because you're right?
Christians think you are wrong, so why isn't it ok for them to criticize you? Because you're right?
They can. They just can't try to take my, or anybody else's, rights away, and shouldn't say people deserve eternal bodily torment. I certainly don't think they do.
Do you question your wife's beliefs or do you criticize her and call her stupid for believing them?
I do criticize her about how she thinks I am going to hell because I deny Jesus. She does that to me because she is scared. All those years of programming by the church is hard to get rid of.
In my mind inquiry, questioning and civil debate is healthy. Belittlement, criticism, the twisting of words and ideas in order to make a hyperbolic point aren't.
How we are twisting their words?
Christians think you are wrong, so why isn't it ok for them to criticize you? Because you're right?
They criticize me all they want. I am known as the Richard Dawkins of the county where I live. I take their criticism, find anything wrong with their criticism and give back how wrong they are in their criticism.
I get this on a daily basis.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Christians think you are wrong, so why isn't it ok for them to criticize you? Because you're right?
They can. They just can't try to take my, or anybody else's, rights away, and shouldn't say people deserve eternal bodily torment. I certainly don't think they do.
I agree, I think its bad when they get in your face about their beliefs. DOMA, intelligent design in science class, religious displays on public property, legislating morality, all that stuff is wrong. I wholeheartedly support the effort of people to try to block these things and promote a secular society.
Its the belittling and conviction of absolute correctness in the views of hardcore athiests that I object to and I think what others have mainly objected to.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited February 2012
How we are twisting their words?
This sounds like a blatant twisting of words for hyperbolic purposes.
If there is a thread on rebirth, and I say: "I don't think rebirth occurs. There is no hard evidence for it, and I think it is cultural superstition. It may occur, but why believe in it when it is an imponderable?"
Is that offensive? That seems pretty okay to me. That's typically to the extent I will go, unless the other person becomes hostile.
I can understand how stuff like, "Your God is the worst, most deplorable character in all of fiction and you should feel bad for worshiping and giving you life to this being," is a bit rude, but I wouldn't really say stuff like that.
Its the belittling and conviction of absolute correctness in the views of hardcore athiests that I object to and I think what others have mainly objected to.
Thats usual practice on both sides believers and non-believers. You often read statements like "yeah its like that and that..." " xyz exists" "science just hasnt come up with an explanation", "you dont need to believe me right now, you dont have the experience i have, but you will see in the future" (my favorite). Things are stated as facts and the opinion of the other person is belittled.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
If there is a thread on rebirth, and I say: "I don't think rebirth occurs. There is no hard evidence for it, and I think it is cultural superstition. It may occur, but why believe in it when it is an imponderable?"
Is that offensive? That seems pretty okay to me. That's typically to the extent I will go, unless the other person becomes hostile.
I can understand how stuff like, "Your God is the worst, most deplorable character in all of fiction and you should feel bad for worshiping and giving you life to this being," is a bit rude, but I wouldn't really say stuff like that.
Yeah, I agree. This is how I feel it should be approached.
This sounds like a blatant twisting of words for hyperbolic purposes.
Yes, exactly.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Its the belittling and conviction of absolute correctness in the views of hardcore athiests that I object to and I think what others have mainly objected to.
Thats usual practice on both sides believers and non-believers. You often read statements like "yeah its like that and that..." " xyz exists" "science just hasnt come up with an explanation", "you dont need to believe me right now, you dont have the experience i have, but you will see in the future" (my favorite). Things are stated as facts and the opinion of the other person is belittled.
I'm sure it occurs on both sides. There are plenty of examples of people who can disagree while still allowing others to hold an opposing view.
The belief that some Indian warrior-prince, born from a woman's side, ran away from home and starved himself until he some rice and became enlightened and grew superpowers under a tree.
This sounds like a blatant twisting of words for hyperbolic purposes.
No that is actually what they believe.
They believe Sin came from when Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge because a talking snake tempted Eve. Because Adam and Eve disobeyed God the cure of original sin was put on man. Because we are so horrible human beings because of this original sin. God had a human son who was also god as well. To sacrifice himself as a form of ransom or scapegoat for human sin. The only way for people to be saved from sin and to be with the side of god. You must believe in Jesus Christ as your master.
This is why some Christians don't accept evolution or Earth being older than 6,000 years old. Because believing the Earth is more than 6,000 years old is basically denying Genesis. If there was no Genesis. There was no Adam and Eve and the fall of man creating original sin. Without original sin the base of Christianity falls apart to some.
Sometimes Atheist use mockery as a tool to get the theists attention. Why? A lot of theists don't want to think and just believe. That is why people think atheists are so bad and evil. We press buttons for which people don't like. Now because 9/11 happen and the internet has happen. The atheists are being more open now.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.
So my point is that the above picture isn't what they actually believe. Its a distortion used to make a point. My view is that its disrespectful and hurtful. Points can be made without being an ass.
The belief that some Indian warrior-prince, born from a woman's side, ran away from home and starved himself until he some rice and became enlightened and grew superpowers under a tree.
Either way, from my perspective, it's offensive.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Hyperboles are fun. I decided to make one.
Buddhism:
The belief that some Indian warrior-prince, born from a woman's side, ran away from home and starved himself until he some rice and became enlightened and grew superpowers under a tree.
I can laugh at this because the intent behind it comes across as kind and a friendly sort of jab not as an attack.
I don't care what people believe or don't believe. To me, it's personal. Faith, no faith, mixed faith, whatever rocks your socks.
What I don't like, across the board, is having it shoved in my face, or having my own beliefs questioned/evaluated/mocked by other people. I give you the space to do as you choose, and I expect the same back. No problem.
@B5C - why marry someone to tear her down? It doesn't sound very compassionate, or kind, or respectful. Also, the idea that people should validate their beliefs to you is repugnant. You are not the boss of other people, and what they believe in (or not) is their own business. People like you give athiests a bad name.
This sounds like a blatant twisting of words for hyperbolic purposes.
No that is actually what they believe.
They believe Sin came from when Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge because a talking snake tempted Eve. Because Adam and Eve disobeyed God the cure of original sin was put on man. Because we are so horrible human beings because of this original sin. God had a human son who was also god as well. To sacrifice himself as a form of ransom or scapegoat for human sin. The only way for people to be saved from sin and to be with the side of god. You must believe in Jesus Christ as your master.
This is why some Christians don't accept evolution or Earth being older than 6,000 years old. Because believing the Earth is more than 6,000 years old is basically denying Genesis. If there was no Genesis. There was no Adam and Eve and the fall of man creating original sin. Without original sin the base of Christianity falls apart to some.
Sometimes Atheist use mockery as a tool to get the theists attention. Why? A lot of theists don't want to think and just believe. That is why people think atheists are so bad and evil. We press buttons for which people don't like. Now because 9/11 happen and the internet has happen. The atheists are being more open now.
I find everything about this post offensive. Who the heck are you to set most of the world straight? Why isn't it enough to say to another human being (which I would say is right speech), "You know, I don't share you view and beliefs. I have a different way of looking at life. But each person has a right to their own views and opinions."
If a discussion evolves, fine. It doesn't have to end with agreement, but it also doesn't need to get to the point where you belittle the other person's deep beliefs.
So my point is that the above picture isn't what they actually believe. Its a distortion used to make a point. My view is that its disrespectful and hurtful. Points can be made without being an ass.
The problem is that people believe any criticism or any good criticism is a sign of trashing religion and being an ass.
Example: My wife came home from Church and asked her what she listened today. She said a speaker came in saying he was an atheist and there was evidence of god. Then she showed me this as proof of god.
I was like: "Um honey, that is a photo of dust and stars orbiting a super massive back-hole. The X is the where dust is absorbed into the bla...." Wife: "Stop trying to disprove my religion!! Your being an ass!"
My significant other was once a Christian, and from her being with me, is no longer a Christian. She has never been happier (or so she says).
Heck it's a slow process. She once was an hard core right wing Christian. Now she consider herself as a liberal Christian and accepts gay marriage. I guess it's a sign that she is slowly getting better.
@B5C - why marry someone to tear her down? It doesn't sound very compassionate, or kind, or respectful. Also, the idea that people should validate their beliefs to you is repugnant. You are not the boss of other people, and what they believe in (or not) is their own business. People like you give athiests a bad name.
People like me give atheist a bad name?
Have you been to r/atheism or been to a Humanist group or been to a secular student alliance group?
Also I love my wife so much. I had to lie to her pastor, so she can get marred to the church she wanted to go. Since the church we got married does not marry people who are not Christian. Marriage to non-Christians is viewed horrible.
I had to sit through one year of Christian marriage consoling.
Yeah, I sacrificed a lot for my love. Even though she may not like what I believe, but she still loves me and I love her.
Oh, and I would like to point out that my significant other still goes to church, even though she is as "atheistic" as me. I occasionally go with.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
So my point is that the above picture isn't what they actually believe. Its a distortion used to make a point. My view is that its disrespectful and hurtful. Points can be made without being an ass.
The problem is that people believe any criticism or any good criticism is a sign of trashing religion and being an ass.
Example: My wife came home from Church and asked her what she listened today. She said a speaker came in saying he was an atheist and there was evidence of god. Then she showed me this as proof of god.
I was like: "Um honey, that is a photo of dust and stars orbiting a super massive back-hole. The X is the where dust is absorbed into the bla...." Wife: "Stop trying to disprove my religion!! Your being an ass!"
Yeah, I said earlier "In my mind inquiry, questioning and civil debate is healthy. Belittlement, criticism, the twisting of words and ideas in order to make a hyperbolic point aren't."
Its about proper time and place, a compassionate consideration of the others feelings and a respect for the other person's right to hold a belief contrary to yours. It sounds like you care about your wife so you're able to play nice with her. She also directly presented you with an argument and so some type of response seems to fit with a proper time and place.
"She is slowly getting better." You make her faith sound like an illness.
Rather than offering an open line of discussion, respect, and listening, you come off as someone with a massive chip on his shoulder and something to prove. I have compassion for you, but I wouldn't want to be stuck at a cocktail party with you.
This thread is going nowhere, so I'm out of here. Discussion is great, but this is starting to get silly.
Comments
From what I'm aware of, most "new atheists" (although I'm not a fan of this term) don't mind religion and believe people can follow whatever they want, but it should be kept to themselves and not made public.
Publicly announcing your religiosity, at least in Christianity, is seen as hypocritical and obnoxious.
In regards to government, putting religion in the public square also takes away fundamental rights to certain citizens.
I believe I made my position clear- I am not remotely anti-atheism, any more than I am pro-religion. I take a neutral stance on both. I went to hear a famous atheist speak the other week because what he has to say is interesting. What I object to is anyone telling anyone else they're wrong or stupid for what they do or don't believe. I'm seeing it in this thread.
And you can satisfy yourself all you want by telling yourself the only people who object are those who have a vested interest and you "got too close to the truth" about their religions. That's actually not the case, which would be clear if you read the thread properly.
You undermine your own argument when you stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalaaaa" which of course you accuse anyone religious of doing.
Ooo, somebody is a bit touchy. I was just joking around. God.
But just to make it clear, that last post of yours that you wrote...
No place in these last several posts have I talked about any extreme position. I am talking about the kind of situation where, for example, you go to a party and someone says to you, "Here, meet Ralph. You guys really need to talk about religion!" And then Ralph proceeds to TELL you why all religion is crap, and while he's doing so, he's poking you in the chest.
See, Bekenze, I'm not talking about being gay or any other position. I'm talking about an attitude and a way of telling you something, which actually stifles a real conversation/debate.
Is it the way it is said?
When I discuss religion, I try to keep it as civil as possible, I honestly do, but many people will just put their fingers in their ears and go, "naaa-naa-naaa," like I have been accused of.
Right speech in Buddhism when pointing out a perceived error in view talks about the importance of time and place and the words effectiveness are the most important. If you just belittle someone and tell them they and their beliefs are stupid, with this method it is far more likely that the person will just entrench further behind their views than actually consider an alternate point of view.
So let me say it again.
I'm not expressing what you've experienced. Whatever you've experienced is legitimate to you.
I'm talking about what I've experienced. For example, an atheist getting up in my face and poking me in the chest as he's telling me that my beliefs are stupid.
You're basically saying "I'm right, you're wrong, and if I don't like what you say, well, I'm going to ignore it or belittle you."
It's juvenile and, well, not very Buddhist...
I have? Are you sure you aren't confusing me for someone else?
I just looked through things I posted. I don't recall me belittling anyone or being rude to them.
Pretty sure to have the wrong guy.
I'm a nice, friendly individual.
My wife is a Christian. We don't normally talk about it. Yet she tells me what is being spoken at her church. I think it's crazy they are made to think like this:
Is it wrong to criticize how illogical and crazy that sounds? Hell my life literally believes the world is only 6,000 years old and Dinosaurs and humans lived together. I go WTF. I've been studying Paleontology since I was 10 years old. That is crazy because we have evidence the proves Christianity was wrong in that part.
Oh look! As Buddhists, I guess we can't really criticize this:
or this:
or even how crazy this story was:
In my mind inquiry, questioning and civil debate is healthy. Belittlement, criticism, the twisting of words and ideas in order to make a hyperbolic point aren't. Christians think you are wrong, so why isn't it ok for them to criticize you? Because you're right?
I get this on a daily basis.
Its the belittling and conviction of absolute correctness in the views of hardcore athiests that I object to and I think what others have mainly objected to.
This sounds like a blatant twisting of words for hyperbolic purposes.
Is that offensive? That seems pretty okay to me. That's typically to the extent I will go, unless the other person becomes hostile.
I can understand how stuff like, "Your God is the worst, most deplorable character in all of fiction and you should feel bad for worshiping and giving you life to this being," is a bit rude, but I wouldn't really say stuff like that.
Buddhism:
The belief that some Indian warrior-prince, born from a woman's side, ran away from home and starved himself until he some rice and became enlightened and grew superpowers under a tree.
They believe Sin came from when Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge because a talking snake tempted Eve. Because Adam and Eve disobeyed God the cure of original sin was put on man. Because we are so horrible human beings because of this original sin. God had a human son who was also god as well. To sacrifice himself as a form of ransom or scapegoat for human sin. The only way for people to be saved from sin and to be with the side of god. You must believe in Jesus Christ as your master.
This is why some Christians don't accept evolution or Earth being older than 6,000 years old. Because believing the Earth is more than 6,000 years old is basically denying Genesis. If there was no Genesis. There was no Adam and Eve and the fall of man creating original sin. Without original sin the base of Christianity falls apart to some.
Sometimes Atheist use mockery as a tool to get the theists attention. Why? A lot of theists don't want to think and just believe. That is why people think atheists are so bad and evil. We press buttons for which people don't like. Now because 9/11 happen and the internet has happen. The atheists are being more open now.
So my point is that the above picture isn't what they actually believe. Its a distortion used to make a point. My view is that its disrespectful and hurtful. Points can be made without being an ass.
What I don't like, across the board, is having it shoved in my face, or having my own beliefs questioned/evaluated/mocked by other people. I give you the space to do as you choose, and I expect the same back. No problem.
@B5C - why marry someone to tear her down? It doesn't sound very compassionate, or kind, or respectful. Also, the idea that people should validate their beliefs to you is repugnant. You are not the boss of other people, and what they believe in (or not) is their own business. People like you give athiests a bad name.
If a discussion evolves, fine. It doesn't have to end with agreement, but it also doesn't need to get to the point where you belittle the other person's deep beliefs.
My significant other was once a Christian, and from her being with me, is no longer a Christian. She has never been happier (or so she says).
Example: My wife came home from Church and asked her what she listened today. She said a speaker came in saying he was an atheist and there was evidence of god. Then she showed me this as proof of god.
I was like: "Um honey, that is a photo of dust and stars orbiting a super massive back-hole. The X is the where dust is absorbed into the bla...." Wife: "Stop trying to disprove my religion!! Your being an ass!"
Have you been to r/atheism or been to a Humanist group or been to a secular student alliance group?
Also I love my wife so much. I had to lie to her pastor, so she can get marred to the church she wanted to go. Since the church we got married does not marry people who are not Christian. Marriage to non-Christians is viewed horrible.
I had to sit through one year of Christian marriage consoling.
Yeah, I sacrificed a lot for my love. Even though she may not like what I believe, but she still loves me and I love her.
Its about proper time and place, a compassionate consideration of the others feelings and a respect for the other person's right to hold a belief contrary to yours. It sounds like you care about your wife so you're able to play nice with her. She also directly presented you with an argument and so some type of response seems to fit with a proper time and place.
Rather than offering an open line of discussion, respect, and listening, you come off as someone with a massive chip on his shoulder and something to prove. I have compassion for you, but I wouldn't want to be stuck at a cocktail party with you.
This thread is going nowhere, so I'm out of here. Discussion is great, but this is starting to get silly.
At least, the scriptures say you shouldn't.