Brad Warner

Invincible_summer

So I really like his writing, probably because I'm all into Zen and punk music just like him. However, I've seen some posts on forums and whatnot that suggest that he's a pretty polarizing figure within the Buddhist community - what's up with that?

ThailandTom

I do not know much about this guy, actually I may know nothing at all. I think I may have heard something about him on here, is he the one who drinks and that kind of thing, but is meant to be quite the wise man?

Invincible_summer

I do not know much about this guy, actually I may know nothing at all. I think I may have heard something about him on here, is he the one who drinks and that kind of thing, but is meant to be quite the wise man?

Lol no... that's Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche.

Brad Warner is this guy.

RichardH

So I really I'm all into Zen and punk music just like him.

Don't be into Zen. .. Zen Buddhism begins with the First Noble Truth... get into that.

zombiegirl

I've read a few of his books that I really enjoyed. You know, they were really some of the first ever Buddhist books that I had read (Hardcore Zen was #1). At the time, I thought they were sort of a light intro to Buddhism in very down to earth speech (I like his writing style), but I'm not sure if I really learned all that much from him. His books are mostly story/amusing, with some hidden info. But I admit, I often think I should re-read them to see if perhaps it was just mostly over my head due to my understanding of Buddhism at the time.

I didn't know there were controversies regarding him. On what grounds? The fact that he talks about his satori or the fact that he talks about his drinking and rocking days in a nearly glorified manner? Or something different altogether? I've never personally had a problem with anything I've read by him.

chanratt

He never drank. He was an unofficial straight-edger. I think the controversies were regarding his relationship with a student from what I can remember and he ticked a few people of at one of his sanghas. He seems to have a chip on his shoulder when it comes to the Zen elite/phd types and refuses to wear robes etc on retreats and instead wears punk t-shirts etc etc. I think he brings his rebellious punk attitude into Zen and does his best to demystify it through his books. I like him and I think, no matter what you have heard, you can learn (or un-learn) a lot from him. Oh yeah and don't get 'all into Zen'. That's what he doesn't like

Cinorjer

So I really like his writing, probably because I'm all into Zen and punk music just like him. However, I've seen some posts on forums and whatnot that suggest that he's a pretty polarizing figure within the Buddhist community - what's up with that?

The criticism comes from him not being a member of an "official Sangha" teaching line. Before trying to teach anyone, you're supposed to pay your dues by attaching yourself to a lineage and get Dharma Transmission from some Master and hang out with the right people, or the rules say you're not allowed to claim any insight. Why is this the rule? Because that's the way it is done over in the East where the sects came from. You don't question the rules, you just obey. That's why they're called rules.

What he says is just fine, far as it goes. He's actually a bit too traditional for my taste in some areas. I've met people "authorized" to teach who didn't have a clue but knew how to parrot their own teachers, and people like this who apparently know what they're talking about but have no desire to play the political Sangha system. I suppose what matters is what he's teaching.

RichardH

Why is this the rule?

Quality control. As imperfect as it is... without it Zen Buddhism would disappear into "Zen", a new-age free-for-all. ... or a "beat zen" trip of "just being".

Reform is needed.. but I appreciate lineage.

genkaku

Reform is needed.. but I appreciate lineage.

@RichardH -- Would you describe lineage from your point of view and perhaps say how and why it's useful?

Cinorjer

Why is this the rule?

Quality control. As imperfect as it is... without it Zen Buddhism would disappear into "Zen", a new-age free-for-all. ... or a "beat zen" trip of "just being".

Reform is needed.. but I appreciate lineage.

@RichardH I agree having that diploma of recognition, so to speak, helps people know that what is being taught is authentic. After I made my post, I got to thinking. Everyone talks about "Western Buddhism" and wondering what it will look like. I don't know what it will look like, but I know when it arrives, it will piss off the established, Eastern Sanghas already here. That's the nature of transformation.

And Western Buddhism, like Western Christianity, will have to include both the big established sects and the guy who opens a little hall and starts preaching the Gospel of Buddha because he has a calling to do so. And sometimes that message will be flawed, but once in a while it will speak to the heart of Buddha and point out needed reforms in the authoritarian sects where ritual and tradition begin to be worshipped a bit too much.

taiyaki

Op i like brads writing as well.
But my girl friend find him annoying.

At times he sounds very wise and confident. And at other times he sounds like a whiney little child.

Depends on how much sleep i get.

RichardH

Reform is needed.. but I appreciate lineage.

@RichardH -- Would you describe lineage from your point of view and perhaps say how and why it's useful?

Lineage is a living tradition,... a living form of effective practice, and customs of practice. It is the stream of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha that has flowed down from early Buddhism , evolving and growing... meeting new cultures, developing new myths and practices tested and retested.. A vehicle for facilitating and supporting awakening.

A far as authority goes, the buck stops here. Can it be any other way? ..but if it wasn't for people more mature and less confused than me, helping me along..... and maybe saying to me.... "kid, you got it mixed up", I would still be musing like I was in 1989, and not actually engaging practice.

I do not believe in the pure master, who is elevated over the Sangha, but do believe in the Mentor, the spiritual friend, who by demonstrating maturity earns a leading role... That is what I mean by reform.

There is no shortage of self ordained "Dharma" teachers in my town... selling snake oil.
There is no shortage of this http://www.buddhamaitreya.org/ going on. So a lineage representing responsible teachings and practice , grounded in history, is very valuable.

AMH

Yeah, Brad was in trouble before his relationship but I like his writing and it got me to read something about buddhism when I was nto reading anything. So kinda like a gateway drug. (that was a joke)

He has a new book all about sex that I have not read, but I read the other 3. I can see where he pisses people off easily, I come from the same clean living, punk and buddhist background. Sometimes we are annoying. But he keeps on going back to the real stuff, no excuses for drugs and even a messy room, and just do your practice. I wish he had a lineage because that would be my first choice.

RichardH

@genkaku.. Maybe this is not the thread to say this.. but what the hell. You know, I think, that I was moderating (crumby job...sympathies federica) elsewhere under my Dharma name... and it was when you used that venue to courageously push past the inertia of deference to authority, and really raise the flag about appalling abuse and disfunction in contemporary Zen. ... I watched the whole thing, it changed my mind, and I respect what you did. So.. just saying.

genkaku

@RichardH -- As regards lineage, I have to admit that I am at sea, so your view seems as reasonable as any other.

As Stuart Lachs points out somewhere (and I am sorry not to have chapter and verse handy), the suggestion by any number of schools and sects that they can trace their lineage back 2,500 hundred years (all the way to Shakyamuni Buddha) may have its uses for sales purposes, but tends to crumble under direct scrutiny. A little fudging of the facts here, a little fudging of the facts there, and pretty soon you have an unbroken line all the way back ... except for the fact that there are a lot of holes in that bucket, dear Liza.

My own feeling about what is referred to as lineage is purely selfish: I'm just grateful for expositors whose instruction I find verifiable. I am also happy to have some people around who make me think I'm not as crazy (to be practicing this weird stuff) as I sometimes fear I might be. True, they may all be lunatics too, but at least I have some pleasant company.

Other than that ... well I guess I just don't know about lineage one way or the other.

zenff

The concept of lineage is not so bad imho. But the sangha-tree could use some pruning.
There’s no mechanism for that.

I think all we need is some way to take the Dharma transmission back from people when they make a mess of their job.

RichardH

As Stuart Lachs points out somewhere (and I am sorry not to have chapter and verse handy), the suggestion by any number of schools and sects that they can trace their lineage back 2,500 hundred years (all the way to Shakyamuni Buddha) may have its uses for sales purposes, but tends to crumble under direct scrutiny. A little fudging of the facts here, a little fudging of the facts there, and pretty soon you have an unbroken line all the way back ... except for the fact that there are a lot of holes in that bucket, dear Liza.

I wonder.. many people take the story of transmission from Vulture Peak as historical fact? I love the poetry...and leave it at that. I think of lineage in terms of a big old river of people practicing over time.. new contingencies arise.. new means devised, new myths.. We need myths I think... we will have them anyway.. so maybe some new myths are in order... because we are poetic things.

I am just grateful that I am no longer trapped in a hell of my own making... and appreciate the people who helped.

skullchin

@Invincible_summer, Brad does not like Ken Wilbur, Big Mind and Genpo Roshi. "A pox on their ilk!" is the short version of his opinion.

genkaku

Brad calls out the Zen of the morgue ... all those corpses lying around, basking in tradition, praising the wisdom, raking in 'compassionate' dough ... and yet completely lost when a shoe-lace breaks. To my mind, he posits the fact that Zen is for the living, the alive, in all of us. Not alive "like" anyone or anything else. Just alive. If he wants to bang tambourines or tweak noses in order to make his point, my feeling is, go for it! The prize is worth the price.

RichardH

Maybe he is not unlike Jundo Cohen.. He is provocative in public.. But a real sweet guy. .

Invincible_summer

So I really I'm all into Zen and punk music just like him.

Don't be into Zen. .. Zen Buddhism begins with the First Noble Truth... get into that.

Oh yeah and don't get 'all into Zen'. That's what he doesn't like

I just used that as a turn of phrase to mean that I'm more interested in Zen than other forms of Buddhism. I haven't read the Shobogenzo or anything... yet...

RichardH

I don't know Warner but know Jundo.. they had the same remarkable teacher...

here is Jundo..goofing/teaching...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMD3jvnLsBg


Here is their teacher...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G0Pdq1ESf0

It is a simple bio about a simple guy...

zenff

chanratt : Oh yeah and don't get 'all into Zen'. That's what he doesn't like

When - in my time Genpo - wore a leather jacket and a baseball cap, you could see students suddenly wearing leather jackets and baseball caps.

I think when you want to get into something “he” gets sarcastic about; just do it.
Everything we do is open to sarcasm and that should not stop us.

StaticToybox

I like Brad Warner quite a bit. In fact he's pretty much my favorite Buddhist teacher. Obviously that is, to a degree, because I related to him, having a similar background to an extant (growing up in the midwest U.S., the punk/metal thing, etc). But I appreciate his straightforward, no bullshit, somewhat iconoclastic approach.

As far as lineage, he does have it (as much as pretty much any other Buddhist teacher out there). But no, he doesn't attach himself to any specific sangha. He's a part of Dogen Sangha, but he'll admit that that's effectively nothing more than a name/loose association of some folks connected to Nishijima.

lamaramadingdong

I really enjoy his books and his self-promotion bothers me. He tends to be over-the-top with it and tries to present it as "I'm just joking"- I'm not so sure he really is.

chanratt

I really enjoy his books and his self-promotion bothers me. He tends to be over-the-top with it and tries to present it as "I'm just joking"- I'm not so sure he really is.

You mean the little footnotes he leaves on every other page? "please buy my other books" etc?

lamaramadingdong

I really enjoy his books and his self-promotion bothers me. He tends to be over-the-top with it and tries to present it as "I'm just joking"- I'm not so sure he really is.

You mean the little footnotes he leaves on every other page? "please buy my other books" etc?

Yeah, now that you mention it...