Why do monks in many Discourses call Buddha Lord?

DaltheJigsaw

Why do monks in many Discourses call Buddha Lord?

DaltheJigsaw

Endearment?

Victorious

Well I do not think they call him Lord exactly. I do not know the exact word in Pali or Sanscrit you are referring to but there are a lot of honorific words in India to denote a person you feel admiration or respect for.

The word Lord has a negative undertone to it since it imply medieval athority. Something that nowaday people look down upon. In contrast the honorific words used in say Sri Lanka does not have that negative undertone.

Why the translator chose that word I do not know.

I think the term Venerable is more appropriate.

/Victor

Bekenze

Probably the same reason we call the Dalai Lama "His Holiness."

DaltheJigsaw

Well I do not think they call him Lord exactly. I do not know the exact word in Pali or Sanscrit you are referring to but there are a lot of honorific words in India to denote a person you feel admiration or respect for.

The word Lord has a negative undertone to it since it imply medieval athority. Something that nowaday people look down upon. In contrast the honorific words used in say Sri Lanka does not have that negative undertone.

Why the translator chose that word I do not know.

I think the term Venerable is more appropriate.

/Victor

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.130.than.html

DaltheJigsaw

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. There the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Monks."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

DaltheJigsaw

Probably the same reason we call the Dalai Lama "His Holiness."

Hmm..Holiness is one thing, but Lord? isn't that calling him GOD? They called Buddha Holiness too actually.

DaltheJigsaw

Well I do not think they call him Lord exactly. I do not know the exact word in Pali or Sanscrit you are referring to but there are a lot of honorific words in India to denote a person you feel admiration or respect for.

The word Lord has a negative undertone to it since it imply medieval athority. Something that nowaday people look down upon. In contrast the honorific words used in say Sri Lanka does not have that negative undertone.

Why the translator chose that word I do not know.

I think the term Venerable is more appropriate.

/Victor

Thank you! That does make sense, most of the discourses I have seen seem to use Lord. Perhaps, it is the translations like you stated.

Victorious

In my language that has some things in common with sanscrit (and pali). There is no appropriate word for Lord. The closest I can think of is Mahateya. Which could mean Mr as well as Lord. A king is a Raja and an emporer is a MahaRaja. Maha just means big. There are words for like barons and stuff but again the translation is not clearcut.

And then there are lot of word for Holy people. But you never call a Monk Mahataya. So the translation awades me. But do not take my word for it I am lousy at sanskrit and Pali.


/Victor

DaltheJigsaw

In my language that has some things in common with sanscrit (and pali). There is no appropriate word for Lord. The closest I can think of is Mahateya. Which could mean Mr as well as Lord. A king is a Raja and an emporer is a MahaRaja. Maha just means big. There are words for like barons and stuff but again the translation is not clearcut.

And then there are lot of word for Holy people. But you never call a Monk Mahataya. So the translation awades me. But do not take my word for it I am lousy at sanskrit and Pali.


/Victor

Thanks! That helped a lot!

ZenBadger

Don't forget that even the Christian term "Lord" is just a translator's choice, the actual Hebrew term for god is much more complicated than that. When you translate a text you have to make choices based on your audience and being sensitive to the document you are translating. Early biblical translators used a term that made sense in Greek, then Latin and later on in modern european languages such as English. In each case the correct Hebrew term was translated into something intelligible to the reader at the time. When the descendents of these people came to translate scriptures from other cultures (mainly in the C19th and C20th) they used the conventions familiar to them and their audience. Early translations use far less Pali/Sanskrit/other than modern scholarly translations and reading some of them you might be forgiven for thinking you were reading a lost book of the bible!

bodhipunk

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.130.than.html

The word translated as "lord" and "blessed one" here is bhagavato and bhagavā. They both come from "bhaga" meaning "fortune, wealth, patron, excellence, etc". It's just a title of veneration and admiration as @Victorious pointed out, and other translations could be "worthy one, exalted one, venerable, holy one, etc."

Victorious

I just spoke to my mom and she says what @bodhipunk says. Some of the titles of the Gotama is Bhagva, Arahat (one without defilements) and also Samma Sambuddha. The most knowleadgeble one or something like that.

The word Mahateya is a latter creation to mimic the meaning of the english 'sir'. So thats why it felt as it fitted the bill.


/Victor

DaltheJigsaw

Don't forget that even the Christian term "Lord" is just a translator's choice, the actual Hebrew term for god is much more complicated than that. When you translate a text you have to make choices based on your audience and being sensitive to the document you are translating. Early biblical translators used a term that made sense in Greek, then Latin and later on in modern european languages such as English. In each case the correct Hebrew term was translated into something intelligible to the reader at the time. When the descendents of these people came to translate scriptures from other cultures (mainly in the C19th and C20th) they used the conventions familiar to them and their audience. Early translations use far less Pali/Sanskrit/other than modern scholarly translations and reading some of them you might be forgiven for thinking you were reading a lost book of the bible!

That was helpful!:) Thanks!

DaltheJigsaw

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.130.than.html

The word translated as "lord" and "blessed one" here is bhagavato and bhagavā. They both come from "bhaga" meaning "fortune, wealth, patron, excellence, etc". It's just a title of veneration and admiration as @Victorious pointed out, and other translations could be "worthy one, exalted one, venerable, holy one, etc."

Cinorjer

Isn't Lord as a choice of translation simply a word that has shifted in meaning since peerage has disappeared as the common social rank. A "Lord" was someone you owed allegiance to. If you were a serf or member of a Baron's estate, he was refered to as my Lord, not "my Baron", etc. Original meaning did not mean divine.

DaltheJigsaw

Isn't Lord as a choice of translation simply a word that has shifted in meaning since peerage has disappeared as the common social rank. A "Lord" was someone you owed allegiance to. If you were a serf or member of a Baron's estate, he was refered to as my Lord, not "my Baron", etc. Original meaning did not mean divine.

Ahh! This reminds me of Shakespearean times.

Ada_B

Surprisingly enough, they didn't speak English, so it is highly unlikely they called him 'Lord'. I am assuming you are American or from one of the other 'colonies' Here in UK, judges are called "My lord", and so are peers of the realm e.g. Lord Prescott. It is an honorific title and I assume that the translators of the Buddhist texts felt that "Lord" was the closest title.

It's all very culturally specific. After all, in USA you call the president "Mr President", which to my British ears sounds a little bit like you think 'President' is his surname. I wonder what term they would have used for the Buddha had they been 21st century Americans? Mr Buddha? Mr Enlightened One? But as my Zen friends would point out, words are very poor indicators of meaning.

Jason

In both Buddhism and Jainism, the term bhagava — often translated as 'lord' but literally meaning 'possessing fortune' or 'blessed' — is a title of veneration, signifying someone with extraordinary qualities, incomparable virtue, wisdom, etc.

I personally think 'blessed one' is a better translation in this context than 'lord,' although 'sublime one,' 'exalted one,' and 'venerable one' are also good.

DaltheJigsaw

Surprisingly enough, they didn't speak English, so it is highly unlikely they called him 'Lord'. I am assuming you are American or from one of the other 'colonies' Here in UK, judges are called "My lord", and so are peers of the realm e.g. Lord Prescott. It is an honorific title and I assume that the translators of the Buddhist texts felt that "Lord" was the closest title.

It's all very culturally specific. After all, in USA you call the president "Mr President", which to my British ears sounds a little bit like you think 'President' is his surname. I wonder what term they would have used for the Buddha had they been 21st century Americans? Mr Buddha? Mr Enlightened One? But as my Zen friends would point out, words are very poor indicators of meaning.

I am Russian/Ukrainian.

DaltheJigsaw

In both Buddhism and Jainism, the term bhagava — often translated as 'lord' but literally meaning 'possessing fortune' or 'blessed' — is a title of veneration, signifying someone with extraordinary qualities, incomparable virtue, wisdom, etc.

Ahh!

Lady_Alison

Only because you have a Christian idea of the word....think it's more out of respect than anything else.

Probably the same reason we call the Dalai Lama "His Holiness."

Hmm..Holiness is one thing, but Lord? isn't that calling him GOD? They called Buddha Holiness too actually.