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Gossip Chit-Chat
ThailandTom
Veteran
So the Buddha taught that is is unskillful to partake in the act of mindless gossip or chit-chat. Why exactly did he teach this? For some people, quite a lot of people, it is a way of starting a conversation or something they get right into when they come home. What are your thoughts on gossip? How is irt unskillful..
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And it depends on how you define "gossip". If that includes lies and slander, it's against one of the precepts. Some traditions interpret that precept to mean you shouldn't talk about other people at all, or not say anything negative about others.
"Evil Effect of Frivolous Talk" was one of the recent threads on the subject. On pg 2 of the main listings. I think there was another that had "Idle Chatter" in the heading.
There are some very excellent threads regarding buddhism on this site, but for the most part it is just senseless nattering by the same individuals over and over, that are completely non-constructive and without any thought.
With Metta
sometimes, right speech entails not saying anything derogatory or critical.
we're laypeople here, and the Buddha's Suttas almost always begin with "Monks!"
so frankly, while adherence to his teachings is of paramount importance to those who ordain, for laypeople, they are a guide.
People chat. People banter, people interact, people connect.
the members on this board are a mutually-supportive group, and we strengthen our bond by discussing everything and anything, without feeling we're contravening rigid rules or guidelines. Of which there are none.
you may not 'approve' but if that is the case - then you know what to do.
And if you can honestly tell me you do not indulge in idle banter, general discussion or occasional conversations and discussions with people which are nothing to do with Buddhism, then you have every right to find points to object to.
but i won't believe it for a second.
Namaste
right speech also entails appropriateness, phrase formation, tact, kindness and humility.
all of which were glaringly absent in your statement.
and that's the truth.
Being rude and making critical remarks may be your way of imparting your truth - but that kind of attitude isn't welcome here.
i can think of another forum where you would fit in perfectly.
but here - it's out of place, and not appreciated.
These aren't precepts, they aren't sins, they are actions which lead to suffering.
Gossip is viewed as negative because it encourages negative emotions and distracts one from the dharma.
Idle gossip isn't simply talking to people though. "Of course, we can engage in normal conversation, not necessarily motivated by attachment, desire anger, jealousy or hatred. That is not a negative. But engaging in meaningless talk, motivated by attachment, anger, hatred, jealousy, that is negative." So its like complaining about your coworker or bitching about the neighbor for letting his dog crap on your yard, that kind of stuff. It doesn't include asking your friend how his sick mom is or talking to your kid about how their day at school was.
This is a tonglen discipline and there are comments from masters such as Pema Chodron.
It came to Tibet as a student of Buddhism traveled to Indonesia. I am not sure 'what' drew them there? Anyhow they learned this from a teacher in Indonesia.
This person practiced this discipline in his home and his brother even took it up a person who was always difficult and there was so much improvement that he realized that many could benefit. Theres even reports that it helped Lepers to reverse the heart energy from breathing in goodness and breathing out pain to the opposite. This is how the heart is supposed to operate. I need to work on that. Someone gave me a mantra Sit Tar while putting palms together on the heart. I understand it as sitting with difficulties and opening to others.
Excerpts: It's beautiful really.
"So in a sense all the things taking place around us, all the irritations and all the problems, are crucial. Without others we cannot attain enlightenment - in fact, we cannot even tread on the path. In other words, we could say that if there is no noise outside during our sitting meditation, we cannot develop mindfulness... If everything were lovey-dovey and jellyfishlike, there would be nothing to work with.
We can write our own case history and employ our own lawyers to prove that we are right and somebody else is wrong - but that is also trouble we have to go through. And trying to prove our case history somehow doesn't work. In any case, hiring a lawyer to attain enlightenment is not done. It is not possible. Buddha did not have a lawyer himself.
Without others, we would have no chance at all to develop beyond ego. So the idea here is to feel grateful that others are presenting us with tremendous obstacles -even threats and challenges. The point is to appreciate that. Without them, we could not follow the path at all."
TR
Only speaking for myself I find that when I have very general things to talk about I appreciate this group because I don't need to explain my generally positive outlook, or an attempt at a neutral outlook on something that could be negative. I have found in other sites and with friends or coworkers sometimes the responses are negative or more of a 'me first' attitude. It is refreshing to be in a place where we are all striving towards the 8 fold path as we plant seeds, have an argument with a friend, struggle with job or home loss, or just have a good day. Nowhere else can I say 'this felt bad, and I will not cling' as well as 'this felt good, I will not cling'. Or to be aware of how we do not need to protect ourselves or build up our ego by standing up for ourselves in situations it will just cause more conflict.
So that is my opinion, plus I just as much as possible 'do' buddhism but sometimes my head hurts talking about it.
Sorry for that rant, anyway maybe @vinlyn can comment on the Thai culture about how they love to gossip, I thought people in the west loved to, but here it is like a sport.
Anyway, next month I am taking that trip to cambodia with my partner and then the month after we plan to move there as I can then actually work as they do not have all of these laws and restrictions against white people working in 90% of the jobs!
It feels euphoric and you get a little rush of emotions as you tell the bit of gossip, followed by laughter or whatever emotions it's suppose to birth...but then after it wears off, you're left with a feeling of regret and I always wonder if I went too far.
So on one hand it sort of brings a sense of bonding but on the other hand...you feel bad.
You need to be careful what you say.
@Lady_Alison I'm sure you also get a sense of bonding by sharing other experiences, so this is the difficulty, trying to find a way to bond without the negativity of gossip.
i'm just a very slow learner. but you are spot on on what you said, my friend.
why, you think it's normal, @vinlyn ?
Actually I have to admit you're pretty well grounded and one of my very favorite posters!
Have you ever really felt like you were doing something right in a relationship for example... such as a friendship and then like a year later your friend tells you that she is hurt by something you say...or perhaps she think you, or me in this case...that i'm too selfish?
that's been my experience. I think that people lie to themselves all the time. they sort of pave their own road to hell with good intentions... not that i'm trying to compare myself to hitler, for instance... but this man probably had some good intention or good thinking in the begining and REALLY REALLY believed that he was doing the right thing.
perhaps one of the most dangerous things that the mind does, if you let it...is that it causes you to BELIEVE some of the BULLSHIT you think and feel....i call it delusional thinking and we all feel prey to it.
but trying to tie it in with gossip...you might actually BELIEVE that the natters are a way to bond and express friendship and all that stuff... it's probably worse with a group of women.. man, can we cluck cluck cluck
But the REALITY is that in my case, i've said somethings that have been jokingly at the time and then i was taken aside by a friend and in tears, she told me what i said was actually hurtful... you see.
But the most difficult relationship I ever had was my Thai significant other. The Thais are great at gossiping, as Tom mentioned, but they're terrible at letting them know what's really on their minds. There is a conscious effort to not be unpleasant to the extreme. So you never really know what they're actually thinking. They never want to talk things over, and will often respond with, "You tink too mutt." I'll take a little gossip any day. And BTW, that going to extremes to protect the other person's feelings is related directly to Buddhism and the concept of "map pben rai".
but when i get angry, everything that comes out is one sided.
i hate that... the great and worst thing about spanish people is that we almost always say exactly what is on our mind...we just let it rip!
in buddhism, you have to protect the other person's feelings no matter what? what if there is no other way but to have to hurt their feelings to make them realize they are delusional... such as me... man, i don't care if you hurt my feelings if you are telling me a truth about my character.... i had to find out how selfish i was from other people and how i can sometimes be self-centered and delusional.. it hurt like hell.. but i'm freaking grateful because i'm trying to work on that now.
Yes, my GF will just shut right up if she is angry and that at first is nice because I do not have to enter an argument, but then it does not resolve anything, so I try and dig it out lol. It is a cultural thing for sure.
@vinlyn you said that you speak pass-a-thai nit noi, so I guess that you don't realize how much these people love to gossip. It truley should be a national sport or something. I thought it was bad back home as people liked to have gossip behind people's backs etc, but here :eek:
@Telly03 I do not see any harm in just flicking through general banter. It is there for a reason and people can also switch it off so to speaj if they so wish. By the way. I hope you are doing okay and that your daughter is in a better place emotionally.
Good morning by the way, the clocks go forward tonight do they not?
My Italian ex-colleagues may not remember this, being largely foreign and unable to read British material.... so it's possible they'll all get to work an hour late tomorrow...
If you've been given a really juicy piece of information, and someone comes up to you and asks you to -
"Come on... spill the beans....!"
whisper conspiratorially;
"Can you keep a secret...?"
Invariably, they'll reply, in their eagerness...."Yes......?"
And so you say.....
"....so can I!"
and walk off....!
I've actually done this - it feels really great!