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Does suffering on earth give or take bad karma?

Does suffering on earth give or take bad karma? Thanks.

Comments

  • When I say suffering, I mean pain and similar things. Not evil suffering like anger.

    Peace!
  • Suffering is seen as a result, so I'm not sure I understand your question.

    Spiny
  • edited February 2012
    For instance, If someone is suffering in a hell, then bad karma is taken from them. But what if someone suffers on earth instead of hell? Is there bad karma removed or is bad karma gained? Or both? If both, then is more more than the other? Thanks.

    Peace!
  • You're treating karma as some sort of cosmic account balance of good and bad deeds. To be fair, that is how many Buddhists treat karma. You have good karma, and bad karma, and you need to do good deeds to balance out all the bad stuff you did over several lifetimes. Get enough bad karma and you're punished until it's used up. That's all right as a motivation to do good, but not at all what Buddha meant by karma.

    Seeing karma as a punishment and reward system works only if you don't ask questions like you are doing. In your example, karma would be the result of what you choose to do about the suffering. Karma works by cause and effect. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice and brings consequences. As long as you have free will and the ability to make choices, you generate karma.

    So, the suffering doesn't give or take bad karma. Your reactions to the suffering cause the good or bad karma.
  • So, the suffering doesn't give or take bad karma. Your reactions to the suffering cause the good or bad karma.
    Yes, that's a good way of putting it.

    Spiny
  • When I say suffering, I mean pain and similar things. Not evil suffering like anger.
    Tibetans believe that suffering burns off negative karma, and therefore is to be appreciated, a cause for celebration. Viewing suffering in that way helps minimize the suffering itself. Interesting logic. It has a practical sense about it.

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    I once heard suffering defined as "the resistance to pain."
  • Tibetans believe that suffering burns off negative karma, and therefore is to be appreciated, a cause for celebration. Viewing suffering in that way helps minimize the suffering itself. Interesting logic. It has a practical sense about it.

    That's an interesting way of looking at it.

    Spiny

  • Tibetans believe that suffering burns off negative karma, and therefore is to be appreciated, a cause for celebration. Viewing suffering in that way helps minimize the suffering itself. Interesting logic. It has a practical sense about it.

    That's an interesting way of looking at it.

    Spiny

    Considering Tibet for most of its history was a feudal system where 99% of the people lived lives filled with suffering while the 1% lived in luxury, convincing people to celebrate their suffering instead of blaming their overlords was probably a practical teaching in the minds of the establishment.

    The Catholic church also tried the "suffering is good for you" approach during the long dark ages.

    The teaching is clear. Suffering is neither good nor bad. Suffering exists. That's the first Noble Truth. It's what you do about the suffering that matters.

  • Considering Tibet for most of its history was a feudal system where 99% of the people lived lives filled with suffering while the 1% lived in luxury, convincing people to celebrate their suffering instead of blaming their overlords was probably a practical teaching in the minds of the establishment.
    You could say this about a lot of points in Buddhism. The concept of karma, for example. I came across a comment by a historian some time ago, who said that the Buddhist hierarchy in Thailand made a deal with the King, to keep the population docile in exchange for the King's support. You could say that about all religion.


  • Considering Tibet for most of its history was a feudal system where 99% of the people lived lives filled with suffering while the 1% lived in luxury, convincing people to celebrate their suffering instead of blaming their overlords was probably a practical teaching in the minds of the establishment.
    You could say this about a lot of points in Buddhism. The concept of karma, for example. I came across a comment by a historian some time ago, who said that the Buddhist hierarchy in Thailand made a deal with the King, to keep the population docile in exchange for the King's support. You could say that about all religion.

    True. From the very first records of the very first city of Ur in Mesopotamia, we have an eternal dance of power between the religious authorities and secular authorities where sometimes they were in conflict and sometimes collusion, but rarely ignored each other. In the West, we're used to the concept of separation of church and state, but for most of history and most of the world, that separation didn't exist then and doesn't exist now. If a segment of American citizens have their way, it wouldn't exist here, either.
  • @AstralProjectee do you feel as if your questions have been answered and you understand karma a little morenow or no?
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited February 2012
    Karma is habit-momentum of body and mind, body-mind tendency of action. The results of that action is the fruit of karma. There is not a mysterious force, or as Cinorjer said, a cosmic account balance. If there is the karma of devouring finite resources, there is the fruit of their collapse.

    We are not helpless karma puppets, we can be aware of body and mind. Sustained mindful awareness transmutes habit energy of body and mind. like sunshine. It doesn't happen in a flash but slowly. Someone described this turning of habit energy through mindfulness as "turning a ship", because of the careful wide circle required for its mass. When our habits of body and mind are transmuted, we don't likely act out in a way that brings the blow-back of blind consumption. We still have the damage already done though. After practising for some time my behaviour is far more skillful than it used to be, but old habits die hard, and as they say " Defilements are endless, I vow to eliminate them all"

    This is how karma was taught to me. ... at any rate.
  • I can copy and paste something I typed from a book by the Dalai Lama about Karma, The Book Of Awakening. That helped me to understand karma a lot better.


    A few things on karma, it should be situated in the context of the wider buddhist understanding of the natural laws of causality. Karma is one particular instance of the natural casual laws that operate throughout the universe where in buddhism things and events come into being purely as a result of the combination of causes and conditions.

    However, what makes karma unique is that it involves intentional action, an agent. The natural casual processes operating in the world cannot be termed karmic if there is no agent involved. So in order for a casual process to be karmic, it must involve an individual whose intention would lead to a particular action.

    Actions which produce suffering and pain are generally considered negative or non-virtuous actions. Actions that lead to positive and desirable consequences, such as experiences of joy and happiness, are considered to be positive or virtuous actions. There is a third category of actions which leads to expereiences of equanimity, or neutral feelings and experiences, these are neither virtuous or non-virtuous.

    In terms of the actual nature of karmic actions themselves, there are two principal types: mental acts-actions that are not neccessarily manifested through physical action - and physical acts, which include both bodily and verbal acts. From the point of view of the medium of expression of an action, you can distinguish actions of the mind, of speech, and of the body. To add, in the scriptures you can find discussions about karmic actions which are completeley virtuous, completeley non-virtuous, and those which are a mixture of the two. Probably most of the actions that we undertake and probably a mixture of the two.

    If you break down a single karmic action, you can can see that there are several stages within the event. There is a beginning, which is the stage of the motivation or intention; there is actual execution of the act; and then there is the culmination or completion of the act. The intensity and force of a karmic action vary according to the way each of these stages is carried out.
    So take the example of a negative action. If, at the stage of motivation the person has a very strong negative emotion like anger, and then acts on impulse and carries out the action, but immediately afterwards feels deep regret for the action he has committed, all three stages would not be completeley fulfilled. Consequently, the action would be less powerful compared to an instance where the person had acted out all stages completely with a strong motivation, actual execution, and a sense of taking pleasure or satisification from the act committed. Similarly, there could be cases where the individual may have a very weak motivation but circumstances force him or her to actually commit the act. In this case, although a negative act has been committed it would be less powerful than in the first example, because a strong motivating force was not present. So depending on the strength of the motivation of the actual act, and of the cmpletion, the karma produced will have corresponding degrees of intensity.

    The scriptures speak of 4 types of karma: karma which is accumulated but not carried out, karma which is carried out but not accumulated, karma which is both carried out and accumulated, and karma where there is an absence of both accumulation and the actual execution of the act. It is important to understand the significant of this point, and to appreciate that since there are different stages to every act, karmic actions themselves are composite, and their quality can be characterized as the cumulative result of each of their composing factors. Once you appreciate this, then whenever you have the opportunity to engage in a positive action as a buddhist, it is important to ensure that the initial stage, your motivation is very strong and that you have a strong intention to engage in the act. When actually carrying out the act, you should ensure that you have given it your best, and you have put all of your effort into making the action successful. Once the action is performed, it is important to ensure that you dedicate the positive karma that you have thereby created towards the weel-being of all beings as well as your own attainment of enlightenment. If you can reinforce that dedication with an understanding of the ultimate nature of reality, then it would be even more powerful.

    Even though there are many types of negative actions, they can be summarized into 10 negative or 10 non-virtuous actions. There are 3 actions of the body, 4 of speech, and 3 of the mind. The 3 bodily actions are killing, stealing, and sexual misconduct; the 4 negative actions of speech are lying, engaging in divisive speech, using harsh words, and engaging in senseless gosspip; and the 3 negative mental actions are covetousness, harboring harmful thoughts and intentions, and hlding wrong views.

    When you look at the evolution of the physical universe at large, we cannot say that the natural proccesses of cause and effect are a product of karma. The processes of cause and effect in the natural world takes place regardless of karma. Nevertheless, karma would have a role to play in determining the form that the process takes, or the direction in which it leads. So at what point in the casual process does karma come into the picture? If you refer to your own personal experience it may be easier to understand. Experience may show that for example actions that you do in the morning will have a continuing effect even in the evening. It will have had an impact upon our emotion and our sense of being so even though it was committed in the morning as an event that is finished, its effects still lingers on in our mind. The same principle operates with karma and its effects, even in the case of long-term karmic effects. According to buddhism the impact of karma can be felt over successive lifetimes as well as our present life.
  • Hi Tom. I like that emphasis on personal action rather than cosmic forces. The karmic buck stops here and now.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited February 2012
    Well the karma you have generated earlier in your life or past lives you can do nothing about as it has already been created, hwoever, in the here and now you can generate positive karma which may even help to dilute past negative karma and help past positive karma that may have not had a chance to rippen. That is how I see it anyway.
  • It's also worth noting that different Buddhist traditions, and even within a given Buddhist tradition, karma may be conceived differently.
  • It's also worth noting that different Buddhist traditions, and even within a given Buddhist tradition, karma may be conceived differently.
    That is a good point, but I think for someone starting out it is good to dispell many of the major misconceptions that come with karma.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    Considering Tibet for most of its history was a feudal system where 99% of the people lived lives filled with suffering while the 1% lived in luxury, convincing people to celebrate their suffering instead of blaming their overlords was probably a practical teaching in the minds of the establishment.

    Your statement reminded me of the first couple of times I went to Thailand. One of the things that most attracted me to the culture and people of Thailand was that although quite poor, they seemed a relatively happy people...or at least very content in their status. I assumed that an overriding reason for that was their Buddhist beliefs.

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