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Having children
I am just curious as to what people think on this topic. I am at child-bearing age, in a committed relationship and do want children although I feel like I am often questioning why people make this decision. As in what is the motivation behind people's decision to have children? Is it purely biological, like the continuation of the species is important therefore women feel inside that they want to procreate? (I have certainly felt this instinct grow as I become older).
And I also wonder, if life is suffering and quite difficult for a lot of people, why bring a person into this world to face all that suffering? I mean sure we can guide them and help them through it but I don't know, I guess I just feel like I would be too sensitive to watch my own child suffer through life. Like if they were being bullied or when they have their first heartbreak, I am not sure I could bear it. I cry over watching an old person walking alone down the street for goodness sake!
Anyway just want to see what people think about why people have children.. (sorry if it's a silly question!)
And I also wonder, if life is suffering and quite difficult for a lot of people, why bring a person into this world to face all that suffering? I mean sure we can guide them and help them through it but I don't know, I guess I just feel like I would be too sensitive to watch my own child suffer through life. Like if they were being bullied or when they have their first heartbreak, I am not sure I could bear it. I cry over watching an old person walking alone down the street for goodness sake!
Anyway just want to see what people think about why people have children.. (sorry if it's a silly question!)
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I do not believe that life is a curse, pure suffering. I believe a human life is a precious thing and a gift.
My own personal views (some of which may contradict each other):
I wanted both of my children.
The desire to have the first, was largely influenced by social mores, conditioning and the fact that as a newly-wed Roman Catholic couple, we were "expected" to have a child.
I instantly adored my daughter from the second i bore her, and still do.
My second child was purely, completely, entirely and passionately hormone-driven.
There was no rhyme, reason, or logical explanation for wanting that second child. I was just insanely desperate, and NEEDED to fulfil a biological desire which absolutely no amount of logical argument could dissuade me from having. it was a madness over which i seemed to have no control over. I came to understand why women would snatch babies from prams, and looking at newly-born babies was emotional torture.
the moment i had my second child, all and any desire to possibly have a third, was absolutely stone-cold dead. i wasn't interested in ever looking at pregnancy again - the whole thing left me cold, and it was almost an aversion to think about. the absolute turn-around astonished even me.
I instantly adored my daughter, and still do - but we became estranged when her father and I divorced, and I have only recently begun to connect with her again.
My mother once described herself and my father not as parents, but as a couple with children.
I can equate - because I also don't feel in any way particularly 'maternal'....
I personally believe that bearing a child in this world, right now, is grossly irresponsible, and a financial drain on society.
every child, by the time it hits 18, will cost parents and society, at least a quarter of a million dollars. There are countless thousands of children awaiting fostering, adoption or sponsorship.
Most couples having a child nowadays will give reasons similar to those I had for having my first child - which are trivial and frankly, not thought out properly. to have a child simply because one's parents would love a grandchild, or because it's the done thing, or because you're expected to have a baby - is ludicrous.
If you want to adopt an animal, from an animal shelter - you have to go through all manner of legal and personal checks to prove you're a capable person, and that you have the right environment to take that animal to.
If you want a child, and your only choice is to adopt - again, the legal, medical and social hoops you have to go through, are gargantuan, and it has the potential to be a demoralising and heart-stopping process....
If you become pregnant, the only matter of any prolonged scrutiny is the mother and baby's well-being - but i don't know whether there's any able and civilised country in the world that assesses people and evaluates whether they're a fit person to be a parent.
Being a mother/father is biologically simple.
Being a parent takes a whole lot more dedication....
this is not to say - or ever imply in any way - that I am saying "I wish i had bnever had children." Not at all.
What I'm saying is that if i had my time again, i would give it a whole lot more consideration.
Those are my thoughts.
What a mish-mash...
Do they help?
I personally feel like it's irresponsible and I do have vague plans to adopt someday. Although, I'm turning 27 this year and I keep thinking that I feel nowhere near ready for anything like that. Like maybe at 35...?
But, I am also a lesbian so "having" children would involve a lot more work than your typical heterosexual couple. I don't know if I would feel differently if I were heterosexual, it's very possible that I might. Adoption seems just as easy and reasonable for me as artificial insemination or whatever (but both are much more complicated than just 'not wearing a condom' lol). It also seems like the most compassionate course of action... to me, anyways. I also have no desire to have a little "me" running around. That thought sort of terrifies me, actually. I'd rather gamble on someone else's dna...
i'm further convinced that my insane desperate and homicidal urge (!) was down to a hormone imbalance in the first place...it's too long a story to post here, and it would swerve the topic seriously off-course, but i did subsequently need HRT due to an ovarian problem, so I think there was something seriously askew, biologically....
She speaks to us like we're dirt at times and then later phones me when I'm in the bath wanting a lift (ride if you're an American!). I took her and her friend to a rock concert on Sunday - I planned and paid for it - then I hung around for nearly five hours while the concert was on - I even did some walking meditation - while waiting for the concert to finish so I could take them home, and the next day she was just as stroppy as ever.
She will learn; and so will I, but dogs are definitely better.
I reject outright, pat philosophies and views for or against having children. Each to their own, either way. All I know is that once you have one... you learn a lot fast.
Women generally driven to bear and nurture children - men generally driven to delivering their package (whether or not children result) - once you have a kid, you just have to get on with it - you wont understand until you have a kid - you create a life, its not your life but you have a lot of time and influence there and you see it grow and move into the world and live just like you - it is a lifetime's cooperation and reasons right there... then in your older age, you will have people around you that you know and who love you and they may in turn take care of you and you may even be able to live your youth again in part through the new generation.
I suppose in one way, kids give you a reason to live and love - a powerful undeniable physically manisfested reason...
Perhaps one question is what motivates you to live and how do you live your life - its a trade off that you will have to live with - there is no right answer and each path has its positives and negatives.
I have found that the majority of people I have talked to about kids have retrospectively said pretty much what @federica says - 'not saying I wouldnt do it again or I regret it but if I had my time again, I would contemplate it more'... some go so far as saying 'if I knew what I knew now I wouldnt have had children'... these are just the weirdos that I've met though...
Too much contemplation will turn you bald, put a big smile on your face and perhaps leave you in a cave somewhere!!!
Maybe we have an idea of what having children will be like; the lovely Christmas's, the days out in the Sun, the laughter, love and sharing; maybe we think we'll do a better job of it than our parents did for us and some rivalry gets involved? But then they become teenagers and it all goes 'orribly wrong.
Dogs are better I tell ye!
(Actually, I have to keep reminding myself, my daughter is a good lass; she's honest, she doesn't steal, smoke, drink, use drugs, she's sensible with regards to boys; she will study when pressed; she loves our dog and she can also be very sweet on the rare occasion. It's easy to be cynical, and I often take the easy route.)
1) If there are no more children being born, then does that mean we would be reborn for eternity into the other realms, as there is no more human children being born for us to be reborn into. Thus making it impossible for anyone to ever reach enlightenment as the human realm now lays dormant, with the human realm being the only realm in which you can gain enlightenment.
2) "why bring a person into this world to face all that suffering?" Well, one idea I have is the following. This child you have, may be the rebirth of someone who is climbing up the wheel. Maybe by giving this child life you have given someone/attman(?) the rebirth they need to possibly reach enlightenment and get of the wheel (breaking samsara), and isn't that worth while enough? knowing your child is the rebirth of somebody who is slowly becoming more enlightened, as if the rebirth wasn't gaining more clarity it would have been reborn in a lower realm?
Just my thoughts....but i don't know much about anything...Other than political science ha.
Oh and i have two children, and yes they may experience suffering, however, they also experience a lot of joy, and love.
love
Me
My Zen teacher (who was Japanese) told me twice (and for him to do that is like having a Marine Corps drill instructor screaming in your ear) "Take care of your family." My kids have been every bit and more daunting than any Zen retreat I have ever been on. Assuming a parent loves his or her kids, they require a focus and attention and high points and low that leaves "Buddhism" in the shade... or possibly lets anyone know what honest Buddhism really is. The ego-tripping that is part and parcel of being single (no criticism, just fact) goes out the window. And the experience is not always pleasant ... but it has the advantage of being healthy. Any parent who has fulfilled his or her role, might look around and marvel that infanticide is not more common on the planet.
But what my teacher referred to as "family" is really an instructive course.
I don't know about any other parents, but I'm certainly glad I didn't kill my kids. Which is not for a moment to suggest it didn't cross my mind.
The Gnostics believed just as you say--that life is suffering (they believed the Demiurge, not a loving God, created life on Earth), so new lives shouldn't be created. Some of them were celibate, and advocated celibacy even to married couples, others practiced "tantric"-type sex, i.e. seminal retention to avoid conception. Still others believed in homosexuality to avoid conception.
Fortunately these days, there's not the pressure there used to be for couples to have kids. So there's more of a choice. "What's the motivation to have children?" Some do want to pass on their genes, they want to create little clones of themselves (it usually doesn't work out quite that way. Kids have minds of their own, surprise!) For some women it becomes a hormonal thing. For some people, it's just conditioning. It's a big decision, and no one hands you an owner's manual when the kids arrive, so be prepared.
However, some people don't like the idea of trying to work with a genetic package that isn't theirs. Maybe they're afraid there might be unpleasant surprises. I dunno, but I think there's some measure of ego involved in wanting to create and raise your own gene package. Lots of people raise big families of adopted kids, and they all do fine, though.
Hey, ZG, have you thought about the fact that since there's a scarcity of adoptive kids in the US, you might have to adopt a kid from another country? That complicates it. Have you really thought about the nitty-gritty details of adoption? This just crossed my mind, so I was wondering.
This could also work the other way... as in your child has really bad kamma and just has a life of suffering, like some people tend to just have one tragedy after another.
Interesting comments thanks guys. Frederica your comments are interesting and I think for me it is going to be a case of the 2nd point you mention re the hormones. The reason I say this is because when I was younger (I am now 30) the very thought of children or having them made me go 'yuk!' and I was really not at all that concerned about having them. But as I have gotten older I have noticed these feelings of wanting a baby, but I have no idea why!! So it feels a bit confusing. I don't think I have a good enough reason to have children simply because I 'want to'. I want to experience being a mother and I want to have the opportunity to guide someone through life but is wanting children for this reason just another worldly desire? So, I decided to examine why I truly want children and I have no answers. It made me wonder why people make the choice. I certainly don't want it to be a case of because society tells me too, as I feel absolutely no pressure from that point of view, and also I love my life as it is and the freedom I have, but at the same time I am starting to enter that period of going 'awwww' every time I see a baby and really picture myself being a mother. So I can only imagine as the years go by from now this will get stronger and stronger.
It's amazing the extent to which hormones drive psychology. Think about that one.
Re PMS - if you're drinking coffee, try to stop. See if it makes a difference.
I had a spiritual teacher who pointed out that my ex would have done much better without any children, then he saw the look on my face and said that he understood that would not be possible for me. I loved all of the time being pregnant, did really well and was healthy, even the birth part makes other moms kinda mad at me. I breastfed for 2 years each. So I feel really good that I was able to do the best for my kids,
Nope I don't drink coffee. I manage PMS ok. I was just trying to illustrate how some people think you can control it, but I reject that. It is manageable, but not controllable.
Major cluelessness.
I had begun Buddhist practice, in a consistent way, when I was about 24. At 27 I was in a committed relationship with a guy I had great respect, compassion and admiration for and had been for about 7 years. He is a musician and creative artist, who is an atheist and very much did not want to bring children into the world - he has not gone on to be a father. We had a settled and productive home and life together and this major difference between us led me to leave the relationship.
I agree it is a crazy urge - even when understand human life as being a precious thing and you have the support of a committed parenting partner for the child.
With metta _/|\_
If you believe such things..
Hopefully that means she'll treat people the same way......that's all you can ask for really.
I expect to need the care of my children before I die. I would be much happier knowing that my kids are overseeing my care if I become helpless, rather than a case worker with many other clients to tend to.
In the province where I live, I have seen that without family support, care for the elderly in the hands of the system can be dicey at best. At worst I could be a living hell.
Family planning includes thinking about yourself.
In court in 2009 he had 21 kids. He told the judge he was planning on not having anymore.
3 years and 9 new kids later it is 2012 and he now has 30 kids.
He alone had my children for me and I would only want two if I were to go the route of being a father.
I can see the value of helping raise another life form but for me personally.. I don't want that attachment, that responsibility. I would much rather dedicate this very short life to furthering my own practice so that I can be of most benefit possible.
With the distraction of children and a wife, that would be much more difficult to maintain great discipline with my spiritual practice.
He who is kind toward much-beloved friends loses his own good from his
mind, becoming partial; observing such danger in friendship, let one walk
alone like a rhinoceros.
As a spreading bush of bamboo is entangled in various ways, so is the
longing for children and wives: not clinging to these, even like a bamboo
just sprouting forth, let one walk alone like a rhinoceros....
If one lives in the midst of company, love of amusement and desire arises;
strong attachment for children arises; let therefore one who dislikes
separation, which must happen sooner or later from these beloved, walk
alone like a rhinoceros....
Having abandoned the different kinds of desire, founded on child, wife,
father, mother, wealth, corn, relations, let one walk alone like a
rhinoceros.
Let a wise man, having discovered that such is attachment, that there is
in it but little happiness, that it is but insipid, that there is more
affliction in it than comfort, that it is a fishhook, walk alone like a
rhinoceros.
Having cast off the bonds, like a fish which breaks the net in the water,
like a fire that returns not to the spot already burned up, let one walk
alone like a rhinoceros.
Buddhism. Sutta Nipata 37-62: Rhinoceros Discourse