What happens to the body after death?

betaboy

Let's say X dies. He is cremated. If it's true that matter is never destroyed, then what happens to the corpse? It may be burnt, the form may now differ from that of X when he was alive, but every bit of matter is preserved, I suppose? So what happens to that unit of matter which we used to call X?

federica

It's not true that matter is never destroyed.
energy is never destroyed, certainly.
but here, there is transformation from one state to another...it has transformed, and will dissipate according to what happens next.
why does it matter?

Tosh

Bill Bryson reckons that it takes a couple of centuries, but eventually our atoms will be dissipated just about everywhere, and each of us will have atoms that once 'belonged' to famous people.

It's makes me quite nostalgic to think that I have an atom - maybe in my elbow - that used to belong to Julius Caesar at one time.

etherea

X becomes garden fertilizer, fish food, atoms of moisture in the air that cause rain, the world's your oyster. Haven't we been here before?

Dakini

The energy/matter of the cremated corpse transforms into ashes, smoke, fuel for the cremation fire. So part of it literally goes up in smoke. And flames/heat.

betaboy

It's not true that matter is never destroyed.
energy is never destroyed, certainly.
but here, there is transformation from one state to another...it has transformed, and will dissipate according to what happens next.
why does it matter?

Is this what rebirth is in the Buddhist context - because unlike Hinduism, there is no self or soul that transmigrates to another body?

Dakini

In the Tibetan tradition, the "very subtle mind", the "seed consciousness" leaves the body before cremation. They don't cremate until it's left the body, so rebirth isn't relevant to your OP question, at least, not the way you phrased it.

For a good explanation and footage of a Tibetan elder who dies, lama visiting the home after death to administer rites, then the cremation, and what happens to the "consciousness" afterwards, see the film, "The Tibetan Book of the Dead". It's available free online now, someone posted it to a thread recently. There is no "soul" that transmigrates, they call it "storehouse (or "seed") consciousness" (alaya vijnana, in Mahayana tradition). It carries with it the karmic imprint of the consciousnesses past lives.

Is this what rebirth is in the Buddhist context - because unlike Hinduism, there is no self or soul that transmigrates to another body?

betaboy

In the Tibetan tradition, the "very subtle mind", the "seed consciousness" leaves the body before cremation. They don't cremate until it's left the body, so rebirth isn't relevant to your OP question, at least, not the way you phrased it.

For a good explanation and footage of a Tibetan elder who dies, lama visiting the home after death to administer rites, then the cremation, and what happens to the "consciousness" afterwards, see the film, "The Tibetan Book of the Dead". It's available free online now, someone posted it to a thread recently.

Is this what rebirth is in the Buddhist context - because unlike Hinduism, there is no self or soul that transmigrates to another body?

Let me put it differently. According to the Buddha, consciousness does not exist independent of the body, so when the body dies, so does consciousness. So how is there rebirth?

Dakini

Can you provide a quote to support your claim about what the Buddha said? I've never heard that before.
The Buddha did speak about rebirth (though some say he didn't really believe what he was saying, he was just tailoring his teachings to a certain audience), and he spoke about 6 consciousnesses (8 in Mahayana). There's a certain amount of contradiction in the Buddha's teachings on the rebirth topic, that much I've learned from our rebirth debates.

betaboy

Can you provide a quote to support your claim about what the Buddha said? I've never heard that before.
The Buddha did speak about rebirth (though some say he didn't really believe what he was saying, he was just tailoring his teachings to a certain audience), and he spoke about 6 consciousnesses (8 in Mahayana). There's a certain amount of contradiction in the Buddha's teachings on the rebirth topic, that much I've learned from our rebirth debates.

I thought that was Buddhism 101, that consciousness is a dependent phenomenon and does not exist independently. If so, it would be advaita, not buddhism.

Dakini

haha! Well, we've had plenty of threads discussing similarities between advaita and Buddhism, but I guess it depends on whose Buddhism. How can there be a cycle of rebirth, from which we're supposed to liberate ourselves, if there's no continuity of consciousness? And remember, the Buddha himself had recall of his past lives.

Where's @taiyaki been lately? Haven't seen him posting for awhile. This is his department, esp. the advaita part. I just posted in detail on a recent thread how rebirth works in buddhism (in Theravada it's called "citta", in Mahayana "alaya vijnana" that triggers rebirth). Let me see if I can find that again.

person

Let me put it differently. According to the Buddha, consciousness does not exist independent of the body, so when the body dies, so does consciousness. So how is there rebirth?

I think there may be some confusion with terms here. Citta means mind, vijnana or cetana is the word for consciousness, I believe they are considered to be different things. I'm not really clear enough to describe the difference, hopefully someone up on Therevada can explain.

Dakini

Citta is considered to be an aspect of vijnana. Citta = alaya vijnana, the storehouse consciousness, the most subtle aspect of consciousness that holds the karmic seeds of our thoughts and actions.

I just posted details of this with references on 2 different threads about a week ago. I'm trying to find those threads.

Dakini

The Alaya vijnana = the causal consciousness, which accumulates all potential energy for the mental and physical manifestation of one' existence. It is the storehouse-consciousness which induces transmigration or rebirth, causing the origination of a new existence. The Sandhi-nirmocana Sutra says that citta is the alaya vijnana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Consciousnesses
http://www.purifymind.com/StoreConsciousness.htm

Here's a good thread in which Jason explains how in Theravada, the last consciousness of a being death is the condition that causes the arising of a new life. The Buddha's position on consciousness and dependent arising is also explained. http://www.newbuddhist.com/discussion/6407/rebirth

taiyaki

Matter is also another idea used to understand reality.

Why give matter objective existence?

vinlyn

^ You don't think you're made of matter?

person

In Tibetan lineage the lineage of vast deeds (compassion) is a seperate one from the lineage of wisdom. The compassion lineage starts with Asanga and then to Vasubandhu. Vasubandhu is the primary proponent of Yogacara or mind only philosophy. The wisdom lineage starts with Nagarjuna then Chandrakirti, they champion Madhyamika philosophy. One of the 5 texts that Tibetan monks are taught is Chandrakirti's Madyamakavatara. They get their main understanding for emptiness and mind from them not from Vasubandhu.

Yogacara means 'mind only', meaning that nothing external exists. This notion is rejected by Madhyamika. I don't really understand the philosophies enough to try to explain the distinction myself. But this link http://www.crvp.org/book/Series03/III-9/chapter_ii.htm does a pretty thorough job of it. Its complicated and philosophical but within the realm of philosophical papers relatively clear and easy to understand.

taiyaki

I think i am. Keyword think.

Do i know with absolute confidence?

Nope.

With enough focus in opened eye meditation the solidity of visual appearances break down. They swirl and dance.

The sensation of touch are just impressions of pressure.

The mind connects all of this and we call it material existence.

So i'm agnostic. But in everyday conversation i'll just agree that there appears to be materiality or physicality.

Dakini

@person Right, some of this analysis of the consciousness aggregate into three parts: citta, manas, and vijnana come from Asanga. But still, it seems like the Tibetan tradition overall has retained the belief in a subtle seed consciousness that transmigrates. Well, and according to Jason's post in the thread I linked, there's something related to that in Theravada, too. Maybe they wouldn't use the term "transmigration", but there's a basic principle of consciousness at death conditioning the arising of a new life and consciousness that is influenced by the previous consciousness. Jason compares this to entanglement theory, whereby object can influence each other at a tremendous distance.

person

@person Right, some of this analysis of the consciousness aggregate into three parts: citta, manas, and vijnana come from Asanga. But still, it seems like the Tibetan tradition overall has retained the belief in a subtle seed consciousness that transmigrates. Well, and according to Jason's post in the thread I linked, there's something related to that in Theravada, too. Maybe they wouldn't use the term "transmigration", but there's a basic principle of consciousness at death conditioning the arising of a new life and consciousness that is influenced by the previous consciousness. Jason compares this to entanglement theory, whereby object can influence each other at a tremendous distance.

Yeah, look I believe in rebirth. The distinction here is in the mechanism. I don't understand the difference, its pretty subtle. Since I don't understand it I'm trusting that the Tibetan monastic institution does, that's all.

Dakini

HHDL says it's the "very, very subtle mind" (alaya vijnana) that leaves the body at death and searches for a new rebirth. Have the Tibetans completely rejected the Yogacara School? It seems like they've retained some of those principles, which do explain the mechanism, that's all I was saying.

person

HHDL says it's the "very, very subtle mind" (alaya vijnana) that leaves the body at death and searches for a new rebirth. Have the Tibetans completely rejected the Yogacara School? It seems like they've retained some of those principles, which do explain the mechanism, that's all I was saying.

There is the gross mind, the mind of the senses. The subtle mind, the mind of thoughts? And the very subtle mind, or rigpa awarness, the clear light nature of mind. I've never heard of it referred to as the alaya vijnana though.

Yogacara and other philosophical schools are taught, just not as a final and complete understanding.

The only thing I know is that Yogacara says there is no external world, that everything appears in the mind. Since that is the belief it needs to posit a storehouse consciousness for the seed of the previous moment of consciousness to give rise to the present moment's consciousness, so that 'objects' and senses arise in dependence upon a preceding moment and not totally independently. Whereas in Madhyamika consciousness arises in dependence upon the senses meeting a sense object. Then Madhyamika rejects inherently existing external objects through interdependence, parts and wholes, impermance, etc.

I don't really like trying to explain it because, like I said I don't really understand it, so take it all with a grain of salt.

vinlyn

Good Taiyaki! I didn't really wanna have to hit you in the head with a 2X4 to prove that you were made of matter!

xabir

I thought that was Buddhism 101, that consciousness is a dependent phenomenon and does not exist independently. If so, it would be advaita, not buddhism.

Consciousness that arises in future lifetimes arise dependent on the karma of past lives.

In the //Milindapanha// the King asks Nagasena:

"What is it, Venerable Sir, that will be reborn?"

"A psycho-physical combination (//nama-rupa//), O King."

"But how, Venerable Sir? Is it the same psycho-physical
combination as this present one?"

"No, O King. But the present psycho-physical combination produces
kammically wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities, and
through such kamma a new psycho-physical combination will be
born."