What Churches Work? Progressive Christianity

Dakini

I've been hearing about some unusual Christian churches or denominations lately. Bekenze said the United Church of Christ was very inclusive and liberal. I looked it up, and their motto is: "Jesus didnt' exclude anyone, we don't either".

AHeerdt is going to an amazing Church, St. Paul's of Denver, that refers to itself as: a United Methodist, Reconciled, Buddhist-Christian InterSpiritual Community". Wow! They have a Tibetan lama who teaches meditation and Buddhist texts, a Native American spiritual leader, an (East) Indian yogi, several women priests, -- a dizzying diversity of spiritual traditions. They're offering a workshop on : "Homosexuality and the Bible: God's Message of Love and Inclusion for All People". The church takes an activist approach to countering hate with education and compassion.

Several people recommend the Unitarian Universalists, who also are very inclusive of Buddhists and people from other spiritual traditions.

Do you know of any Christian Churches that are doing good work, and welcome all people and creeds? Share your experience of a progressive, or even radical Christianity with us.

http://www.stpauldenver.com/index.html?vm=r

Bekenze

Well, my significant other attends the United Church of Christ, even though she is not a Christian. The pastor is a very nice man. He asked me if I wanted to be baptized and become a member of the church, and I declined, but he still seems happy whenever I come and always asks me to come back. He is also very theologically progressive. I'm always welcomed with warm greetings and handshakes there. The sermons seem to preach a good moral lesson, rather than just a religion specific one. An hour before the service there is always a Bible study/open discussion for people to debate/have conversation about religious related topics. In fact, sometimes the pastor will have a comparative religion get together which involves other religions. He even has a Qu'ran in the church.

I like the church because everyone seems very happy, welcoming, and their beliefs are very progressive compared to more mainstream denominations.

Also: The pastor has suggested that one day he will take the younger members of the church (the kids) to other religious institutions, to allow them to experience other religions. He wants to take them to a mosque, a synagogue, a Catholic church, and maybe a Buddhist temple (although I don't know of any around here). Although, he has yet to actually follow through with this. I think..

Dakini

You're a member of the congregation just by showing up. You don't need to be baptized. It sounds like a great place. Congrats on finding it, and thanks for sharing.

Invincible_summer

The United Church of Canada is probably similar to the United Church of Christ. A couple of my friends attend, and they're very liberal. They even state that the Bible is better suited as a collection of stories that we can learn from than actual historical fact.

Another progressive Christian that I have lots of respect for is (ex?)Bishop John Shelby Spong (Episcopal Anglican):

ThailandTom

This all seems very promising indeed. However await the recoil of the hardcore christians, if that has not already happened that is..

federica

Church isn't building.
church is people.
And people is people wherever you go.
I've been in plenty of 'churches' in my lifetime, and one catholic church is completely different to another....

Dakini

However await the recoil of the hardcore christians, if that has not already happened that is..

There's nothing they can do. They seem to be putting their energy into ranting on talk radio, and voting arch-conservatives into office, not attacking other churches. On rare occasion, a liberal church that welcomes the LGBT community sees a feeble protest march in front of it, but it's ignored, and nothing ever comes of it.

vinlyn

However await the recoil of the hardcore christians, if that has not already happened that is..

There's nothing they can do. They seem to be putting their energy into ranting on talk radio, and voting arch-conservatives into office, not attacking other churches. On rare occasion, a liberal church that welcomes the LGBT community sees a feeble protest march in front of it, but it's ignored, and nothing ever comes of it.

I agree. I live in Colorado Springs, which is sort of a Bible belt of evangelicals. But here, at least, it's pretty much live and let live, and there are a number of very progressive churches here.

genkaku

A friend of mine, an UU minister and Zen roshi, once wrote to me in some exasperation after I pestered him once too often about Christianity. He wrote, tersely, "Christianity is fundamentally flawed." At the time, I was a bit shocked. Like anyone else, I knew loving, devout, educated and compassionate Christians. And still do.

But a bit at a time, I have come to credit his evaluation. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me. It is just my taste. Nice people are nice. Flawed philosophies are flawed. No big deal.

The flaw that I find is important to me because I think spiritual endeavor at its best invites individuals to flower with a completeness that cannot be accomplished in the realm of self and other. The separation of God from man, good from evil, tall from short, tears from laughter, heaven from hell ... it all makes OK sense intellectually or emotionally. Hopes and beliefs can flourish in such a garden. Common sense prevails ... but only up to the point that experience kicks in. In experience, there is no dualism, just as there is no monism. There is no separation and no lack of separation.

All this is not something to believe. It is not something to make a big deal about. It is not my way of subtly dissing a Christian approach. It is just my approach. I dislike the proposition that individuals can go so far and no further, that the foundations of this life could or must depend on some sort of psychological relief or warming hug. Anyone can ask for or receive a hug ... it's loving and lovely. But to rest on such a foundation is to risk a disappointment that is profound and misguided.

The wholeness (for lack of a better word) that anyone might seek does not lie within the walls of something called Christianity any more than it lies within the walls of something called Buddhism. Still, if I have to pick some walls to live within, I would choose something akin to Buddhism because the door that is marked "entrance" on one side is boldly marked "exit" on the other. Such a door is my idea of an adult spiritual persuasion. As Rinzai once observed, "Grasp and use, but never name."

Use the entrance.

Use the exit.

That is enough.

As I say ... no disrespect or salesmanship from here. Just a small afternoon rant.

zombiegirl

It has occurred to me that no matter how good the church, I just cannot connect with the bible anymore. What @genkaku said about it being fundamentally flawed made a lot of sense to me. Once I let go of the dogma side of Christianity and laid the beliefs out on the table, they just didn't seem all that helpful to me anymore.

Last night, my girlfriend and I were having dinner with her family and her nephew was saying 'grace'. It was a variation on the whole, "God is good, God is great, etc." simple children's version, but it caught me off guard (plus the way he said it was preempted with the most hilarious sigh at having to do this) and I laughed out loud, only catching myself slightly. I couldn't help it though, I find her nephew to be the most sarcastic, hilarious, little brat (I mean this affectionately), lol. My girlfriend's mother was like, "In case there was any doubt what a Heathen you are..." Haha! Whoops. I actually think she might have semi-meant it as a joke, but like most of her jokes... served with a side of truth and maybe a sharp jab in the kidney area. But at least she knows, eh?

Thao

i reather like philip gulley's form of liberal quakerism.

Dakini

i reather like philip gulley's form of liberal quakerism.

Can you tell us more about it?

It has occurred to me that no matter how good the church, I just cannot connect with the bible anymore.

I feel the same about the God "thing", and Jesus as Divine or semi-Divine. That's what interested me about these progressive churches. Some of them focus on the apocryphal Gospels, which is really interesting, and doesn't involve belief in Jesus as Divine. Many of these churches include all spiritual traditions: Native American, Islam, Buddhism, aspects of Hinduism. So they're places where you can find relief from the Bible. This intrigues me.

Thao

I was interested in liberal quakerism once. Here is what I found:


Belief in Deity
Diverse beliefs, from belief in a personal God as an incorporeal spirit to questioning belief in a personal God.


Incarnations
Beliefs vary from the literal to the symbolic belief in Jesus Christ as God's incarnation. Most believe we are all sons and daughters of God, with the main focus on experiencing and listening to God, the Light within, accessible to all.

Origin of Universe and Life
Emphasis is placed on spiritual truths as revealed to each individual. Many believe that God created/controls all events/processes that modern scientists are uncovering about origins. Many believe in scientific accounts alone or don't profess to know.


After Death
Few liberal Quakers believe in direct reward and punishment, heaven and hell, or second coming of Christ. The primary focus is nondogmatic: God is love, love is eternal, and our actions in life should reflect love for all of humanity.


Why Evil?
Beliefs vary, as the focus is not on why, but how to eliminate wrongs, especially violence. Many believe that violence against another human is violence against God. Many Quakers believe that lack of awareness of God's divine Light within all may result in wrongdoing. Many believe that evil is simply an unfortunate part of human nature that we all must work to eliminate.


Salvation
Beliefs are diverse, as dogma is de-emphasized. Most believe that all will be saved because God is good and forgiving, and the divine Light of God is available to all. Good works, especially social work and peace efforts, are viewed as integral to the salvation of humanity, regardless of belief or nonbelief in an afterlife.


Undeserving Suffering
Liberal Quakers do not believe that Satan causes suffering. Some believe suffering is part of God's plan, will, or design, even if we don't immediately understand it. Some don't believe in any spiritual reasons for suffering. Quakers focus on reducing human suffering, especially that which is caused by social injustice or violence.


Contemporary Issues
Views vary, some maintaining that abortion violates Quaker commitment to nonviolence, but some view the right to choose abortion as an aspect of equal rights for women and/or as a personal matter between the woman and God. The American Friends Service Committee (an independent Quaker organization with participants of many faiths, which provides international programs for economic and social justice, peace, humanitarian aid) supports the woman’s right to choose abortion according to her own conscience.

Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/06/What-Liberal-Quakers-Believe.aspx#ixzz1p7IlqhHa

B5C

The strangest thing about Christians is that liberal Christians, Conservatives Christians, and fundamentalist Christians believe in the same god and that god has the same views as them. I can respect liberal Christians, but as Christians as a whole. I can not really say I will support you fully. I view Liberal Christians as a usefully ally only temporary.

Invincible_summer

The strangest thing about Christians is that liberal Christians, Conservatives Christians, and fundamentalist Christians believe in the same god and that god has the same views as them.

Not really... they all have differing views on what god does/has done/commands, etc. That's why there are different groups.

Fundies say that God will punish all homosexuals. Liberal Christians don't say that. Does it sound like the same god?

I can respect liberal Christians, but as Christians as a whole. I can not really say I will support you fully. I view Liberal Christians as a usefully ally only temporary.

Temporarily? And then what?

KnightofBuddha

I flirted with a few brands of Christianity years back. A number of highly inclusive, non-judgmental, non-denominational churches. Mostly, I was following various women to these places, and there was no avoiding attending with them at some point. So I did.

To put it bluntly, I was never too impressed. Although I am not Christian, I preferred to at least attend the more hell-concerned fire and brimstone sermons. The fluffy progressive churches were vague and demanded nothing of attendees other than "love God." Well sorry, that's hardly enough to sustain a civil society. Being a good or decent person was never spoken about. But "praise Jesus."

I don't know, if that's your thing I guess. To me, the point of religion was to tell people how to live to maintain good order, society, morals, and in pursuit of an afterlife at its bare bones. To simply "accept" every sort of sin and behavior I indulge in and expect nothing out of attendees...was simply a waste of time. So I stopped attending altogether.

That, and the churches I've attended over the years were far more concerned with parochial, social matters than calling attention to the genocide being committed against their fellow Christians around the world.

Dakini

Oboy--let's go to church to talk about genocide against our kind by people of other creeds. So uplifting and inspiring. What if all religions did this? Can you imagine what kind of a world we'd be living in? Isn't this part of the problem in some parts of the world? Young people being indoctrinated to hate?

zombiegirl

To put it bluntly, I was never too impressed. Although I am not Christian, I preferred to at least attend the more hell-concerned fire and brimstone sermons. The fluffy progressive churches were vague and demanded nothing of attendees other than "love God." Well sorry, that's hardly enough to sustain a civil society. Being a good or decent person was never spoken about. But "praise Jesus."

You're just like my girlfriend, lol. A few years back, she was struggling with being kicked out of her church and the feelings of the very public shaming she received and so I took her to the church I used to go to in my teens.

I used to go to Mars Hill, which some of you might be aware of because my old pastor Rob Bell recently stirred up a bunch of fundamentalist Christians by saying that perhaps you don't have to be "saved" to go to Heaven with his book "Love Wins" (The Heretical Rob Bell and Why Love Wins)
So I thought, perhaps she would be comforted by a more compassion focused church? Nope. She pretty much just said that she felt like they were a bunch of wusses and that she missed the fire and brimstone. Heh...

As a side note about Mars Hill, they really do seem to live more like Jesus taught. That was always my impression. The title of his book, "love wins" was the slogan of the church and was pretty much Rob's primary message. No matter what disagreements we might have, love wins. However, despite all of the sermons I attended, all of the searching I did online, I could never find any sort of hardcore statement from him regarding topics like homosexuality... and that sort of bothered me. I can remember in one sermon he said, "If your neighbor is gay... or a different religion... love wins!" So I know he doesn't actively support condemnation, but I really wished he would go on the record saying it's okay, not just "love the sinner, hate the sin." But it's just wishful thinking, perhaps...

Lady_Alison

It has occurred to me that no matter how good the church, I just cannot connect with the bible anymore. What @genkaku said about it being fundamentally flawed made a lot of sense to me. Once I let go of the dogma side of Christianity and laid the beliefs out on the table, they just didn't seem all that helpful to me anymore

I couldn't connect with any church, honestly and neither the way they taught.

I decided the best approach was on my own...reading the bible cover to cover with a guide...learning the histories and alternative histories.. and also, archeology.

History has always been fascinating and so have the stories of the bible...there is sooo much drama. Most of our contemporary work has been copied from those stories.

Invincible_summer

I flirted with a few brands of Christianity years back. A number of highly inclusive, non-judgmental, non-denominational churches. Mostly, I was following various women to these places, and there was no avoiding attending with them at some point. So I did.

To put it bluntly, I was never too impressed. Although I am not Christian, I preferred to at least attend the more hell-concerned fire and brimstone sermons. The fluffy progressive churches were vague and demanded nothing of attendees other than "love God." Well sorry, that's hardly enough to sustain a civil society. Being a good or decent person was never spoken about. But "praise Jesus."

I don't know, if that's your thing I guess. To me, the point of religion was to tell people how to live to maintain good order, society, morals, and in pursuit of an afterlife at its bare bones. To simply "accept" every sort of sin and behavior I indulge in and expect nothing out of attendees...was simply a waste of time. So I stopped attending altogether.

That, and the churches I've attended over the years were far more concerned with parochial, social matters than calling attention to the genocide being committed against their fellow Christians around the world.

Weird. Most progressive/left-of-centre churches/church-goers that I know of are very involved in social justice and emphasize modelling oneself after Jesus, not just "do whatever you want but remember to love Jesus."

See the Spong videos I posted earlier. I would definitely think that that's pushing for a better world.

Dakini

I've never been to any church that ever said "love Jesus", "love God", or "praise Jesus". Nor was that ever said in Sunday school. That sounds more like the fundie churches. "Bless God" did come up in hymns.

B5C

Temporarily? And then what?

Religion is always about control.

Invincible_summer

I've never been to any church that ever said "love Jesus", "love God", or "praise Jesus". Nor was that ever said in Sunday school. That sounds more like the fundie churches. "Bless God" did come up in hymns.

I grew up in a Baptist church (the only church in Canada AFAIK that is affiliated with the conservative and dominantly American Southern Baptist Convention), and although it was fairly conservative, it was by no means fundie. They did a lot of the "love Jesus" "praise Jesus" "thanks to Jesus" stuff a lot.

Temporarily? And then what?

Religion is always about control.

Your answer is still cryptic/vague.

Dakini

@Invincible_summer Good point. Everything is relative. I tend to lump Southern Baptists in with the fundamentalists (in fact, Jimmy Carter and his wife left their Baptist church, because they said it made a sudden turn toward fundamentalism), when in fact, some may not be. Are they part of the evangelical movement? I'm not sure how we're defining "fundamentalist". What about those churches with the snake handlers, and speaking in tongues? All of it seems pretty exotic to someone whose only exposure to Christianity was an occasional visit to a sedate Episcopalian service.

Invincible_summer

@Invincible_summer Good point. Everything is relative. I tend to lump Southern Baptists in with the fundamentalists (in fact, Jimmy Carter and his wife left their Baptist church, because they said it made a sudden turn toward fundamentalism), when in fact, some may not be. Are they part of the evangelical movement? I'm not sure how we're defining "fundamentalist". What about those churches with the snake handlers, and speaking in tongues? All of it seems pretty exotic to someone whose only exposure to Christianity was an occasional visit to a sedate Episcopalian service.

Ahhh yeah... Episcopal churches are pretty chill. Some pretty liberal too. And I do believe that Baptists consider themselves Evangelicals.

I would define "fundamentalist" religious groups as those who are dogmatic in their belief that their scriptures are infallible and to be read literally, and that their beliefs are the only correct ones (no interfaith dialogue here!).

I think the snake handling churches are pretty niche, but the tongue-speaking ones are Pentecostal churches which are, from my experience, also quite Evangelical and conservative.

But yes, I do agree that it's hard to see where "conservative" ends and "fundamentalist" begins.

KnightofBuddha

I was surprised growing up at how liberal the Catholic Church actually is. I mean it is conservative in the sense of morality; definition of marriage, abortion, homosexuality. But for the most part, was otherwise really big into social justice. I remember having read Frederich Hayek and a little Adam Smith in school, and was shocked when I brought it up to theology teachers and they were adamantly opposed to traditional capitalism. Some of the teachers were outright socialists.

An anomaly for sure, but knowing a lot of Catholics over the years, they tend to be of a more liberal variety.

AMH

Most of the Catholics I know who stay in the church despite their own liberal views are there for the tradition and ceremony. I actually really like that style of service, the incense and the kneeling. Kneeling to me is rather meditative.

vinlyn

I was surprised growing up at how liberal the Catholic Church actually is. I mean it is conservative in the sense of morality; definition of marriage, abortion, homosexuality. But for the most part, was otherwise really big into social justice. I remember having read Frederich Hayek and a little Adam Smith in school, and was shocked when I brought it up to theology teachers and they were adamantly opposed to traditional capitalism. Some of the teachers were outright socialists.

An anomaly for sure, but knowing a lot of Catholics over the years, they tend to be of a more liberal variety.

I would say the formal Catholic church is not liberal at all. But the Catholic laity is much more liberal, in the sense that they pretty much believe and do what they want to do, despite what the Pope or Bishop or Priest may say.

Invincible_summer

keep in mind there are Roman Catholics (who view the Pope as the head of the Catholic church, follow his decrees, etc), and "other" Catholics who don't support the Vatican.

federica

I would say the formal Catholic church is not liberal at all. But the Catholic laity is much more liberal, in the sense that they pretty much believe and do what they want to do, despite what the Pope or Bishop or Priest may say.

keep in mind there are Roman Catholics (who view the Pope as the head of the Catholic church, follow his decrees, etc), and "other" Catholics who don't support the Vatican.

both QFT