Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

I have this habit

ClayTheScribeClayTheScribe Veteran
edited March 2012 in General Banter
Whenever I see someone who has committed a heinous crime, such as George Zimmerman, who shot unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, my first feeling and thought is of pity and empathy toward that individual. When I saw his mug shot, all I saw was fear in his eyes and I felt bad for him. This happened when I was covering the sentencing of a serial rapist Brent Brents in Denver as an intern. I just saw him as like a wounded child who wasn't even understanding quite what he did internally but he does as an adult. It's not that I don't feel for their victims and their families, I just see the deep pain in their hearts and realize I have the equal capability to do what they did and maybe worse. It's hard to share these to friends of mine in the United States because we're such a culture of hatred and vengeance and moralism and black-and-white right or wrong. Does anyone else do this and do you have people you can share it with?

Comments

  • ToshTosh Veteran
    I don't think what you have is particularly a 'habit', you've got some insight.

    Shantideva said something (paraphrasing) clever about if someone hit us with a stick, we wouldn't get angry with the stick, but then neither should we get angry with the person. The thing we should get annoyed about is the ignorance and delusion that is controlling the person who is holding the stick.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ^^

    I look at it quite differently. Many times I have heard Buddhists say, or seen them write, that one of the major factors in them adopting Buddhism as a way of thought is that unlike Christianity, where much of life is through God, with Buddhism it is the individual's responsibility for how he or she conducts his or her life.

    Now, I don't know George Zimmerman, but I'm going to make some suppositions about him based on what I've seen and read. He sounds a lot like a few others I have known who join quasi-law enforcement groups. The neighborhood watch organizations they join are supposed to be just that -- watch and report suspicious activity. But a few of these individuals take it much further, and they buy into vigilantism. Like Zimmerman, instead of watching, they pursue. They confront. In this case they carry a gun. All a recipe for disaster, and they're the cooks. They're the ones breaking the law and the spirit of the law, as much (or in this case probably far more) than the person they are illegally pursuing. And while there may be reasons, there is no excuse. The person they are pursuing becomes the victim. the family becomes victims, also. The friends become victims.

    Do I have some sympathy for Zimmerman. A bit. But, no one else did it. He did it. He acted with malice of forethought. He set up a karmic situation that only one person could have avoided -- himself.
  • edited March 2012
    I agree with everything in your post, Clay. That's how I feel too.

    (although, that wasn't his mugshot. that was a mugshot from an earlier arrest, or so I heard)
  • @vinlyn, But why are we so hell bent on punishment in this country rather than rehabilitation and *gasp* redemption? Isn't his karmic lot in this life and the next enough "punishment?" Isn't redemption and forgiveness what Buddhism teaches us, for every being, no matter how unskillful or "evil" their actions? He certainly could've prevented it, but why don't we also look into WHY he did it? It doesn't excuse anything but maybe if we can look into his past we can better raise our children so we don't have someone else doing the same.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    @vinlyn, But why are we so hell bent on punishment in this country rather than rehabilitation and *gasp* redemption?
    In the UK, a government who is seen to be 'tough on crime', i.e. tough on criminals, wins votes.

    Obviously, someone who is dangerous should be kept in prison, just like someone who is physically ill should be kept in hospital, but we've never had so many people in prison in the UK, and it's not a good thing. Prisons are like universities for crime; and many other reasons.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @vinlyn, But why are we so hell bent on punishment in this country rather than rehabilitation and *gasp* redemption? Isn't his karmic lot in this life and the next enough "punishment?" Isn't redemption and forgiveness what Buddhism teaches us, for every being, no matter how unskillful or "evil" their actions? He certainly could've prevented it, but why don't we also look into WHY he did it? It doesn't excuse anything but maybe if we can look into his past we can better raise our children so we don't have someone else doing the same.
    Well, let me get away from "crime", per se, to answer your question.

    As a school principal, the part of my job that I disliked the most was when I would have to suspend or expel a student. And while it certainly wasn't reliably predictable, there were quite a few students (maybe 70-80%) who would do something dopey, get suspended, and then continue what had been a pretty clean record. But then there were the recidivists. Suspension after suspension, and often, finally an expulsion. We'd hold conference after conference with the parents, explain the school rules, explain (in some cases) the state law, set up sessions with their counselor, sometimes go through multiple counselors, in some cases set up sessions with Child Protective Services, recommend a psychologist, and on and on and on...and no improvement. Offense after offense after offense. And, in some cases, I had a lot of sympathy for the kid, knew about a challenging upbringing, and so forth. But I could not allow drugs in my school. I could allow bringing guns to my school. I could not allow brandishing a knife in my school. Because the other 999 students in my school had a right to be drug free, bully free, weapon free, and safe.

    My adopted son went through the court system for one stupid lapse in judgment. Was locked up. Literally ruined his life. All for one mistake. One error. One foolish impulse. That's one thing. But, most of the people in court and lockup had been there over and over and over again. And that's what bothers me...that we don't seem to differentiate between the one time jerk off and the consistent offender.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    @vinlyn, But why are we so hell bent on punishment in this country rather than rehabilitation and *gasp* redemption?
    In the UK, a government who is seen to be 'tough on crime', i.e. tough on criminals, wins votes.

    Obviously, someone who is dangerous should be kept in prison, just like someone who is physically ill should be kept in hospital, but we've never had so many people in prison in the UK, and it's not a good thing. Prisons are like universities for crime; and many other reasons.

    So we don't just give the rest of the world Coke, McDonald's and guns, now we are also exporting 'tough on crime' and the prison system.
  • @vinlyn, But why are we so hell bent on punishment in this country rather than rehabilitation and *gasp* redemption? Isn't his karmic lot in this life and the next enough "punishment?" Isn't redemption and forgiveness what Buddhism teaches us, for every being, no matter how unskillful or "evil" their actions? He certainly could've prevented it, but why don't we also look into WHY he did it? It doesn't excuse anything but maybe if we can look into his past we can better raise our children so we don't have someone else doing the same.
    Well, let me get away from "crime", per se, to answer your question.

    As a school principal, the part of my job that I disliked the most was when I would have to suspend or expel a student. And while it certainly wasn't reliably predictable, there were quite a few students (maybe 70-80%) who would do something dopey, get suspended, and then continue what had been a pretty clean record. But then there were the recidivists. Suspension after suspension, and often, finally an expulsion. We'd hold conference after conference with the parents, explain the school rules, explain (in some cases) the state law, set up sessions with their counselor, sometimes go through multiple counselors, in some cases set up sessions with Child Protective Services, recommend a psychologist, and on and on and on...and no improvement. Offense after offense after offense. And, in some cases, I had a lot of sympathy for the kid, knew about a challenging upbringing, and so forth. But I could not allow drugs in my school. I could allow bringing guns to my school. I could not allow brandishing a knife in my school. Because the other 999 students in my school had a right to be drug free, bully free, weapon free, and safe.

    My adopted son went through the court system for one stupid lapse in judgment. Was locked up. Literally ruined his life. All for one mistake. One error. One foolish impulse. That's one thing. But, most of the people in court and lockup had been there over and over and over again. And that's what bothers me...that we don't seem to differentiate between the one time jerk off and the consistent offender.

    I find this is usually because somewhere down the line with those kids someone labelled them an "offender," "a bad kid," "mean," "a trouble maker," etc. instead of a kid who made a mistake. Can't speak for your case, but this is something A LOT of educators and social workers see and it's hard to un-do it. Often they go on believing their identity is a criminal and they do even more stupid stuff and end up in jail for the rest of their life. And, most importantly, not enough people--especially their parents--didn't love them enough or properly and therefore they don't love themselves so why would they bother loving anyone else? No amount of help can work for that kid until someone gets to the root of why he doesn't love himself. And surely there are psychopaths who can never be rehabilitated in our time, but most others can, especially if someone really gets them to love themselves early on. It sounds like Zimmerman didn't get enough of that growing up (his father was a judge...), so he probably never loved himself.

    To quote psychotherapist John Welwood: "Here the root of all evil is laid bare: There are no bad people, only badly loved people. If Stalin, Hitler or Osama bin Laden experienced themselves as loved and lovable, what motivation would they have to kill? Feeling love circulating through you makes you want to celebrate and nurture life, not destroy it."
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @vinlyn, But why are we so hell bent on punishment in this country rather than rehabilitation and *gasp* redemption?
    In the UK, a government who is seen to be 'tough on crime', i.e. tough on criminals, wins votes.

    Obviously, someone who is dangerous should be kept in prison, just like someone who is physically ill should be kept in hospital, but we've never had so many people in prison in the UK, and it's not a good thing. Prisons are like universities for crime; and many other reasons.

    So we don't just give the rest of the world Coke, McDonald's and guns, now we are also exporting 'tough on crime' and the prison system.
    You act as if we shove everything down the world's throat.

    Let me give you a little lesson. In Thailand, I knew a fellow who was in on the ground floor of McDonalds in Thailand. The company is actually a Thai company called McThai. At its inception, it was a Thai national who formed a company, the majority of which had to be owned by Thais (and still is), and they went to McDonalds corporation and asked to franchise. When I visited my friend at the headquarters in Bangkok, I didn't see a Caucasian face. All Thais. In fact, when you go throughout SE Asia, what you tend to see are companies that are related more to China than the U.S. And you seem to forget that many American companies (take Capitol Records, for example) are owned by companies in other countries.

    America is not dictating to any other other country what their legal system should be. If anyone is, perhaps the U.N. -- an institution where our influence is not predominant.



  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    In case anyone hasn't seen it:

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    You act as if we shove everything down the world's throat.

    Let me give you a little lesson. In Thailand, I knew a fellow who was in on the ground floor of McDonalds in Thailand. The company is actually a Thai company called McThai. At its inception, it was a Thai national who formed a company, the majority of which had to be owned by Thais (and still is), and they went to McDonalds corporation and asked to franchise. When I visited my friend at the headquarters in Bangkok, I didn't see a Caucasian face. All Thais. In fact, when you go throughout SE Asia, what you tend to see are companies that are related more to China than the U.S. And you seem to forget that many American companies (take Capitol Records, for example) are owned by companies in other countries.

    America is not dictating to any other other country what their legal system should be. If anyone is, perhaps the U.N. -- an institution where our influence is not predominant.



    Not shoving, just exporting more garbage, so its not what America is dictating, its what they are offering. Now instead of garbage products its also garbage ideas. And yes, I do mean McDonald's, Coke and 'tough on crime' are garbage products.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    Not shoving, just exporting more garbage, so its not what America is dictating, its what they are offering. Now instead of garbage products its also garbage ideas. And yes, I do mean McDonald's, Coke and 'tough on crime' are garbage products.
    I think it's a little sad that you think that foreigners are so stupid that they will just buy anything the US exports. Did it ever occur to you that they are importing what they want? Or shouldn't they have that right?

  • Oh how I love the national egoism going on here! I always found it fascinating how humans so strongly tied their identities to the nations they grew up in or live in, to the point they wanted to fight others, even those also born within those same imaginary boundaries, to ensure that identity is never destroyed, even though it is changing every second. I can't wait for the day in the next few hundred years when we're fighting over whether Earth is a good or bad planet for the rest of the galaxy. I rest in the fact that nations have their own karma and the United States is and will deal with it as we go further into the post-American century.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I think it's a little sad that you think that foreigners are so stupid that they will just buy anything the US exports. Did it ever occur to you that they are importing what they want? Or shouldn't they have that right?
    This is a really good question. Market theory is that the best product will win the market, so locally-made products, if they're better, will dominate the market, and inferior imported products will fall by the wayside. Not so in reality. It turns out that US corporations have much more money to spend on marketing than little local enterprises, so they end up pushing Coke on people when the locally-made soft drinks are healthier, cheaper and tastier. The US embassies do everything they can to facilitate this process, too.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran


    Not shoving, just exporting more garbage, so its not what America is dictating, its what they are offering. Now instead of garbage products its also garbage ideas. And yes, I do mean McDonald's, Coke and 'tough on crime' are garbage products.
    I think it's a little sad that you think that foreigners are so stupid that they will just buy anything the US exports. Did it ever occur to you that they are importing what they want? Or shouldn't they have that right?

    They may want a Big Mac, but its still garbage. Why don't they see what the fast food diet has done to American's waistline and stay away from our diet, what about being 'smart on crime' or 'effective on crime'? Really though it doesn't have much to do with America, as these ideas don't belong to the country, they belong to the people who originated them and propogate them. And as @Dakini says there is also much marketing that goes into it.
Sign In or Register to comment.