What happens to the animals

James0060

From what I understand the different worlds we are born into are different mind sets so the hell realm just means we experience pain, the human realm we are neutral experiencing both good and bad, etc. If thats so where do the animals minds go and come from? If we can't possibly be born as animals during rebirth then where does the energy come from that creates the animals and where does it go?

happyjourney

The animal minds go too and come from a reactive process of the mind. For example anger arrises as a natural(animalistic) reaction to a situation or event. When anger fills your mind you are no longer 'you' in the sense that the anger has completely changed your thoughts and actions there after. So within this circumstance you have been reborn into an animal 'form' as you have reacted as an animal would.

caz

From what I understand the different worlds we are born into are different mind sets so the hell realm just means we experience pain, the human realm we are neutral experiencing both good and bad, etc. If thats so where do the animals minds go and come from? If we can't possibly be born as animals during rebirth then where does the energy come from that creates the animals and where does it go?

You have a serious misunderstanding you are just assuming rebirth is metaphorical which it is not.

mfranzdorf

From what I understand the different worlds we are born into are different mind sets so the hell realm just means we experience pain, the human realm we are neutral experiencing both good and bad, etc. If thats so where do the animals minds go and come from? If we can't possibly be born as animals during rebirth then where does the energy come from that creates the animals and where does it go?

Do you mean what happens to the energy from an animal when it dies? Are you asking how an animal ever leaves that realm?

zidangus

From what I understand the different worlds we are born into are different mind sets so the hell realm just means we experience pain, the human realm we are neutral experiencing both good and bad, etc.

This is one interpretation, there are other interpretations which say animal rebirth can be literal. So the life force within a persons body may end up in an animals body and an animals life force may end up in a humans body.

BoatS

From what I understand the different worlds we are born into are different mind sets so the hell realm just means we experience pain, the human realm we are neutral experiencing both good and bad, etc.

This is one interpretation, there are other interpretations which say animal rebirth can be literal. So the life force within a persons body may end up in an animals body and an animals life force may end up in a humans body.

I've always been curious how an animal is capable of rebirth? Humans are capable of making conscious decisions to create good karma - but how can an animal? They are reactionary beings. How can an animal rebirth into a human form?

WallyB

How can an animal rebirth into a human form?

Buddha taught animals gain human rebirth by realising the four noble truths. Metta

Those beings are few who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away from the animal realm, are reborn in hell.

For what reason? Because bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

SN 56.121

http://www.bhikkhu-revata-paauk.com/dhamma-books/Awaken_01_What-are-Humans-Doing.pdf

in this video we can watch an animal gain human rebirth

mfranzdorf

One belief is that a human is "working off" bad karma while in the literal animal realm.

person

I've always been curious how an animal is capable of rebirth? Humans are capable of making conscious decisions to create good karma - but how can an animal? They are reactionary beings. How can an animal rebirth into a human form?

The cause for a human rebirth is said to be ethical discipline.

I don't know if this is true but I try to train my pet to be well behaved, I'm hoping that her refraining from doing things I don't want her to do is the same and she's creating the karma for a good rebirth.

Also, a human rebirth is very hard to obtain for the simple fact that you stated above animals and even more so lower beings are heavily under the influence of their habits and compulsions.

James0060

I understand there are many other interpretations of the realms, and from what Ive read the Buddha said all animals are capable of reaching enlightenment. But that being said if you interpret it as being only a mental state and animals as a separate then where does their source of energy come and go if obviously it would have to be separate from the humans in this case.

person

I understand there are many other interpretations of the realms, and from what Ive read the Buddha said all animals are capable of reaching enlightenment. But that being said if you interpret it as being only a mental state and animals as a separate then where does their source of energy come and go if obviously it would have to be separate from the humans in this case.

In the scenario of karma being only psychological how is enlightenment interpreted? Also I don't then see how it could be possible for an animal to reach any kind of human-esque enlightenment.

And I'm not really sure what you mean by energy here. Are you talking about some kind of soul or spirtual essence?

RichardH

I am told that my dog does not have a frontal lobe on her brain... and therefore does not have the capacity to think... "hold on here;;;..do I really need to bark at this door?" Her restraint is trained and reflexive, not reflective... and that isn't about to change. On the upside she doesn't second guess herself, and always wholeheartedly throws herself into whatever she is doing .

... not sure what her rebirth prospects are.

Dakini

When the Buddha said animals can be reborn as humans, and visa versa, he didn't have in mind that the realms were mental states. He had in mind that they were true realms, "real" realms.

James0060

If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a single ripple or wave has a self.

So if the world were like an ocean and if it was a mental state then where would the animals pull their kinetic energy from, I'm not saying if I believe in solely mental or physical world.

mfranzdorf

From the same place we humans do, a place we don't know.

Cinorjer

This reincarnation up and down the realms and working off karma can also be seen as simply part of the cosmology that Buddhism sprang from, certainly not something that requires dogmatic belief simply because that's what the sutras say.

Come with me in a trip through time, to a few thousand years ago. You look around, and the assumption is that this world is designed for humans to live in. Common sense, logic, and your own eyes show this is beyond doubt. This is the human realm.

There are humans, and there are animals, and both behave certain ways and sometimes that animal behavior seems almost human. Animals have appetites, like humans, and we recognize emotions like anger and greed. Where do animals come from? We don't know. Where do humans come from? Don't know either. What is the connection between them? Not a clue. Does the animal serve a purpose in a world designed for humans? We're at a time when science doesn't even exist to begin to examine life and evolution.

But...everything exists because of human beings. The world is designed to serve us. So there is a human realm, and an animal realm, and the other realms serve us as humans.

So the great thinkers had a brilliant idea. A pig wallowing in the mud reminds us of certain people. A smug cat reminds us of some people. That's metaphor. But maybe it's more than that? Suppose the animals are us, reincarnated? Suppose that behavior that seems almost human is because it is a human mind in there? If so, it must be a punishment, because most animals live short, desperate lives of survival and suffering.

They had no idea that humans are just animals evolved into a bigger brain and consciousness, and what they were seeing is the common evolution of the brain, not some supernatural spirit hopping around.

An animal is not a human crammed into a tiny mind. Each animal is evolved into a form and function that serves its role in the ecology of the world. A pig is perfect in its pigness. A snake is perfect in its role as a snake. Animals are not suffering human beings working off bad karma. They have evolved over millions of years to be exactly what they are, just as we have done the same.

It is an egocentric picture of the vast universe to think animals are here as temporary hosts for human spirits as they move up and down the punishment and reward realms. But you don't need to see this as any more than what happens to all religions, that cosmologies get woven into the teachings as people try to make sense of the world as they know it. Just remember, it's not the same world as we know it today. We know what those tiny lights in the sky actually are, and we know this world we live in is not a "realm" but a planet among billions of planets.

And believe in multiple realms or not, Buddha's message of suffering and the elimination of suffering holds true here and now. All else is comment and guesswork.

person

If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a single ripple or wave has a self.

So if the world were like an ocean and if it was a mental state then where would the animals pull their kinetic energy from, I'm not saying if I believe in solely mental or physical world.

A karmic, volitional action doesn't have to be a thoughtful, concious choice. Even in humans we can see that many of our actions are simply instinctual reactions, they also have karma. What humans have the ability to do that animals don't is to short circuit that instinctual, reactive impulse through mindfulness and steer our actions in a different direction. So there's no reason that an animal would need to pull their kinetic energy from a different place than a human.

zidangus

I've always been curious how an animal is capable of rebirth? Humans are capable of making conscious decisions to create good karma - but how can an animal? They are reactionary beings. How can an animal rebirth into a human form?

Wiki has a good overview of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animals_in_Buddhism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)

and a good article here
http://www.buddhanet.net/deathtib.htm


"When a leaf falls off a tree and dies, it is replaced by a new leaf. That new leaf comes from the same essence as the old leaf, but they are not the same leaves. When humans and animals die, they are reborn. They will not be exactly the same entity when reborn, but they bring their stream of consciousness and karmic imprints with them to their new lives."

Talisman

Why do you assume you cannot be reborn as an animal? That is incorrect. Imagine a man who spends every day living like a dog. He eats without care, he doesnt care for personal hygiene or manners. He is promiscuous and has sex with multiple partners and is constantly seeking instant physical gratification.

He spends no time educating himself, or developing deeper mental faculties. He is already an animal. He has squandered the blessing of a human body and brain. He may not know what it means to be human at all.

When he dies and a dog is born contingent on the state of becoming arisen from his attachment, he will truly suffer the ills of the animal's existence, and will no longer have the faculties to escape his woeful condition.

zidangus

Also lets not forget that biologically speaking, humans are animals, just saying

Talisman

I would argue that although humans have bodies that can be scientifically classified as animal, the physiological and psychological advancements achieved through the processes of evolution have created a vast disparity between homo sapiens and ALL other animals on our planet.

Why? Because humans ate and destroyed every other animal on the planet that was anywhere near as intelligent as us.

Not to say that some animals aren't able to display or develop high levels of behavior and even thought processes, but they are nearly incomparable to human behavior and thought.

WallyB

Imagine a man who spends every day living like a dog. He eats without care, he doesnt care for personal hygiene or manners. He is promiscuous and has sex with multiple partners....

Buddha mentioned:

Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.009.irel.html

Cinorjer

Why do you assume you cannot be reborn as an animal? That is incorrect. Imagine a man who spends every day living like a dog. He eats without care, he doesnt care for personal hygiene or manners. He is promiscuous and has sex with multiple partners and is constantly seeking instant physical gratification.

He spends no time educating himself, or developing deeper mental faculties. He is already an animal. He has squandered the blessing of a human body and brain. He may not know what it means to be human at all.

When he dies and a dog is born contingent on the state of becoming arisen from his attachment, he will truly suffer the ills of the animal's existence, and will no longer have the faculties to escape his woeful condition.

Imagine a man with the loyalty and courage of a dog. Imagine a man with the sense of duty of a dog. Imagine a man who will risk his own life to protect the people he loves, like a dog. Imagine a man who knows how to live in the moment and relax and just enjoy life once in a while, like a dog. Imagine a man who judges you not on how you look, but how you act toward others, like a dog. By the way, a dog is always exploring and learning about his environment and the other creatures in it, in the only way a dog can.

What in the world makes you think living like a dog is wrong?

See, this is what I mean by egocentric. We look at the world through human eyes and try to make the world all about being human. You could just as well say that dogs are being punished by being reborn human and list a range of things humans do that go against doggie nature.

Dogs do not have human minds. They have dog minds. Humans do not have dog minds. They have human minds. Against this simple observation, why should I assume a vast universe where the purpose of a dog is to punish certain humans for "animal" behavior? Why can't the purpose of a dog be simply "being a dog"?

James0060

Why do you assume you cannot be reborn as an animal? That is incorrect. Imagine a man who spends every day living like a dog. He eats without care, he doesnt care for personal hygiene or manners. He is promiscuous and has sex with multiple partners and is constantly seeking instant physical gratification.

He spends no time educating himself, or developing deeper mental faculties. He is already an animal. He has squandered the blessing of a human body and brain. He may not know what it means to be human at all.

When he dies and a dog is born contingent on the state of becoming arisen from his attachment, he will truly suffer the ills of the animal's existence, and will no longer have the faculties to escape his woeful condition.

So by this just because a person lives his life wrongly for one life time due to his own arrogance he deserves to be reborn as an animal and possibly never leave that realm? But if it were say a mental state maybe living his life as a "dog" was already his punishment from a past life.

person

So by this just because a person lives his life wrongly for one life time due to his own arrogance he deserves to be reborn as an animal and possibly never leave that realm? But if it were say a mental state maybe living his life as a "dog" was already his punishment from a past life.

1. No need to add additional mental weight upon your suffering by feeling you deserve it, that bit is extra. Buddhism has its own world view that is built upon a foundation that is different than the Christian one. The Christian worldview is hardwired into us in the west. When we learn new Buddhist concepts what often happens is that we simply wallpaper over our Christian world view with new Buddhist concepts and while they may look new they tend to feel the same. Its hard to rewire our minds to see the world in a fundamentally different way and takes time and effort but it can happen.

2. No one stays in any realm forever. It is difficult to escape the lower realms because positive karma is hard to generate, but it does happen.

3. Mental karma exists as habitual mental attitudes. So in a way a miserable mental state is the continuation of some negative karma. But when engaged in also creates new karma. Through meditation and Buddhist practice our attitudes and karma can be changed.

Talisman

@cinorjer
you know what I meant ...
I was trying to make an understandable analogy and feel like it was a decent attempt. I don't appreciate being called egocentric just because I (a human) view things from a human point of view.

Talisman

I should also state that I disagree that dogs exhibit or understand loyalty or courage. The behaviors associated with loyalty and courage are simply reinforced responses, which is the same way it is with humans. The difference is that humans have language based behavior and so their beahvior can be controlled by rule-based anolog behavioral contingencies. The fact that humans have complex language skils, along with complex covert response capabilities, provides the human animal with a distinct advantage in understanding and improving their behavior.

Cinorjer

@cinorjer
you know what I meant ...
I was trying to make an understandable analogy and feel like it was a decent attempt. I don't appreciate being called egocentric just because I (a human) view things from a human point of view.

I'm really sorry, I didn't mean at all that you were egocentric in a personal way. I meant the concept of a human realm and looking at the universe from a human perspective is letting our egos or self become central to the functioning of the universe. I used the term in the same way we'd talk about selfish desires as something we all have, but that doesn't mean I'm calling someone selfish as a character trait.