Is There Anything That Should Never Be Forgiven?

AllbuddhaBound

What is the limit to compassion and forgiveness? And if there are sins that should never be forgiven, what needs to happen to the sinner? Banishment? Capital Punishment? Life sentences?

Dakini

They say that forgiveness is for the forgiver, mainly. It unburdens the heart. So it's up to each and every forgiver to decide is there's a limit, if anything is beyond forgiving.

AllbuddhaBound

I understand and a good point Dakini. Mind you, I have seen the transgressors life be altered by the forgiveness of an injured party.

Dakini

Yes, I've heard of cases like that. What a blessing when that happens!

Theswingisyellow

To the OP and IMO No.
To hold hatred and anger only hurts yourself.
Forgiving is very healing.

vinlyn

I think this is a question that typically gets very cliched answers. I'm not criticizing anyone, I'm just saying that I think it's more complex that most of us say.

I think there are actually 3 responses when someone truly hurts you:
1. Forgiving them
2. Forgetting the situation
3. And a third condition that is less than forgiving. The only word that I can think of that comes close is to "absolve", in the sense of "to set free". For example, if there is such a thing as judgment day, there is one hurt in my life that I can't quite forgive, but I would not want that person to have to pay a consequence.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, and perhaps it is a very subtle difference.

federica

I also think people associate forgiveness with permitting the transgressor to remain as a part of your life; to continue embracing them in your company, and accepting them as a person you engage with, in future, as if nothing had happened.
i don't think that needs to be the case.....
you can compassionately forgive someone, genuinely, but then decide that for the sake of self-preservation and personal emotional safety, to distance yourself from that person, and engage with them as little as possible.
I have had to do this with a member of my personal family, and while i view them as a human being deserving of loving kindness and compassion, i personally choose to engage with them at complete minimum requirement, because i know they're volatile, unpredictable and utterly changeable.
This is also part of who they are.
but It's not my bag, so why carry it....?

Dakini

@federica What does forgiveness mean, in the type of situation you describe? I think sometimes forgiveness is likened to acceptance, but that's not it, either. And forgive does not need to include "forget", either. I'm trying to get some clarity on exactly what forgiveness is. Maybe it's like Vinlyn says, absolving someone of guilt, which is a limited kind of a thing.

edit: Oxford Eng. Dictionary: "grant free pardon and to give up all claim on account of an offence or debt".
Wiki: Letting go of resentment, grudge, bitterness

Those two describe completely different things, imo. One can grant pardon without letting go of any emotion associated with the wrongful act committed. And one can let go of resentment, etc. without pardoning someone.

federica

I think you should combine the two.
Grant free pardon (to release yourself from having to carry the burden of sorrow) and give up all claim of an offence or debt - ("The Past is over. Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better Past.") AND letting go of resentment, any grudge, any bitterness - which is self-defeating and harmful to your own nature.

vinlyn

I also think people associate forgiveness with permitting the transgressor to remain as a part of your life; to continue embracing them in your company, and accepting them as a person you engage with, in future, as if nothing had happened.
i don't think that needs to be the case.....
you can compassionately forgive someone, genuinely, but then decide that for the sake of self-preservation and personal emotional safety, to distance yourself from that person, and engage with them as little as possible.
I have had to do this with a member of my personal family, and while i view them as a human being deserving of loving kindness and compassion, i personally choose to engage with them at complete minimum requirement, because i know they're volatile, unpredictable and utterly changeable.
This is also part of who they are.
but It's not my bag, so why carry it....?

I like your thinking on this. Kinda close to what I'm saying.

The person I'm thinking of, I don't want anything bad or negative to happen to them. No ultimate punishment, if there even is such a thing. But I also would never put myself in a similar position with them again. They have not earned my trust. Or, re-earned it.

An aside, this person has apologized, and I think deeply...and said recently (and this makes sense because this person is a Thai Buddhist) -- "I will make it all up to you in the next life."

ownerof1000oddsocks

No, at roots level we're all survival machines. In a nutshell, 'me first' is hardwired and this is often expressed as egocentricism, ethnocentricism and anthropocentricism.

While it can be a mistake to be apathetic or tolerant of our fitness enhancing strategies, it's also useless to play the finger pointing game. What sort of power is that really to make someone else feel ashamed for what they do or what they are? Surely it's up to the 'perp' to accept or come to some sort of realization about their behaviour.

It's our job to deal with these matters from the bottom up at roots level. For now all the power we have is to lock away, to hide or try and flog misdoers into shape, rather like plastic surgery.

The other power we have is to learn to cope with our own feelings.

If an inanimate object harms you, don't shout at it. Don't throw your slippers at the wall, don't say stupid computer. Same applies to calculating beings. Finger pointing is zero power. Saving face doesn't diminish the defeat. For the time being we are limited to restraining measures, whether those measures are for people, animals, plants, tornados, earthquakes..

Get a thicker skin and don't stop having fun.

pyramidsong

I also think people associate forgiveness with permitting the transgressor to remain as a part of your life; to continue embracing them in your company, and accepting them as a person you engage with, in future, as if nothing had happened.
i don't think that needs to be the case.....
you can compassionately forgive someone, genuinely, but then decide that for the sake of self-preservation and personal emotional safety, to distance yourself from that person, and engage with them as little as possible.
I have had to do this with a member of my personal family, and while i view them as a human being deserving of loving kindness and compassion, i personally choose to engage with them at complete minimum requirement, because i know they're volatile, unpredictable and utterly changeable.
This is also part of who they are.
but It's not my bag, so why carry it....?

I agree 100%

I have a situation in my life right now where someone is acting in a way that has made me lose all trust in her and a great deal of respect. I have compassion for where she's at but as far as I'm concerned there is no relationship there now.

If in a few months she realises that her temper was misplaced and she apologises, I will forgive her and accept her apology (to release us both). But I don't want her in my life.

pyramidsong

On the flipside, I have done some things that a couple of people struggle to forgive. I understand that. It was a long time ago and I'm completely different now. It hurts, but I do understand it. So I guess it depends on the situation. I think part of it comes down to how sorry the person is, what it was they did and how much they've demonstrated they've changed since it happened.

etherea

I have great difficulty with this. Compassion and forgiveness for someone who has wronged me greatly? I can't! The best I can do is not retaliate or show how really pissed I am. I am working on my thoughts and feelings but ..................................I suppose that it's an ongoing process.

seeker242

What is the limit to compassion and forgiveness? And if there are sins that should never be forgiven, what needs to happen to the sinner? Banishment? Capital Punishment? Life sentences?

There is no limit to compassion or forgiveness. The person punishes themselves just by doing those actions. They don't need to be punished by you or other people in order to receive the "punishment". Cause and effect will ensure that they "reap what they sow" and that is not dependent of what you or other people do or don't do to them. It is literally impossible to "get away" with a wrong act, regardless of circumstances.

The murderer that fled to Mexico who was never caught by anyone and is still free, has not gotten away with anything. Although, people think he has and he thinks he has, but they are all mistaken! However, that does not mean you let a murder out of jail but that does not mean you kill them either. That does not mean that you don't do what needs to be done to protect others. But it is not done for revenge on the person but for the protection of others. Capital punishment is always unacceptable because it is killing. Capital punishment is nothing more than an act of revenge.

And if there are sins that should never be forgiven

There aren't any.

pyramidsong

Agree completely, seeker.

person

During the Buddha's life there was someone known as Angulimala. He was a murderer who had killed 999 people and tried to make the Buddha his 1,000th. The Buddha helped him see the error of his actions and Angulimala became a student of the Buddha. Eventually he became an arhat.

person

Milarepa is another good example. He killed 35 people in revenge, then repented his ways and became a highly accomplished meditator.

KnightofBuddha

If a family member were murdered, I would not be able to forgive. I'm sure I would be internally capable of such an action, but it would not be my place to do so. Only the victim of a crime can forgive someone, and if they are dead, it's kind of a moot point. "Forgiving" on their behalf is presumptuous.

KnightofBuddha

That said, anyone or family member that has been so gravely wronged as were the local Chardon families this week in the Ohio shooting...they should do whatever they feel is necessary to honor the memory of their children and come to grips with the tragedy. If that means forgiveness of their killer, then they should forgive.

AMH

I would love to say I got it done on all counts of forgiveness, not really. I have a few that I think have no clue what they have done even though they understand it was something wrong or hurtful. I still tend to keep boundaries in the relationship or cut it off. There are others were I would say whenever I think about them I think "they should be in a position to learn". That could be very harsh and most of the time I think it won't happen in this lifetime.

And then there is myself, I am having a hard time since I think I am letting myself off the hook, and some friends think what I did was nothing wrong, but I learned a lesson.

AllbuddhaBound

A difficult concept in the west where it is believed "people need to feel guilt over and over and over when they have done wrong." We do not feel a person has truly suffered enough if they are not acting ashamed. "You should be ashamed of yourself." "Have you no shame?" "The gall of him/her." Even our language demonstrates this need to feel bad about ones self.
What if that person is actually showing compassion for self and wants to let go of the guilt and shame? Do they really need to be a guilty and shamed person for the rest of their lives? Some people would say so.

pyramidsong

I agree, AllbuddhaBound. There are many who expect someone to change but then don't allow them the space to do it, instead hanging the past over their head indefinitely.

Judgement and moral righteousness achieves nothing. I'm convinced of this.

AMH

What if that person is actually showing compassion for self and wants to let go of the guilt and shame? Do they really need to be a guilty and shamed person for the rest of their lives? Some people would say so.

That is why I have found in my situation where I want to have self compassion but I feel the other person would honestly feel hurt if they did not think I took it seriously, that the best course was to go a separate way.

maarten

I think it's interesting to note that forgiving is not an act but an internal process. If you've not forgiven someone, you cannot >make< yourself forgive. Saying "i forgive you" is meaningless if you still feel resentment. The most you can do is try to let go of resentment, and speed up the process that way.

AllbuddhaBound

That is why I have found in my situation where I want to have self compassion but I feel the other person would honestly feel hurt if they did not think I took it seriously, that the best course was to go a separate way.

It is one thing to feel humble or humiliated when one has made a mistake, but Karma can be reversed too. If a person persists and holds a grudge, they may persist and hold grudges against themselves. I feel sorry for a person who hurts themselves in this way.

AMH

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It is one thing to feel humble or humiliated when one has made a mistake, but Karma can be reversed too. If a person persists and holds a grudge, they may persist and hold grudges against themselves. I feel sorry for a person who hurts themselves in this way.

I think that is very true, I wanted to reconnect to help but I realize I probably can't. So metta knows no distance. Maybe someday i will hear back and he will be at more peace

vinlyn

A difficult concept in the west where it is believed "people need to feel guilt over and over and over when they have done wrong." We do not feel a person has truly suffered enough if they are not acting ashamed. "You should be ashamed of yourself." "Have you no shame?" "The gall of him/her." Even our language demonstrates this need to feel bad about ones self.
What if that person is actually showing compassion for self and wants to let go of the guilt and shame? Do they really need to be a guilty and shamed person for the rest of their lives? Some people would say so.

But I think I understand why people feel that way. Let me give you an example, albeit much abbreviated.

My partner when I was living in Thailand stole $15,000 from me. He has since apologized profusely and repeatedly. Says he is suffering form his action. But he still has my $15,000, and says he will make it up to me in his next life.

How convenient.

MsJeni

I have a few thoughts on this topic
1. I can see and feel it when I try to calmly talk to people and just point out or figure out ... what it is that has hurt me or someone else, and they feel shame because of it. I don't mean to cause them to feel shame, but rather simply the act of letting them know how a particular thing causes me hurt and to try to understand why the do ... so that I maybe I won't be hurt by it. The thoughts going through my head are simply, 1st step to fixing anything is to see and understand the issue first.
2. Also, isn't removing yourself from their lives in itself a punishment for both of you? I do understand this path, and I have had to do this myself in recent years. Somehow it still feels like as some kind of punishment for all involved, even though I don't intend nor am I trying to punish them. Still it hurts us both on some level, because we are now without each other.
3. Often my approach is so gentle in letting people know about offensive things, that they seem to read what I say, do, or don't do 2 ways. I am naive, and/or my lack of being angry is some how permission for them to continue that behavior. In the worst cases the behaviors got extremely awful, and their acts lead me to a horrible place I wish no one went there (that was out of the intense pain of not understanding and not really what I think anger is). Hindsight in most cases, I can see how/where things went wayward, but I still don't know how I could have handled it differently.

One big issues I have is, I don't have a true understand anger. I am not sure I have ever truly felt it. I have felt, frustrated, confusion, and fear thus that hurt, is that truly what anger feels like? I have lashed out with words at times, only because I didn't know what else to do (mostly a very loud STOP IT, or some form of that). Never have I felt I wanted someone or something pain or harmed. When I feel extremely hurt, I just want to get away from whatever it is, curl up in a little ball and hibernate until it stops hurting.

AllbuddhaBound

My partner when I was living in Thailand stole $15,000 from me. He has since apologized profusely and repeatedly. Says he is suffering form his action. But he still has my $15,000, and says he will make it up to me in his next life.

How convenient.

Agreed, it is convenient. Does he truly intend to do anything to make it up to you? It sounds like he does not, at least for this life.

If he still has the money, I would think genuine regret would dictate that he pay restitution in some way.

vinlyn

My partner when I was living in Thailand stole $15,000 from me. He has since apologized profusely and repeatedly. Says he is suffering form his action. But he still has my $15,000, and says he will make it up to me in his next life.

How convenient.

Agreed, it is convenient. Does he truly intend to do anything to make it up to you? It sounds like he does not, at least for this life.

If he still has the money, I would think genuine regret would dictate that he pay restitution in some way.

That's my feeling...although, I try to also understand what it is like to live a life where survival is more tenuous than what we experience in the West. Not that that should make a difference between right and wrong and following one of the most basic Precepts.

There was a time many years ago when, here in the U.S. I had a Thai roommate for a couple of years. I happened to be with a small group of them (all Thais except me and a woman) at a little party at the house. The woman told my roommate how much she loved him. Sort of awkward in front of everyone. But my roommate thanked her and said that nothing was going to happen in this lifetime. She took that as an incredible insult, but I think he was just referring to the general Thai belief of future lives.

AMH

Yes convenient. He should be making it right financially, and suffering with his income. We had a roomate for 4 months when our daughter was very young. It was supposed to help us pay off a bill and in exchange we lived in really cramped quarters. So he never paid. He had a habit of getting in a relationship and then living with the woman until she got sick and tired, then moving in with frat buddies, and then another woman. We finally started hearing the stories and realized this was not one rough patch but a way of life. We talked to his current girlfriend and she said he had been leaving more things at her house, but with this knowledge she broke it off. We eventually put all his stuff outside after he told us many times he would move by a certain date.

I don't feel bad at all for our actions, I wonder what happened to him, but I never got a check in the end. There was forgiveness decades ago but I wouldn't look him up

KarunaDharmakaya

Brahma net sutra REMORSE REPENT REFORM

nothing cant be forgiven.

have shame for the action ,repent to the Buddha,reform yourself.

peace and love

RichardH

Everything can be forgiven.. But it can take time for body and mind to process it.. even if everything is forgiven in theory. I know that no matter what someone has done, I ultimately forgive them... but it needs to be worked through organically.. I can't just tell myself it is forgiven.