Jhana

ThailandTom

Hello all, seeing as my one thing I really need to try and improve on is meditation, I would like to ask about Jhanas. I would prefer own word posts rather thank links as I would like to har of personally experiences with Jhanas and also exactly what they are. Thank you in advance.

shanyin

I believe I have experienced lower level jhanas during anapanasatti.meditation
My teacher.described them as blissful. The first of.8 being bliss.. second bliss beyond bliss and so forth. My experience is that mental states.like joy arise. Thought was experienced differently. U may find this interesting that the.Buddha.described that one experiences.verbal thought. 90% sure.about that I would love to.look it.up. the 5 hindrances are vanished temporarily which can.last for even.a few days.and certainly this was at least similar.to my experience. The Buddha described ethicAl requirements for.entering jhana. However if.i am.frankly not.lying to myself about experiencing it. One thinf I can say.is that.these.mental.states or fruit ions.I.could say are. Temporary.especially.in giving.up.on the meditation. My teacher said that jhanas are like.putfinf a rock.on the weeds of.the defilement whereas vipassana roots them out and.leads to e.lightenment Jeff id.love to chat sometime... just posted.this on my phone 5 am.can't sleep.haha

shanyin

Oh lol its tom not jeff

shanyin

I did not need to meditate for more.than 45 minutes a day for a.month for this state to arise.

SpinyNorman2

Hello all, seeing as my one thing I really need to try and improve on is meditation, I would like to ask about Jhanas.

I've found that accessing jhana requires quite a lot of time on the cushion, 2 or 3 hours a day really. But some people seem to find it easier.

Spiny

SpinyNorman2

This is a brief description of jhana from the Access to Insight dictionary and I think is worth a read: note that the breath is often used as the physical sensation for developing concentration.

Jhana:
Mental absorption. A state of strong concentration focused on a single physical sensation (resulting in rūpa jhāna) or mental notion (resulting in arūpa jhāna). Development of jhāna arises from the temporary suspension of the five hindrances (see nīvaraṇa) through the development of five mental factors: vitakka (directed thought), vicāra (evaluation), pīti (rapture), sukha (pleasure), and ekagattārammana (singleness of preoccupation).

ThailandTom

I have been practicing buddhism for 3 or so years now and I meditate about once every 2-3 weeks. I have never gotten past 20 minutes or so but my inisghts and realizations have come from mere observation. However, I understand the importance of meditation so I am trying to impliment it more and more. I was curious about jhanas as I heard I think it was Jeffrey that said if you meditate and then after your eyes feel heavy, you have not reached a jhana.

weighted

Thanks for this thread. I've been interested in expanding vipassana practice myself to include work on the jhanas.

I bought Shaila Catherine's Wisdom Wide and Deep: A Practical Handbook for Mastering Jhana and Vipassana - this seems to be a huge workbook and step-by-step manual for working through all of the stages of this style of meditation. It's so massive I expect it will take years for anyone to work through it! The reviews were all wonderful which led me to just put my money down. I've yet to start working with this book, though.

I, too, prefer personal stories and experiences, so look forward to what others have to say about this here.

shanyin

That.book.sounds.like.gold I'll check it out

ThailandTom

Thanks for this thread. I've been interested in expanding vipassana practice myself to include work on the jhanas.

I bought Shaila Catherine's Wisdom Wide and Deep: A Practical Handbook for Mastering Jhana and Vipassana - this seems to be a huge workbook and step-by-step manual for working through all of the stages of this style of meditation. It's so massive I expect it will take years for anyone to work through it! The reviews were all wonderful which led me to just put my money down. I've yet to start working with this book, though.

I, too, prefer personal stories and experiences, so look forward to what others have to say about this here.

Thanks for the book suggestion weighted, and as far as what people have to say, not much lol

Honden

Hmm, seems like an interesting book...*quickly rushes off to Amazon*

Sabre

Jhanas are high states of concentration, an absorption is a really good description. In jhana you kind of see inside of the mind.

But you should know that not all teachers have the same concept of Jhana. For example: some say you can still think and/or feel the body inside jhana, others say that's impossible. I agree with the latter.

I myself would prefer a book written by a monk -not a layperson- because they realy devoted their lives to the subject so chances are they know better what they are talking about. For example the book Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm goes into the jhanas and describes how to practice them. Also it is a very good book for the basis of meditation.


Sabre

ThailandTom

Jhanas are high states of concentration, an absorption is a really good description. In jhana you kind of see inside of the mind.

But you should know that not all teachers have the same concept of Jhana. For example: some say you can still think and/or feel the body inside jhana, others say that's impossible. I agree with the latter. Also, there are no decisions possible in jhana.

I myself would prefer a book written by a monk -not a layperson- because they realy devoted their lives to the subject so chances are they know better what they are talking about. For example the book Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm goes into the jhanas and describes how to practice them. Also it is a very good book for the basis of meditation.


Sabre

Cheers @Sabre that does make sense to read a book on the subject written by a monk, especially one who illustrates the dharma in such a unique and practicle way.

SpinyNorman2

Thanks for the book suggestion weighted, and as far as what people have to say, not much lol

It's good to read books and get advice but there is really no substitute for developing a solid meditation practice. And I'd recommend going on a meditation retreat if you can.

ThailandTom

The opportunity is there, it is just the battle with myself to go. Thank you for the advice though, I am sure it is solid. What better way to learn about meditation than from a retreat first hand. Thanks spinny.

patbb

i believe kasina meditation can be a much more efficient way to develop concentration for some people struggling with breath meditation.
it certainly was much faster and easier for me.

Kasina meditation is using an external object to focus on, like a disk or a dish or a spot.

I've seen many people experiencing fast progress with this method after trying for a long time to meditate on the breath without much success...

I think the reason for it is we live in a different world than the Buddha thousand years ago.
People use to live much quieter lives, no artificial lights, no computers, no cell phones, no tv, working in a field all day long where the imagery doesn't change, not dining out very often...
In todays world, i think people have become far more hyperactive, eyesight wise.
Their attention and eyes activity never stop, look at this, look at that, click here, click there...

So people are more used to use their eyes, so when you ask them to close and stop using their eyes and use another sense to focus on the breath, this is very difficult to do.
So we are more used to using our eye sense, why not use it to our advantage and use this to develop concentration?

For me, progress went really fast when i started to do kasina meditation and I also learned indirectly how to look at the breath (or whatever object) by doing kasina.


there is a very good thread here if you are ever interested to try:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/102060

weighted

@SpinyNorman While I'd agree, many of us (myself included) can't afford, be it financially or time-wise or both, to go on a retreat. The book I mentioned is a workbook for developing an at-home meditation practice. It is largely from books that I've been able to do this in the past, and I wouldn't want to discourage any NB members who can't go on a retreat, for whatever reason, and therefore assume they can't develop a regular meditation practice on their own. It can be done!

ThailandTom

@patbb thanks for the info on kasina meditation, I knew of it before but never the name. I have never really tried it out either. I kind of have toyed with the idea, but it always seemed non traditional which now seems to me a somewhat silly notion. I will try it out when I next have some solitude. Would focusing on the nose whilst breathing count as kasina?

patbb

Would focusing on the nose whilst breathing count as kasina?

looking at the nose?

maybe, but you will certainly strain your eyes so i don't think its a good idea

I think you should avoid to mixte breath meditation with kasina meditation, it is best to do one or the other.

Just learn to do kasina meditation,
read the link i sent for more info. (great read since you get to read about the progress of the person who started the thread, very encouraging and exciting)
it is very simple.

basically just have a dish or something to look at in front of you about 3-5 feets away from you so you don't strain your eyes.
Then let your eyes rest on it. You'll be surprise to see what happen next

patbb

I think you should avoid to mixte breath meditation with kasina meditation, it is best to do one or the other.

i meant to not try to mix the techniques in the same session, as in
"breath in and focus on the sensation of the breath, breath out focus on a external object"
i don't think that would be a good idea.

but it certainly fine to do a kasina meditation in the morning, and a breath meditation in the afternoon.
or 15 minutes kasina, 15 minutes breath.
This is the kind of thing i'm doing most of the time.


i think a good analogy (for me at least) is to think of it in terms of momentum.
for someone who never developed a real strong concentration practice
Doing breath meditation is like starting your car in the fourth gear.
it's very difficult to get up to speed, it can take a long time and be very discouraging.
Kasina meditation is like the first gear. Easily get you some momentum until you have a decent concentration (access concentration or first jhana) but then you can switch to the other gears much more easily.

This is how i think of it and it is a good analogy for me. Of course as in everything, experience will differ with each person.

ThailandTom

I think you should avoid to mixte breath meditation with kasina meditation, it is best to do one or the other.

i meant to not try to mix the techniques in the same session, as in
"breath in and focus on the sensation of the breath, breath out focus on a external object"
i don't think that would be a good idea.

but it certainly fine to do a kasina meditation in the morning, and a breath meditation in the afternoon.
or 15 minutes kasina, 15 minutes breath.
This is the kind of thing i'm doing most of the time.


i think a good analogy (for me at least) is to think of it in terms of momentum.
for someone who never developed a real strong concentration practice
Doing breath meditation is like starting your car in the fourth gear.
it's very difficult to get up to speed, it can take a long time and be very discouraging.
Kasina meditation is like the first gear. Easily get you some momentum until you have a decent concentration (access concentration or first jhana) but then you can switch to the other gears much more easily.

This is how i think of it and it is a good analogy for me. Of course as in everything, experience will differ with each person.

I really like the car analogy @patbb and thanks for the links. When I meant looking at the nose though, I meant focusing on it with my eyes closed whilst breathing, but that would still count as breath meditation of course. Thank you for the posts though

SpinyNorman2

i believe kasina meditation can be a much more efficient way to develop concentration for some people struggling with breath meditation.
it certainly was much faster and easier for me.

Kasina meditation is using an external object to focus on, like a disk or a dish or a spot.

Good point. And of course in some traditions it is usual to meditate with eyes open anyway.

Spiny

ThailandTom

Was it the Dalai lama who suggested or said that open-eyes meditation is a lot more effective? Correct me if I am wrong.

SpinyNorman2

I wouldn't want to discourage any NB members who can't go on a retreat, for whatever reason, and therefore assume they can't develop a regular meditation practice on their own. It can be done!

I agree. Though it seems often people get a real boost from a period of serious practice.

ThailandTom

Self retreats are alwats an option, unless you are handicaped or something. However there is of course no teacher to smack you with a stick, but being with just you yours and your mind for an extended period of time can provide great insight.

SpinyNorman2

Self retreats are alwats an option, unless you are handicaped or something. However there is of course no teacher to smack you with a stick, but being with just you yours and your mind for an extended period of time can provide great insight.

I'd also recommend solitary retreats, which can be very revealing.

Spiny

weighted

Was it the Dalai lama who suggested or said that open-eyes meditation is a lot more effective? Correct me if I am wrong.

@ThailandTom Here's what I can find on his views of the eyes open or closed:

"Let the eyes gaze downwards loosely -- it is not necessary that they be directed to the end of the nose; they can be pointed toward the floor in front of you if that seems more natural. Do not open the eyes too wide nor forcefully close them; leave them open a little. Sometimes they will close of their own accord; that is all right. Even if your eyes are open, when your mental consciousness becomes steady upon its object, these appearances to the eye consciousness will not disturb you.

"Has something appeared to your mind? Are the sense objects in front of your eyes bothering you? If that is the case, it is all right to close them, but with the eyes closed, do you see a reddish appearance? If you see red with the eyes closed or if you are bothered by what you see when your eyes are open, you are too involved with the eye consciousness and thus should try to withdraw attention from the eye consciousness and put it with the mental consciousness."

http://viewonbuddhism.org/Meditations/dalai_lama_meditation.html

ThailandTom

Thanks very much @weighted that is what I was kind of getting at with the whole focusing on the nose thing. I will try to pmpliment that more than your averge sit down, eyes shit and shut up method

SpinyNorman2

Thanks very much @weighted that is what I was kind of getting at with the whole focusing on the nose thing. I will try to pmpliment that more than your averge sit down, eyes shit and shut up method

I think it's worth trying out different approaches to see what works best - there are usually pros and cons.

caz

Hello all, seeing as my one thing I really need to try and improve on is meditation, I would like to ask about Jhanas.

I've found that accessing jhana requires quite a lot of time on the cushion, 2 or 3 hours a day really. But some people seem to find it easier.

Spiny

I found that as well, Generally Jhana's are wonderful however concentration really doesn't substantially change the mind even non Buddhists have traditions of practicing such concentration, Using concentration in conjunction with subjects that really do cause the mind to change such as the Lamrim scopes are an excellent way of removing delusions and increase our good qualities.

SpinyNorman2

, Generally Jhana's are wonderful however concentration really doesn't substantially change the mind

They change the mind temporarily - perhaps there is some lasting effect?

Spiny

caz

, Generally Jhana's are wonderful however concentration really doesn't substantially change the mind

They change the mind temporarily - perhaps there is some lasting effect?

Spiny

Not unless they are used in conjunction with other techniques as I said there are non Buddhist traditions that practice them and they don't achieve Liberation through their use nor did they during Buddha's time. Concentration is a means to an end not an end in itself if we don't apply it to removing delusion its useless in the Buddhist context some people practice it simply to develop extra normal abilities but again what use are they in this one life compared to the many future births there shall be after death if we do not end Self Grasping Ignorance ? Developing concentration needs to be used in a certain way other wise we are just looking at temporary meditative bliss.

Us Buddhists being not sort of foresight well lets use it appropriately.

ThailandTom

By the way, I am reading all of these posts, but have nothing to say, merely sitting like the wise-eyed student

Sabre

@caznamyaw

In my experience it is impossible to have jhanas without insight and also, from jhana insight naturally arises. No real need to mix techniques, because jhana requires BOTH concentration and insight. Jhana is not a pure concentration meditation. For example, in the sutta of mindful breathing, we see the insight stages also. Also a separate insight meditation does not exist if we look at the words of the Buddha.

Again we might be talking about different jhana-interpretations, see for example here:
http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm

The author unskillfully calls one approach to jhana "Visuddhimagga Style Jhanas", as if they were not based on the suttas but on the commentary. However, might still be an interesting read, and some good links.

Metta,
Sabre

Sabre

Also maybe skillful to consider that some buddhist traditions don't teach jhana at all...

upekka

assuming you know the basic techniques of meditation like 'breath in and breath out' or kasina or asuba etc. and do it for a while like 10 or 15 minutes

you yourself would know whether your mind is getting calm or it still is running here and there

if you see your mind is getting calm then check whether you have greediness of that calmness or you are not enough settled with that calmness or you feel sleepy
(in dhamma terms, you can check whether your mind has the five hindrances: kamacchanda, vyapada, thinamidda etc.)

if they are not there, that means you are very close to jhana or at jhana

just don't try to get into jhana but continue your meditation and you will be there without fail