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okay my not so nice thing that bugs me

AMHAMH
edited February 2012 in General Banter
I am cringing, but here it is honestly.

Poor language.

Not 2nd language learners or anything like that, I have worked with so many people of different language backgrounds.

Just the small poor language choices. I was interviewing people today and I had to work at it big time. There was one lady and I am trying to recall the word errors, it was just difficult. Hmm, like "I am empathy with all the kids" or "I have communication with all peoples" Even the other interviewer was doing the little things like you do with kids, repeating back what they said but more correct (we do this to some extent with everyone to make sure we get their answers and encourage them to talk a little more, just not correcting them) I guess I think if they use proper language on TV and the radio and at schools then it is possible to listen and learn even if you didn't get it all in school. And we are in the schools, this isn't the same as working in other environments.

Okay, ...

Comments

  • raineraine
    I am sure it is related to their education. Or lack thereof. Sad really.
    I try not to care, but can't help but cringe a little when someone confuses "your" and "you're" or "their", "there", and "they're".
    Such as...
    "I heard your going to the movies".
    It distracts me to read such basic grammar mistakes.
    I shouldn't even care. Besides, I'm no English major myself.
  • Lady_AlisonLady_Alison Veteran
    Yikes! I'm getting as far away from you two. My grammar and spelling was made in Texas...you know what came out of Texas?

    : bush
  • raineraine
    Haha bush is notorious for having bad grammar
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I am cringing, but here it is honestly.

    Poor language.

    Not 2nd language learners or anything like that, I have worked with so many people of different language backgrounds.

    Just the small poor language choices. I was interviewing people today and I had to work at it big time. There was one lady and I am trying to recall the word errors, it was just difficult. Hmm, like "I am empathy with all the kids" or "I have communication with all peoples" Even the other interviewer was doing the little things like you do with kids, repeating back what they said but more correct (we do this to some extent with everyone to make sure we get their answers and encourage them to talk a little more, just not correcting them) I guess I think if they use proper language on TV and the radio and at schools then it is possible to listen and learn even if you didn't get it all in school. And we are in the schools, this isn't the same as working in other environments.

    Okay, ...
    I agree. There are 2 kinds of poor language I detest. Some comes from a lack of education. But the other is choosing to speak poorly. "Wazzup" is a good -- but minor -- example.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Yikes! I'm getting as far away from you two. My grammar and spelling was made in Texas...you know what came out of Texas?

    You can always tell a Texan. You can't tell 'em much. But you can always tell 'em.

  • Lady_AlisonLady_Alison Veteran
    I love writting and my personality craves it as a form of creative expression but it just kills me to edit.

    Stephen king once said that revision and editing after the first draft merit a term that he used often. He called it, "killing your children. "
  • Lady_AlisonLady_Alison Veteran
    @vinlyn why did that sound like a bush press conference? Lol..
  • RavenRaven
    I agree. I'm an ESL teacher, and to be honest, my students tend to have better grammar than the native speakers. We assume we can learn grammar and spelling from just living within a language, but it isn't true. There's a difference between using language and using it properly.

    People who say "irregardless" make me homicidal...
  • compassionate_warriorcompassionate_warrior Veteran
    We assume we can learn grammar and spelling from just living within a language, but it isn't true.
    Don't they teach this in your school's regular English classes?

  • Seeking_peaceSeeking_peace
    Once in a while I will deliberately use poor grammar but for the most part I agree with you. Grammar is to me, a direct reflection of intelligence.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    To get annoyed at someones education or ability to communicate is something that will stem from the ego. I am sure as it is your job and you must encounter it daily it can become annoying. However, if you look deeper into why and how these people are this way, what kind of life they lead, maybe you can find some compassion. I am sure finding compassoion here will help a great dealHow can you judge a person on something they have never been taugth?
  • RavenRaven
    We assume we can learn grammar and spelling from just living within a language, but it isn't true.
    Don't they teach this in your school's regular English classes?

    Actually no, not really. When I was in public and highschool, "English" class consisted mainly of reading, and now and then a little spelling. No phonics, no grammar, nothing one would usually consider to be standard in English. Fortunately I had parents who made sure I learned outside of the classroom, but I had many peers who weren't as lucky. It was an attempt at a less-rigid way of teaching, and it was a pretty big failure.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    Its a common theme - every generation looks at the next and sighs! guess that's how language evolves over generations... now with spellcheck / electronic media, there is little need to know what you're doing...
  • ZenBadgerZenBadger Derbyshire, UK Veteran
    edited February 2012
    Why get annoyed by something that has always changed? I don't speak Anglo-Saxon (although I know a few bits) and Anglo-Saxons did not speak modern English yet there has never been a conscious language channge here since the mid sixth century. Since the advent of printing there has been a tendency to ossify the language but people communicate in ways that defy ossification. We have a similar situation to the late Roman Republic where the language is stratifying into "sermo latinus" for the educated and "sermo vulgaris" for the masses.

    As long as someone understands what we say does it really matter?
  • AMHAMH
    I know it has changed, I don't expect younger teachers to write cursive or use sir like people used to. But this is education, and in an area where the focus is on giving young people and others the chances to move out of poverty. So it may not matter in all cases but there is little chance they will be moving out of poverty into better jobs with language like is currently used.
  • AMHAMH
    Ooops, forgot about the compassion peice, yes it does inspire compassion. I don't want to say it is a judgment asmuch as a cringe. I am sure someone cringes when I try to understand mechanical things or whatever is obvious tothem.
  • QuandariusQuandarius Explorer
    It's obvious that a history of little reading of decent literature will be reflected in poor speech. Many people do not read because they feel that they don't have enough time for it, also television is too easy to switch on, so books are neglected. This has gone a long way towards destroying correct speech, and I am sure that everyone knows this. However, from my years of working in factories, I have observed that the more ignorant of one's workmates tend to impose their patois on others. This is because they tend also to be more aggressive, and form "in-groups" more easily than more reserved folk. Therefore, they rule the roost. Unless one is willing to be seen as different (in England, where I live, to be seen as a "toff" or "posh"), it makes for fewer difficulties if one conforms in order to fit in better with the crowd. So, if one is wise, aitches are not sounded, and poor grammar is used. The same will apply in schools. Children hate to be seen as "swots", because swots are bullied. Yet, a really intelligent person, young or old, will pay the price, will stand out from the crowd, and will speak correctly.

    It seems to me that most poor levels of speech stem from these two sources — and from schools first. The factory yobbos learned their "grammar" from their schoolmates, when they were younger. Poor speech is not always out of ignorance. There is also a fear of speaking correctly. Strange, but true.
  • raineraine
    I agree with ThailandTom

    @zero spellcheck is for liars :)

    What does it matter in the big scheme of things how a person uses the English language. It doesn't affect me one bit....oops, I digress....still working on ridding myself of that shiver I get each time I read "your" used when it should be "you're".
    It's a work in progress.
  • AMHAMH
    We have had many training and speakers this year, much more than in previous years. I can say the ones that avoided saying 'um' 'you know' and other repetitive phrases certainly held my attention and the information was communicated more effectively.

    I know I am just defending, one of my personal improvements in this last year was to not feel overly self conscious about the language that I use, avoiding fillers like um and using the most accurate language for who I am speaking to (adjustments for children and 2nd language learners). In my case I have spent a lifetime making everyone comfortable and understanding where they are coming from yet as a manger I have not held to higher standards and accountability.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited February 2012
    @raine you're last, too post's where a pear of good, wons: ;)
  • RavenRaven
    @person - yikes! lol

    The truth is, day-to-day personal life doesn't require perfect grammar. I use slang, shortcuts, and don't always make sure to avoid placing a preposition at the end of my sentence.

    However, when I'm working, or dealing in some other realm of life where speaking properly behooves the situation/me, I can do it. Like it or not, people judge you by how you express yourself.

    The problem is that many people, especially of my generation (I'm 29) and younger, really and truly don't know the difference. Getting all the way to college/university without knowing the difference between your and you're is sad, and a sign of the sloppy education children receive these days.

    I have a friend who is trying to get a teaching job. She's bright, funny, loves kids, and would be great in a classroom. However, her English skills (she's a native speaker, by the way) don't meet the requirements of a prospective teacher. Who wants to hire a teacher with poor spelling and grammar?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    .........still working on ridding myself of that shiver I get each time I read "your" used when it should be "you're".
    It's a work in progress.
    Will this help?
    Probably not...... :D

    http://minus.com/mB2RRh2RD#1f


  • raineraine
    @federica HA! That was awesome!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    The huge problem is...... I think everyone here will tell you that cartoon female was modelled on me....
    I am the grammar-speech policewoman of the forum.... I sometimes have to physically stop myself from either editing someone's post - or typing a new post correcting them!!
  • AMHAMH
    now I am going to be watching carefully, I am not always the best in written details.
  • raineraine
    Yikes....I am a business Major, not an English Major and so now I feel intimidated. Wait, I did spell 'intimidated" correctly, right? :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Yes, but 'rain' has no 'e' at the end.....

    Oh... wait......
  • raineraine
    Leave it to me to incorrectly spell a word that is to become my screen name on here. Every time I log on, it will be staring at me, laughing at me, mocking me even.
    Wait a minute, it's my actualy name and I DO spell it that way.
    Whew!
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    I love writting and my personality craves it as a form of creative expression but it just kills me to edit.

    Stephen king once said that revision and editing after the first draft merit a term that he used often. He called it, "killing your children. "
    I read that book as well and indeed, it does feel that way at times!

    Relevant to the OP is that last night a friend of mine (who grew up in Detroit) was playing "Words with Friends"(Scrabble) with another mutual friend via his phone. He kept attempting to use slang words and getting pissed that it wouldn't accept them until I pointed out that he had wrong spelling/made up a word/whatever. He then started ranting about how he wanted an Ebonics Scrabble and pointed out that there was a big debate in the '90s regarding Oakland, Calif. Schools. Apparently, they were rallying to teach Ebonics as a recognized language, but the move never actually came to fruition. According to him, Ebonics IS a recognized language, but we couldn't really get a definitive answer on that.
    Just to dispel stereotypes here... My friend mentioned above is white and my other friend (who is black) was vehemently opposed to this notion, lol.

    But, I do think there is something to be said for the region in which you live. Since I've been living out here, I do notice my grammar slipping. People comment on it when I go back home as well, lol. When you hear improper grammar over and over again, it starts to not sound so offensive... Just like an accent or dialect.
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited February 2012
    @federica

    image
  • RavenRaven
    That comic strip is coming with me to my work conference tomorrow! LOL thanks for sharing, Telly!! :lol:
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited February 2012
    I know it has changed, I don't expect younger teachers to write cursive or use sir like people used to. But this is education, and in an area where the focus is on giving young people and others the chances to move out of poverty. So it may not matter in all cases but there is little chance they will be moving out of poverty into better jobs with language like is currently used.
    If you feel your resolve lagging, see the film: "To Sir, With Love". It's still relevant today.
    I agree. I'm an ESL teacher, and to be honest, my students tend to have better grammar than the native speakers. We assume we can learn grammar and spelling from just living within a language, but it isn't true. There's a difference between using language and using it properly.
    I don't know who this "we" is that is assuming we somehow naturally pick up grammar from the environment. We don't. This is a pet peeve of mine. The schools are doing students a tremendous disservice by not teaching grammar and writing. Teaching English grammar is not the job of the foreign language teachers, as I was told when I was going through teacher training in highschools, it's the job of the English teachers. I was always told in school that you can't get into college without knowing how to spell and write correctly. That's not true. University professors complain endlessly about students with no grammar or writing skills, and about term papers that are verging on being incomprehensible. I've never understood this strange and dysfunctional policy on the part of the public schools.

    @AHeerdt, you need to maintain standards. If the job requires good grammar on the part of the teacher, then you have to screen for that in your hiring. It means a lot of people won't pass muster, but this is a school, for heaven's sake! HELLO! :rolleyes: sheesh!
  • mind7mind7
    They're just words
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    They're just words
    ...that can make the difference between finding employment or not.

    @Zombiegirl The Ebonics movement in CA actually did teach formal English grammar, spelling and writing. Ebonics was used as a bridge, to validate the language students used at home and in the 'hood (formerly referred to, pejoratively, as "dialect"), while teaching them the language skills they needed to get into university or get a good job. Kids would learn to "translate" from Ebonics into formal English. It worked. Many of the students in programs teaching Ebonics learned a lot more grammar than most public school kids in CA.

    (California: that Land of Oz that gave us the "see-and-say" method in place of phonics, and produced a whole generation of HS grads who couldn't read to save their lives...)

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran

    @Zombiegirl The Ebonics movement in CA actually did teach formal English grammar, spelling and writing. Ebonics was used as a bridge, to validate the language students used at home and in the 'hood (formerly referred to, pejoratively, as "dialect"), while teaching them the language skills they needed to get into university or get a good job. Kids would learn to "translate" from Ebonics into formal English. It worked. Many of the students in programs teaching Ebonics learned a lot more grammar than most public school kids in CA.
    Lol, I need to inform my friend of this. He had dreams of being an Ebonics teacher for the wrong reasons, it would seem.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I'm not up to date on Ebonics in CA, maybe it's not taught anymore. But it sounds like he had a misconception about how it worked.
  • Lady_AlisonLady_Alison Veteran
    I think federica is the one on the right. I love the story about your father, though. Hahaha.
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