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Wealth gap is not a fault of rich people or poor people

edited April 2012 in General Banter
The statistic says 20% of people owning 80% of the country's wealth. Is this the fault of the rich?
I think in a free world like Norther America, other than inheritance, everyone has the equal chance to become wealthy.
On the surface, It's the difference in people that make them rich or poor.Their choices define their wealth but what define their choices?

The wealth gap is actually an example of the Pareto principle which states for many events, roughly 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't think there is one answer to that.

    First, people don't start out at zero. Some begin rich through inheritance. Other begin poor through lack of inheritance.

    But personal choice is a big part, also.

    Very difficult.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I think the pareto principle makes sense in part, but I don't think the playing field isn't level.

    I had a thread a while back that covered alot of my views about this topic.

    http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/13427/wealth-and-income-inequality-americas-moral-crisis/p1
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited April 2012
    I would definitely dispute that the playing field is level because of genetics for one thing. And inheritance and social networks. There is racism. There is an imbalance of education and good parenting. Many things. Trauma for example.

    It doesn't mean anything to say there are equal chances. Because everyone has their own story.
  • Maybe capitalism is to blame?
  • Elitism is rife, in the UK at least. On the surface opportunities are equal, but something often missed is the fact people from poor backgrounds are continually taught they will not achieve. As Jeffrey alludes to, then there are other reasons and mechanisms to keep people down. Implicitly or explicitly poor people are kept in their place.

    Is there a 'buddhist' method of governance?
  • Elitism is rife, in the UK at least. On the surface opportunities are equal, but something often missed is the fact people from poor backgrounds are continually taught they will not achieve. As Jeffrey alludes to, then there are other reasons and mechanisms to keep people down. Implicitly or explicitly poor people are kept in their place.

    Is there a 'buddhist' method of governance?
    Don't look to Tibet for enlightened governance before the Chinese invasion. Thailand is officially Buddhist, and hardly a paradise. No religion should be used as a secular authority because it immediately becomes the chains instead of a method of escaping them.

    Sociologists know the single biggest deciding factor in what income level you will end up in, is what social group you were born into. It is that subgroup of connections that actually provide the opportunities.

    The problem isn't how many people are rich or poor, but does society provide opportunities to advance. For most people, that means a cheap enough education to make it worth the investment and a job market that provides a way to increase your income over time. However, if you are born to lower or middle class, you will never be part of that upper class social club in spite of being talented enough or lucky enough or genius enough to make it big. They don't have to be any of those things. They just have to know the right people.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    ...Implicitly or explicitly poor people are kept in their place...

    Okay, but let's not take it too far. There are very poor people who succeed and rich people who fail.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ...Thailand is officially Buddhist, and hardly a paradise...

    Sociologists know the single biggest deciding factor in what income level you will end up in, is what social group you were born into. It is that subgroup of connections that actually provide the opportunities.

    The problem isn't how many people are rich or poor, but does society provide opportunities to advance. For most people, that means a cheap enough education to make it worth the investment and a job market that provides a way to increase your income over time. However, if you are born to lower or middle class, you will never be part of that upper class social club in spite of being talented enough or lucky enough or genius enough to make it big. They don't have to be any of those things. They just have to know the right people.
    I know 3 families in Thailand very well. Each family started out a generation ago poor.

    One family "came up" through the father's decision to become a policeman in Chiang Mai. Eventually the family bought a small hotel. One sister owns a nice restaurant. One brother is a school teacher.

    Another family's father worked very hard. Managed to send the son to college. Got a degree that allowed him to work in a bank. Hopped onto the McThai (McDonalds in Thailand) bandwagon from the outset and is now a minor executive in another Thai fast food outlet. Doing very well.

    Another family is very poor out in Issan. I've been to the "village". 2 sisters and 2 brothers. One brother, my ex, scraped together funds to go to college, got 2 degrees, and is a mid-level executive in the Education Ministry. Doing pretty well with great job security and health care. The other brother...well, not lazy, but he owns a couple of rice fields. Lives in a poor house in a swamp, trash all over. I think they recently got an "in-house" for the first time.

    So what are the differences here? Ambition on the part of some to, as you indicate, raise themselves up.


  • I know 3 families in Thailand very well. Each family started out a generation ago poor.

    One family "came up" through the father's decision to become a policeman in Chiang Mai. Eventually the family bought a small hotel. One sister owns a nice restaurant. One brother is a school teacher.

    Another family's father worked very hard. Managed to send the son to college. Got a degree that allowed him to work in a bank. Hopped onto the McThai (McDonalds in Thailand) bandwagon from the outset and is now a minor executive in another Thai fast food outlet. Doing very well.

    Another family is very poor out in Issan. I've been to the "village". 2 sisters and 2 brothers. One brother, my ex, scraped together funds to go to college, got 2 degrees, and is a mid-level executive in the Education Ministry. Doing pretty well with great job security and health care. The other brother...well, not lazy, but he owns a couple of rice fields. Lives in a poor house in a swamp, trash all over. I think they recently got an "in-house" for the first time.

    So what are the differences here? Ambition on the part of some to, as you indicate, raise themselves up.

    There are always people who are able to take advantage of opportunities to advance that are there. If you're able to find jobs, save money, pay for an education, afford to start a small business, etc, you can end up better off. And wealth is always relative. The difference is, even in these cases your successful people had a family and connections they were able to take advantage of. In such a darwinian society, the chances are a bit of bad luck will cause you to lose. Just because a few people win at the wheel of fortune doesn't mean it's possible for most people to win.

    The important factor here is finding jobs. In every case you mention, upward mobility is directly linked to a job that provides enough income to live comfortably and save a bit, etc. Keeping that job or small business running is the only thing keeping them from destitution. That's the difference between upper class elite and just making money. No matter how many of their businesses fail, or if they ever get a job, or how badly the economy is doing, the upper class never has to worry about going hungry or not having a nice place to live.

    I see the problem as when the upper class feel too entitled and their self interest becomes selfish greed. It's as natural as the rise and fall of empires. It doesn't make it easier to watch happen.


  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    There are always people who are able to take advantage of opportunities to advance that are there. If you're able to find jobs, save money, pay for an education, afford to start a small business, etc, you can end up better off. And wealth is always relative. The difference is, even in these cases your successful people had a family and connections they were able to take advantage of. In such a darwinian society, the chances are a bit of bad luck will cause you to lose. Just because a few people win at the wheel of fortune doesn't mean it's possible for most people to win.

    The important factor here is finding jobs. In every case you mention, upward mobility is directly linked to a job that provides enough income to live comfortably and save a bit, etc. Keeping that job or small business running is the only thing keeping them from destitution. That's the difference between upper class elite and just making money. No matter how many of their businesses fail, or if they ever get a job, or how badly the economy is doing, the upper class never has to worry about going hungry or not having a nice place to live.

    I see the problem as when the upper class feel too entitled and their self interest becomes selfish greed. It's as natural as the rise and fall of empires. It doesn't make it easier to watch happen.


    It's not that I'm saying it's easy. But I'm also not saying what you are -- that it's all the fault of the upper class. Much of it is, in my view, people in the lower class making poor choices.

    My mother was rather poor most of her adult life. She did "okay" until her second husband was killed. Then she really struggled. Barely made it by most years, and although she never took them, she qualified for food stamps several times.

    Then she lucked out, and at one point was offered 2 jobs simultaneously -- both secretarial jobs -- one in a chiropractor's office, the other in a public school office. The doctor offered a basic salary...period. The school offered about the same salary, plus some security, plus health care and retirement. I urged her to take the school job, but she thought the doctor's office would be more interesting. Then, after about a decade, her health began to fail. No health insurance and she finally had to stop working. More difficult years financially, barely making it by most of the time. Never getting the full health care she really needed.

    Every thing negative that happened to her that had anything to do with finances -- except the death of her second husband -- was based on the job choices she made through her life. No one held her down...except herself.



  • @vinlyn I actually agree with you. I see plenty of examples of people who struggle, work hard, and make it. I also see plenty of examples of people who, in spite of their struggles and hard work, get slammed by life. Be a young black man in Michigan right now and try to get a good paying job, or any job at all, even with a high school diploma, and then we can talk about how hard work is all it takes.

    When society becomes "everyone for themselves" and doors to success are intentionally slammed in people's faces and everyone thinks that is the right thing to do, then society has become ill. Then the wealth gap becomes a problem. The wealthy are just people, not evil, greedy bastards as a rule. The poor are just people, not lazy leaches on society. Just people.

    But a hungry woman with hungry children to feed doesn't care whose fault it is that she lost her job to downsizing while the CEO gets a 10 million dollar bonus that Christmas. A young man who spends years trying to find someone to pay him for his labor and being told he isn't needed doesn't care about the national debt that caused the local trade school to lose its funding. It's a lot harder to feel empathy for a rich man worth 200 million dollars who whines about paying a tiny bit more taxes, isn't it?

    Ah, just feeling a bit peeved at the world today. There are days I wish that I could go back to talk to Buddha, and tell him, "The problem isn't people are addicted to desires. The problem is, people are bloody stupid!"

  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    @vinlyn I actually agree with you. I see plenty of examples of people who struggle, work hard, and make it. I also see plenty of examples of people who, in spite of their struggles and hard work, get slammed by life. Be a young black man in Michigan right now and try to get a good paying job, or any job at all, even with a high school diploma, and then we can talk about how hard work is all it takes.

    When society becomes "everyone for themselves" and doors to success are intentionally slammed in people's faces and everyone thinks that is the right thing to do, then society has become ill. Then the wealth gap becomes a problem. The wealthy are just people, not evil, greedy bastards as a rule. The poor are just people, not lazy leaches on society. Just people.

    But a hungry woman with hungry children to feed doesn't care whose fault it is that she lost her job to downsizing while the CEO gets a 10 million dollar bonus that Christmas. A young man who spends years trying to find someone to pay him for his labor and being told he isn't needed doesn't care about the national debt that caused the local trade school to lose its funding. It's a lot harder to feel empathy for a rich man worth 200 million dollars who whines about paying a tiny bit more taxes, isn't it?

    Ah, just feeling a bit peeved at the world today. There are days I wish that I could go back to talk to Buddha, and tell him, "The problem isn't people are addicted to desires. The problem is, people are bloody stupid!"

    You not alone.
  • The statistic says 20% of people owning 80% of the country's wealth.
    That depends whose statistics you believe. I've seen a lot of stats on this, and I seriously doubt the numbers you quote. Lots of different sources agree that 80% of the wealth in the US is concentrated in less than 10% of the top, and a large percentage of that (more than half) is concentrated in the top 1%.

    Whose fault is it? That it exists? Nobody's. That it's wrong? I don't know that it's anyone's fault in particular. The problem comes in the fact that a huge, overwhelming majority of those "with" don't know what the meaning of "need" or "enough" are. Greed, when you boil it down to the very, very, very bottom of the pot, is at the root of about 98.9% of the world's problems (not just the US). Were it not for an insatiable desire for more, more, more, lots of things that are considered major problems wouldn't be problems, or at worst would be minor annoyances. The health care mess in the US - greed. Global warming - greed. Mono-agriculture - greed. I could go on and on and on.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    One's ability to succeed in the world should be determined more by one's ability and determination (meritocracy) than by one's circumstances of birth (aristocracy). Its almost certainly impossible to have a perfect meritocracy but that should be the goal and what public policy strives to achieve. IMO.
  • The thing about wealth gap is that it's a gap between class. It's not gap between specific individual. The bottom percentile can move to the top and the top percentile can move to the bottom. I read the wealthy can't pass the wealth for more than a few generations. So the wealth is not static to a specific group of people. Remember everything is impermanence in this world including wealth.

    Also, age plays a role too. It's only fair that 20 years old just started out is at the bottom of percentile. Those that are 60 years old are at the top 20% percentile.








  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    The thing about wealth gap is that it's a gap between class. It's not gap between specific individual. The bottom percentile can move to the top and the top percentile can move to the bottom. I read the wealthy can't pass the wealth for more than a few generations. So the wealth is not static to a specific group of people. Remember everything is impermanence in this world including wealth.

    Also, age plays a role too. It's only fair that 20 years old just started out is at the bottom of percentile. Those that are 60 years old are at the top 20% percentile.








    Wows! Right on the money!:)
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