Does every or almost every person have to go to the lower hells to evolve?

AstralProjectee

Does every or almost every person have to go to the lower hells to evolve?

Or should I ask. Are the lower hells necessary to evolve to become a Buddha?

Peace!

B5C

Secular Buddhist standpoint.
No because levels of hell are not real because there is no evidence to support an hell. You just to have faith to believe in an hell.

Dakini

AstralProjectee, you seem to be worried about hell. I'd say the answer is "no". There's plenty of opportunity on this hellish Earth to evolve. Enjoy.

edit: whether or not the hell realms are "real" is the subject of another thread. See: Hell Realms Debate! thread for a variety of opinions from Theravada, Mahayana and New Buddhist sources.
http://www.newbuddhist.com/discussion/13661/hell-realms-debate

person

Does every or almost every person have to go to the lower hells to evolve?

Or should I ask. Are the lower hells necessary to evolve to become a Buddha?

Peace!

All it takes is some suffering to want to change. There's plenty of suffering for most of us right here.

Besides if there is a hell none of us remember it so how does it help us evolve now?

Jeffrey

Just strictly to your original question being in a hell realm is not neccessary to become a Buddha. You don't have to go looking for hell. If it finds you *then* it becomes a part of practice. It's ok to talk about hell. No need to sweep fears under the rug.

ImmersedOne

I think the more pertinent question here is what is this "self" you seem to believe in at all? Who is this "individual" that may or may not enter a hell realm, and may or may not become a buddha?

RichardH

Secular Buddhist standpoint.
No because levels of hell are not real because there is no evidence to support an hell. You just to have faith to believe in an hell.

Hi B5C. I'm just curious.. Would you mind describing a "secular Buddhist"? I don't know what that means? .... secular distinct from what?

I'm not being provocative or anything..... just genuinely curious to hear this perspective...variety is the spice of life after all.

vinlyn

Hi B5C. I'm just curious.. Would you mind describing a "secular Buddhist"? I don't know what that means? .... secular distinct from what?

I'm not being provocative or anything..... just genuinely curious to hear this perspective...variety is the spice of life after all.

Perhaps it's not what he meant, but there is a difference between those who look at Buddhism as a philosophy, as those who look at Buddhism as a religion.

pokey

Are the lower hells necessary to evolve to become a Buddha?

Yes, a buddha necessarily traverses the hells in order to help others.

pokey

Secular Buddhist standpoint.
No because levels of hell are not real because there is no evidence to support an hell. You just to have faith to believe in an hell.

Hi B5C. I'm just curious.. Would you mind describing a "secular Buddhist"? I don't know what that means? .... secular distinct from what?

I'm not being provocative or anything..... just genuinely curious to hear this perspective...variety is the spice of life after all.

This might possibly help you: http://secularbuddhistassociation.com/

taiyaki

One time I had a dream and in the dream I was teaching a class and I exploded in rage because some of my students were harming themselves.

So I saw them turn red and demonic, then I realized that it mirrored myself. In the dream I looked at myself and I was the demon and I was red. I awoke with a lot of stress and anger energy inside me.

Then I realized that the external reality in the dream just was a pure projection of my subjective experience. The hell was my projection and I was the demon.

This is how I view hell and heaven from a buddhist standpoint.

We can either say they do exist but they are dependent upon various causes and conditions. I'd like to believe hell is mind only. Even in hell, one can bring mindfulness and learn to respond to situations rather than create a further hell.

So yes, as a Buddhist one must actively engage with hell. From a Mahayana point of view, without the negative and others we cannot attain full buddhahood.

We need irritating people to teach us patience.

We need suffering beings to motivate us to practice harder.

We need all negativity to give motivation for us to transform the energy into positivity.

Without hell there is no heaven.

And eventually both are transcended, yet embraced as parts of our conscious experience that arise out of cause/conditions.

ImmersedOne

Are the lower hells necessary to evolve to become a Buddha?

Yes, a buddha necessarily traverses the hells in order to help others.

You sure you're not referring to a bodhisattva here?

pokey

One time I had a dream and in the dream I was teaching a class and I exploded in rage because some of my students were harming themselves.

So I saw them turn red and demonic, then I realized that it mirrored myself. In the dream I looked at myself and I was the demon and I was red. I awoke with a lot of stress and anger energy inside me.

Then I realized that the external reality in the dream just was a pure projection of my subjective experience. The hell was my projection and I was the demon.

This is how I view hell and heaven from a buddhist standpoint.

We can either say they do exist but they are dependent upon various causes and conditions. I'd like to believe hell is mind only. Even in hell, one can bring mindfulness and learn to respond to situations rather than create a further hell.

So yes, as a Buddhist one must actively engage with hell. From a Mahayana point of view, without the negative and others we cannot attain full buddhahood.

We need irritating people to teach us patience.

We need suffering beings to motivate us to practice harder.

We need all negativity to give motivation for us to transform the energy into positivity.

Without hell there is no heaven.

And eventually both are transcended, yet embraced as parts of our conscious experience that arise out of cause/conditions.

You only need yourself cuz, as you say, the irritation, suffering and negativity is all being projected from you.

B5C

Hi B5C. I'm just curious.. Would you mind describing a "secular Buddhist"? I don't know what that means? .... secular distinct from what?

I'm not being provocative or anything..... just genuinely curious to hear this perspective...variety is the spice of life after all.

Secular Buddhism is basically Buddhism without religion. Keep Buddhism as a philosophy and keep the Buddha as an historical figure and not a religious icon.

Links:
http://buddhism.about.com/od/becomingabuddhist/a/secularbuddhism.htm
http://www.thesecularbuddhist.com/
http://www.stephenbatchelor.org/index.php/en/

Article from Sam Harris:
"Killing the Buddha"
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=2903Itemid=247

vinlyn

Secular Buddhism is basically Buddhism without religion. Keep Buddhism as a philosophy and keep the Buddha as an historical figure and not a religious icon.

Good definition, and one of the great debates within Buddhism.

taiyaki

@pokey

the bodhisattva uses the projections to further positive qualities, until all negativity is overcome. since projections are infinite, potentiality for positive expression is infinite.

the bodhisattva neither clings onto ultimate reality and relative reality, but both are used to develop into full buddhahood.

it is only when we see suffering an inherently empty (ultimately) and appearance of suffering (dependently arisen) that we can grow infinite compassion. Totally embracing suffering and at the same time not touched by it.

fun thoughts.

RichardH

Secular Buddhism is basically Buddhism without religion. Keep Buddhism as a philosophy and keep the Buddha as an historical figure and not a religious icon.

Good definition, and one of the great debates within Buddhism.

......except when we are practicing, and have put view aside.


This is one of those short smart-ass responses , but it is true.

pokey

Secular Buddhism is basically Buddhism without religion. Keep Buddhism as a philosophy and keep the Buddha as an historical figure and not a religious icon.

Good definition, and one of the great debates within Buddhism.

......except when we are practicing, and have put view aside.


This is one of those short smart-ass responses , but it is true.

We are always practicing... something.

pokey

@pokey

the bodhisattva uses the projections to further positive qualities, until all negativity is overcome. since projections are infinite, potentiality for positive expression is infinite.

the bodhisattva neither clings onto ultimate reality and relative reality, but both are used to develop into full buddhahood.

it is only when we see suffering an inherently empty (ultimately) and appearance of suffering (dependently arisen) that we can grow infinite compassion. Totally embracing suffering and at the same time not touched by it.

fun thoughts.

Why do you address this to me?

RichardH

Secular Buddhism is basically Buddhism without religion. Keep Buddhism as a philosophy and keep the Buddha as an historical figure and not a religious icon.

Good definition, and one of the great debates within Buddhism.

......except when we are practicing, and have put view aside.


This is one of those short smart-ass responses , but it is true.

We are always practicing... something.

yes.... and when I am absorbed in a view, secular, religious, or otherwise.. I am practicing absorption in view. I do it all the time... but can also.. through the practice of meditation..mindfulness, .... let go. I assume that is the case with secular Buddhism too.. leaving view at the door... dropping it at the bell..... and over time grasping views in general less tightly .

i mean I have my opinion of Batchelor et al, but.... different strokes.

pokey

You might try dropping it at times besides when the bell rings.

RichardH

oh boy... you sure showed me, Pokey.


..and BTW... do you remember the episode of Gumby when Prickle was obsessed with getting a corn crib, of all things... and finally got one, filled with turnip? That bizarre show messed up many kids dreams.

compassionate_warrior

@AstralProjectee If you have a precious human rebirth now, you've probably already done your time in hell, long ago. So make the most of what you have. Go out and perform a random act of kindness today.

RichardH

You might try dropping it at times besides when the bell rings.

Hi pokey. joking aside.. Your comment deserves a serious response. You seem to be suggesting a certain advancement on your part. It's the kind of thing that can only happen online. I do not believe for a second that you are somehow free from attachment to view. View attachment, lessens by degree, and it is possible to hold views quite lightly and to let go where before we could not let go. I still get caught up in view at times, and so do you. So lets be real here, and not be internet Buddhas. I do my best, and no doubt so do you.

seeker242

Does every or almost every person have to go to the lower hells to evolve?

Or should I ask. Are the lower hells necessary to evolve to become a Buddha?

Peace!

No and no! Now be at peace and stop obsessing over hell! What is important is what you are doing right now.

pokey

oh boy... you sure showed me, Pokey.


..and BTW... do you remember the episode of Gumby when Prickle was obsessed with getting a corn crib, of all things... and finally got one, filled with turnip? That bizarre show messed up many kids dreams.

Only the disturbed ones.

IronRabbit