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No-Limit Texas Hold 'em as my spiritual teacher

edited April 2012 in General Banter
I am an avid poker player. I am quite skilled and can be lethal at the card table on almost any given night. Although I am young, I believe that one day I may have what it takes to become a very successful poker player. Many view poker as just another form of gambling, even those who play it. They bet their money, hope to win, lose most of the time, win some of the time. However, poker is a game that is far more reliant on skill and talent than most other games that fall into the catagory of gambling. To be a successful poker player, one must cultivate attributes that extend far beyond the poker table. In fact, I believe that playing poker, for me, is one of the greatest tools in my life for reaching nirvana, enlightenment, whatever you want to call it. To be successful, to win, one must develop and maintain a multitude of qualities that are not exclusive to poker.

Patience is a necessity. At times, one must spend hours waiting for the right moment to strike. Dry spells lasting hours, weeks, and months can go by where one simply does not get the right cards and must patiently wait until luck rolls his way.

Humility is essential to success. In poker, any player can win at any given time, no matter how foolish or an experienced they may be, thanks to the luck of the draw. A successful player must understand that even when he does everything right, plays the hand perfectly, he still may lose all of his money in one foul swoop. This can be extremely difficult to accomplish, even after years of experience dealing with the sickening form of defeat when fate simply frowns upon you, despite how well you play.

One must maintain an exceptional degree of focus. Games can last for hours on end and an individual hand can require an extensive amount of thought and attention.

Understanding human behavior, being able to empathize is key. Although this empathy is used to ultimately defeat the one you are empathizing with, it still extends to everyday life and can develop your general sense of empathy when there is nothing to gain.

It's difficult to explain the vast intricacies of poker to those who are not familiar with it, but i wish to share my experience of an activity that most dismiss as another form of gambling and debauchery. For me, it is a way of life that improves my awareness and develops a variety of qualities that help me navigate through life. I am note sure of the Buddhist guidelines or "rules" when it comes to the subject of gambling, but to me, they are irrelevant. Poker enhances my mental prowess, inner focus, patience, humility, and understanding of human dynamics/relationships, and for that I am thankful.

Comments

  • I have been playing poker 'properly' since the age of 14, online since 16. I love poker, it requires a lot of skill, you can learn the rules in a day easily, but to learn the unwritten laws and moves takes a lifetime. I am actually probably as good at Omaha H/L as I am at NL holdem to be honest. I would love to have a live game with you and some friends, that would be fun :p
  • I am glad that someone here can understand my perspective. I am actually playing online right now, and doing well :)

    I am always down for a live game, not sure how that could be coordinated however.
  • Poker playing buddhists?
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    I dunno about that; gambling wrecks families and lives. It can be an addiction every bit as powerful as alcoholism or drug addiction.

    It sounds like you've done a good job at justifying it though. Maybe you should lose more regularly, on purpose; showing compassion for others maybe?

    Apologies for being negative. :o
  • Ha... Well I believe that I can often do much better things with the money that I earn playing, and I intend to. That's where my compassion sets in.

    And most people who wreck their lives and families lives due to gambling are not usually those playing poker. I would like to differentiate poker playing from gambling, because the skill component in poker far exceeds the luck component. Those who lose all of their money and ruin their lives are usually playing a game like black jack, 50/50 where the compulsion to bet away can become consuming.
  • If you really get into poker, you will understand it is a form of gambling that really is a lot less of a gamble compared to every other game in a casino if you are good at it. Unlike in games such as roulette or blackjack where you are playing the casino, in a poker tournament you are playing each other, so it is down to skill and luck, with math thrown in. The way a casino makes money from a tournament is they take normally around 10% of a buy in to the tourny.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    I guess I'm going to be negative on this also, as the OP has stated that poker is his "spiritual teacher." Perhaps a case might be made if we're only talking games for amusement.

    However, gambling as a Buddhist is covered in many teachings, and Suttas/Sutras. Not surprisingly the Buddha saw gambling as an unskillful activity. He said (Tipiṭaka/M.III,107): "There are these six dangers of being addicted to gambling. In winning one begets hatred; in losing one mourns the loss of one’s wealth; one’s word is not accepted in court; one is avoided by both friends and officials; one is not sought after for marriage because people say a gambler cannot support a wife."

    Personally, I'd say actual gambling (wagering) can in no way be a "spiritual teacher." But that's just me. Your mileage may vary. :)
  • I understand that few here can relate to my experience here considering their understanding of the differences between poker and gambling. I have read the six dangers of gambling but in this case I do not find them quite relevant. Only the concept of mourning the loss of one's wealth seems to apply...but even then, that helps me maintain a sense of humility, understanding that everyone wins and everyone loses and that my "success" is insignificant in the grand scheme of the universe.

  • I do not see it as a spiritual teacher nono, but it requires a lot of skills and abiliies to which the OP stated.
  • Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge the dangers and vices of gambling, for I have witnessed them first hand many times. It can most definitely be destructive and unskillful. I just wanted to show how an activity that many consider to be universally destructive can redeem itself in a way that can actually improve one's spiritual process. At least for me
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I used to play hold 'em quite a bit. I agree that is more a game of skill than it is gambling. The mechanics and math can be picked up fairly easy, its the psychology of playing your hand, they way and when you bet and reading the others players ques to read what they are holding.

    I stopped playing though because I found that a certain amount of deception is an inherent part of the game. Even when playing online against weaker players, if I played pretty much straight up and let them make all the mistakes I'd do well but still have to try to decieve, not in bluffing, but in trying to manipulate what the other players might think I had in terms of cards. To try to intimidate them off of a hand when I felt that maybe they had me beat but weren't that confident about their own cards.

    So while I don't feel its gambling I do think there is deception and a type of aggression and desire to beat other people in the game that detract from Buddhist practice.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran

    So while I don't feel its gambling I do think there is deception and a type of aggression and desire to beat other people in the game that detract from Buddhist practice.
    Agreed.

    And most people who wreck their lives and families lives due to gambling are not usually those playing poker. I would like to differentiate poker playing from gambling, because the skill component in poker far exceeds the luck component. Those who lose all of their money and ruin their lives are usually playing a game like black jack, 50/50 where the compulsion to bet away can become consuming.
    I've met a lot of people "playing to pay the rent", even though this sort of thing is usually advised against. I've witnessed people praying over hands because they needed the money that badly. I watch a lot of people lose more than they can afford because, "you need to spend money to make money." Just because poker requires skill does not mean that someone with a gambling addiction wouldn't play it. There are certain people that I consider moderately good players, and yet, they don't know when to stop. If they are up, they keep playing until it is all gone. That's addiction. (I work in a poker room.)
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    I just wanted to show how an activity that many consider to be universally destructive can redeem itself in a way that can actually improve one's spiritual process. At least for me
    So true - we all have our path to walk and there's nothing stopping every moment of that being a path of practice...

  • I used to play hold 'em quite a bit. I agree that is more a game of skill than it is gambling. The mechanics and math can be picked up fairly easy, its the psychology of playing your hand, they way and when you bet and reading the others players ques to read what they are holding.

    I stopped playing though because I found that a certain amount of deception is an inherent part of the game. Even when playing online against weaker players, if I played pretty much straight up and let them make all the mistakes I'd do well but still have to try to decieve, not in bluffing, but in trying to manipulate what the other players might think I had in terms of cards. To try to intimidate them off of a hand when I felt that maybe they had me beat but weren't that confident about their own cards.

    So while I don't feel its gambling I do think there is deception and a type of aggression and desire to beat other people in the game that detract from Buddhist practice.
    I agree, one must be quite deceptive in order to play successfully. I believe, however, that this form of deception does not need to extend beyond the poker table. It is a game where two people agree to attempt to deceive each other order to win. Both players understand that this is a large component of the game , so it's almost not deception in the true sense of the word. One expects to be deceived simply as a function of the game.

    As for aggression, I do not feel that all forms of aggression necessarily detract from Buddhist practice. For example, Basketball is a game that requires a tremendous amount of aggression in order to be successful . "Attacking the basket" is a phrased commonly used when referring to offense. One must relentlessly pursue the basketball on defense and "pressure" his opponent. Does this mean that basketball detracts from Buddhist practice because one most be aggressive in order to win? Well, it can, just as anything can detract from Buddhist practice when not practiced skillfully. But it most certainly does not have to, and can actually help in some way or another to enhance one's mindfulness. Just as poker does for me.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    I didn't have an issue with the ethics of deception or aggression in the game, because as you said, these tactics are agreed upon by those playing. For me though, these mindsets didn't stay at the table. I found them carrying over to my everyday life, much the way that the experience of meditation doesn't just stay on the cusion but carries over into everyday life.

    I did learn alot about people and in learning about any tells I may have, about myself. There are also lessons to be learned about keeping an even keel and not going on tilt, about looking at the big picture and not getting caught up in the outcome of a single hand.

    Its your life, I'm just telling my experience with it.
  • Ahh I see. I suppose that it could be easy for these mindsets to stick with people in every day life after practicing them at the poker table. I guess I have just found a way to keep the two separate, for the most part. Thank you for sharing.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    The Zen Of Poker. You have a book in your future! Seriously! You write well, when inspired. :)
    My game is Mah Jongg. Originally a gambling game, though I don't play it that way.
  • Op, it doesn't matter what your proverbial "art " is ...you seem to be trying to perfect your chosen profession...it takes a lot of discipline!

    Kinda of reminds me of the article on the new Buddhist home page.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    The Zen Of Poker. You have a book in your future! Seriously! You write well, when inspired. :)
    My game is Mah Jongg. Originally a gambling game, though I don't play it that way.
    Oh my gosh. Until I watched an entire season of an anime that revolved around a Mah Jongg club, I had no idea that there was a difference between that and what I had been thinking of as Mah Jongg for years (like the computer one). What a complicated game.
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited April 2012
    I prefer chess.
    No luck elements, you lose if you can't...outthink your opponont. That's it.
    More honest.
    And. no gambling or better or bluffing (bluffing is lying in my opinion).
    Tried poker. Didn't feel right.

    For a chance game: I prefer backgammon. It too has a betting element (ante dice) but you don't need to use it. You can just play, and have a bit of casual fun.

    Mah Jongg is nice too. For puzzle solving that is. And I rally really really like 'GO'
    The most complicated 'old-school' game i've ever encountered.
    Have to be honest tough, I don't really get GO at the endgames, so I hardly play it.

    Chess....is my first true game-love.
    (battlechess on my fathers old XT computer 22 years ago)
  • Poker is very convenient for a means to make some money here and there, sit down, make some coffee/tea whatever, click a table and play. Also very convenient in losing money quite easily. Still, I like chess and poker, poker seems to have more of an atmopshere about it though, an atmosphere I find enjoyable.
  • The Zen Of Poker. You have a book in your future! Seriously! You write well, when inspired. :)
    My game is Mah Jongg. Originally a gambling game, though I don't play it that way.
    Thank you for the compliment :) I appreciate the suggestion. Perhaps I will come up with a book someday
  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    I play seven card stud, personally. U.S. Congress Rules.

    U.S. Congress rules are that no money is bet. So we waste a lot of time doing nothing. No one comes out on top, nothing is accomplished, and the audience is bored to death. Keeps the mind sharp, though.
  • Cribbage is my teacher- like life, it's short, a balance of luck and skill, and if you don't pay attention others will capitalize on your mistakes.
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