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what 'doesn't' last

genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
edited March 2012 in General Banter
I don't know about you, but I have an incorrigible habit of assuming or hoping that things will last. Contrary to all intellectual and emotional evidence to the contrary, still I catch myself assuming or hoping. Buddhism will last, shoes will last, love will last, underwear will last, job will last, friends will last, pleasure will last ... the list is endless.

What a strange habit when the evidence points to what seems to be an opposite conclusion -- things do not last.

But even that conclusion doesn't last very well. The five toes on my foot yesterday appear to have lasted into today.

Buddhists can point to the word "ego" and weave a compelling narrative. But narratives don't really last either.

Why, with all the evidence available, am I not laughing and at ease? What's the matter with the truth?

... You know, the truth that doesn't last?

Just noodling.

Comments

  • hundred foot poles everywhere. keep jumping and falling.

    always on the lookout for that thing that lasts. impermanence is quite reliable.
  • IñigoIñigo Explorer
    edited March 2012
    Thought provoking post Genkaku
    My thought whilst reading your list was; yes, all these things listed will last but they won't last for the 'you' and 'me' as we picture ourselves. They will still continue to exist but like you and me, they will change with time, sometimes existing more predominately and other times appearing not to exist at all.

    It can be because at the back of our mind we still feel that we are the body. It is the body which makes us continue to feel uneasy when faced with the cold reality that we all must undergo change (birth-death).

    :)
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2012
    I realize impermanence first hand, but I am also stupid and tired... and settle for short term stuff in a bubble. Then the bubble pops.. no bubble.....O Then another bubble forms (all sneaky like).. Then the bubble pops... no bubble...O Then another bubble forms....

    I'll be stupid up until my last breath.
  • Ahh the flip side is that nothing horrible lasts forever either. We can be stuck in the 'this will last' mode either way. Thinking that something wonderful will last, but knowing it won't, and then stressing. Or thinking something horrible will be forever, not seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, and then stressing.
  • Constant change is here to stay.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2012
    Ahh the flip side is that nothing horrible lasts forever ......
    Have you ever played Scrabble with a ninety year old?

  • SabreSabre Veteran
    Attachment is the source of all suffering. It's a one-liner, I know. But it's so true.
  • We are always different from one moment to the next. So we are never the same.

    As @AHeerdt says, this is hopeful in that painful moments will pass, nothing is fixed or permanent.

    I'm working on this myself, trying to realize and be more mindful when in the throes of pain or grief that it will pass.

    Meditating on self/non-self has been helpful.
  • Ahh the flip side is that nothing horrible lasts forever ......
    Have you ever played Scrabble with a ninety year old?

    I have, and she usually kicks my ass!

  • Ahh the flip side is that nothing horrible lasts forever ......
    Have you ever played Scrabble with a ninety year old?

    I have, and she usually kicks my ass!

    Same here.. :o
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    hopeful in that painful moments will pass, nothing is fixed or permanent.
    @weighted -- No disrespect intended, but how does hoping that painful moments will pass differ from hoping that pleasant moments will remain? Same stuff, different day, don't you think?

    And still things don't last.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    Why, with all the evidence available, am I not laughing and at ease? What's the matter with the truth?

    What's the matter with the truth? I think that's the wrong question. I think a better questions is what's the matter with me not being able to see the truth. The truth itself is not impermanent because it is "unconstructed". A truth that does not last isn't actually the truth but rather just an idea of it. And because ideas are impermanent, that idea of truth is also impermanent. But the truth itself is the only thing that does not pass away, even though it can not rightly be called a "thing". IMO

    :)
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2012
    The truth itself is not impermanent because it is "unconstructed".

    whoa nelly!!.. Aint that when Suen Saung says "do nothing I'll whack ya ... do something I'll whack ya"? (paraphrasing ofcourse)
    :aol:
  • In the 'good moments' enjoy them as they are, the memory of them will never be the same as the experience. And holding onto them prevents us from experiencing new moments as they arise.

    In the 'bad moments' do not cling to this lasting forever. Also experience them as they are and do not avoid the feelings as having an aversion to them will make them last longer and prevent us from experiencing new moments as they arise
  • hopeful in that painful moments will pass, nothing is fixed or permanent.
    @weighted -- No disrespect intended, but how does hoping that painful moments will pass differ from hoping that pleasant moments will remain? Same stuff, different day, don't you think?

    And still things don't last.
    I don't think there's a difference, except (at least for me right now) the painful moments are harder to cope with or realize there's an end in sight.

    I do think that meditation and being more mindful has allowed the happier moments to last longer than the painful moments. Letting go, letting go.
  • And what @AHeerdt just said better than I could. :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Constant change is here to stay.
    and the tune to "Happy days are here again!" just played in my head.....

    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.....

  • ZeroZero Veteran
    What's the matter with the truth?
    Anything other than a digital (1-0) answer causes anxiety... the more we realise that any truth is likely to be fuzzy, the more anxious we become.
  • Of all the teachings in the dharma, the teaching of impermanence has come quite easy to me, quite easy to understand and impliment in my life. I have always been quite 'slap-dash' with material things and have been put down for not taking care of things in my younger years. But I have lost a lot along the way and I guess I have just gotten use to it. When I lost my apple macbook and 900 pounds I was not too down about, I even laughed at one point and came to the conclusion, 'owel'

  • Why, with all the evidence available, am I not laughing and at ease? What's the matter with the truth?

    What's the matter with the truth? I think that's the wrong question. I think a better questions is what's the matter with me not being able to see the truth. The truth itself is not impermanent because it is "unconstructed". A truth that does not last isn't actually the truth but rather just an idea of it. And because ideas are impermanent, that idea of truth is also impermanent. But the truth itself is the only thing that does not pass away, even though it can not rightly be called a "thing". IMO

    :)
    If that's really your opinion and not something you were told can you tell us how you arrived at this opinion?
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited March 2012
    The truth itself is not impermanent because it is "unconstructed".

    whoa nelly!!.. Aint that when Suen Saung says "do nothing I'll whack ya ... do something I'll whack ya"? (paraphrasing ofcourse)
    :aol:
    Of course, but he wacks you no matter what you say so it's a no-win situation there. Precisely as he intends it to be! Ha! :lol:


    If that's really your opinion and not something you were told can you tell us how you arrived at this opinion?
    I get it from reading the scriptures about the "unconstructed, unfabricated", the truth", etc, etc.


    There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.Ud 8.3
    This thing that he is talking about, call it a thing for the sake of grammar, can't be impermanent precisely because it is unfabricated, unconstructed, to begin with. The Buddha only taught that the 5 aggregates is what is impermanent. The truth of the 3 marks of existence (anicca, dukkha, anattaa) has always been true and will always be true. These 3 marks of existence are a permanent truth regarding the 5 aggregates.
    Impermanent are all component things, They arise and cease, that is their nature: They come into being and pass away, Release from them is bliss supreme.DN 16
    So the truth is not a thing itself, but simply the true nature of these things. The nature of these things is that they are impermanent. The fact that all these things are impermanent, is what is permanent. Because these things can't be any other way, they have never been any other way and never will be any other way. We might think they are some other way but according to the Buddha, that is delusion. So what is permanent is not "some thing" but simply the nature of things in that all of them always have been and always will be impermanent, permanently. That is what I get from it. :)
    "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
    The "dimension of the Deathless" is not subject to impermanence because that dimension is unoriginated, but it's not just "nothing". The Buddha speaks as if it is something that can be known and experienced.
    "Monks, that dimension should be known where the eye (vision) stops and the perception (mental noting) of form fades. That dimension should be known where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That dimension should be known."
    — SN 35.117
    That dimension is the dimension of truth and because it is unoriginated, it is not subject to impermanence. However, to even call it an "it" would be incorrect but for the sake of communicating with language, you kinda have to call it something.

    Does any of that make any sense?
    :lol:
  • Not at all, but I now believe that it is your opinion.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited March 2012
    Not at all, but I now believe that it is your opinion.
    I'm sure many other hold the same opinion .:) Just because that is what the scriptures say. :) The Buddha never taught that everything is impermanent, but just conditioned things.

  • You don't trust your own experience?
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Ahh the flip side is that nothing horrible lasts forever either. We can be stuck in the 'this will last' mode either way.
    She's so sharp, this AHeerdt!
    Have you ever played Scrabble with a ninety year old?
    I hate Scrabble! 90-year olds, I have no problem with. I've had several friends in their 80's--90's. They were all brilliant and very creative. The problem with 90-year-olds is that they tend to die. There's no escaping impermanence.

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    You don't trust your own experience?
    I was just saying it's not just my opinion but a fairly common one.

  • You don't trust your own experience?
    I was just saying it's not just my opinion but a fairly common one.

    Have you experienced permanence?
  • This thread really has taken a walk hasn't it lol.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    You don't trust your own experience?
    I was just saying it's not just my opinion but a fairly common one.

    Have you experienced permanence?
    The permanence of impermanence, yes.

  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2012
    The truth itself is not impermanent because it is "unconstructed".

    whoa nelly!!.. Aint that when Suen Saung says "do nothing I'll whack ya ... do something I'll whack ya"? (paraphrasing ofcourse)
    :aol:
    Of course, but he wacks you no matter what you say so it's a no-win situation there. Precisely as he intends it to be! Ha! :lol:

    Somehow have to say something... even though it is no win. The Dharma teacher with our local group likes to slap the floor.

    ..a friend calls speaking up "turd burglary"

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    what....
    does that mean taking the piss or talking crap?
  • I think he means picking through droppings.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    eeew!
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    "Turd burglary" ... what a great expression!
  • You don't trust your own experience?
    I was just saying it's not just my opinion but a fairly common one.

    Have you experienced permanence?
    The permanence of impermanence, yes.

    I imagine that impermanence is permanent even when you're not experiencing permanence?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    yeah, now move on.
  • Yes Ma'am. :)
  • "Turd burglary" ... what a great expression!
    image
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Oh my goodness - !

    you want it?
    the USA has got it somewhere - and if they ain't got it - they'll probably be able to get it!
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited March 2012
    The truth itself is not impermanent because it is "unconstructed".

    whoa nelly!!.. Aint that when Suen Saung says "do nothing I'll whack ya ... do something I'll whack ya"? (paraphrasing ofcourse)
    :aol:
    Of course, but he wacks you no matter what you say so it's a no-win situation there. Precisely as he intends it to be! Ha! :lol:

    Somehow have to say something... even though it is no win. The Dharma teacher with our local group likes to slap the floor.

    ..a friend calls speaking up "turd burglary"

    If one can figure out a way to talk without talking, I think that would pass the whack test, hehe.

    Reminds me of this:
    Nam Cheon Kills a Cat

    Once morning, the monks of the Eastern and Western halls were arguing about a cat. Hearing the loud dispute as he passed, Master Nam Cheon held up the cat in one hand and a knife in the other and shouted, “You! Give me one word and I will save this cat! If you cannot, I will kill it!” No one could answer. Finally, Nam Cheon cut the cat in two.

    In the evening, when Jo Ju returned from outside, Nam Cheon told him of the incident. Jo Ju took off his shoes, put them on his head, and walked away. Nam Cheon said, “Alas, if you had been there, I could have saved the cat.”

    1. Nam Cheon said, “Give me one word!” At that time, what can you do?

    2. Jo Ju put his shoe on his head. What does this mean?

    3. Why did Nam Choen kill the cat?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    He killed the fluffy orange kittens.
    Of the skin he made him mittens,
    Made them with the fur side inside,
    Made them with the skin side outside.
    He, to get the warm side inside,
    Put the inside skin side outside.
    He, to get the cold side outside,
    Put the warm side fur side inside.
    That's why he put the fur side inside,
    Why he put the skin side outside,
    Why he turned them inside outside.

    (After Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's "Hiawatha")

    author uncertain.
  • Wah, close your eyes Mitzi !
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited March 2012
    The truth itself is not impermanent because it is "unconstructed".

    whoa nelly!!.. Aint that when Suen Saung says "do nothing I'll whack ya ... do something I'll whack ya"? (paraphrasing ofcourse)
    :aol:
    Of course, but he wacks you no matter what you say so it's a no-win situation there. Precisely as he intends it to be! Ha! :lol:

    Somehow have to say something... even though it is no win. The Dharma teacher with our local group likes to slap the floor.

    ..a friend calls speaking up "turd burglary"

    If one can figure out a way to talk without talking, I think that would pass the whack test, hehe.

    Reminds me of this:
    Nam Cheon Kills a Cat

    Once morning, the monks of the Eastern and Western halls were arguing about a cat. Hearing the loud dispute as he passed, Master Nam Cheon held up the cat in one hand and a knife in the other and shouted, “You! Give me one word and I will save this cat! If you cannot, I will kill it!” No one could answer. Finally, Nam Cheon cut the cat in two.

    In the evening, when Jo Ju returned from outside, Nam Cheon told him of the incident. Jo Ju took off his shoes, put them on his head, and walked away. Nam Cheon said, “Alas, if you had been there, I could have saved the cat.”

    1. Nam Cheon said, “Give me one word!” At that time, what can you do?

    2. Jo Ju put his shoe on his head. What does this mean?

    3. Why did Nam Choen kill the cat?
    The answer to this koan is as follows..... A monk with a clear head speaks up.. " Master Nam Cheon PUT THE CAT DOWN NOW .......and we will bicker."
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