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Dalai Lama Retires From Politics

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    There is little words can express at such a sad article.
    I feel extremely sorry for HH the DL, and partly, I condemn the so-called 'superpowers' who frankly are blatantly far more interested in finance, commerce and profit, than human lives.
    It can't be an easy thing for him to negotiate such sensitive issues, and as the saying goes, "You can please some of the people all of the time....."
    I'll either record the programme or watch it....
  • He has never had it easy though has he, from a young boy up until today, his life has been high profile or under some sort of threat, yet he is always smiling and has a huge heart. I almost can feel the warmth from him if I see certain pictures. I am sure however that if someone is going to be prepared for such a situation, he is the guy.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Good for him. Bad for us.
  • Well it is not really good for anybody. He will have a lot on his mind about this obvously. He has spent most of his life in excile trying to free his people, trying to bring peace to the world. It must be hard to see things fail like this.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    One reason talks with the Chinese have failed is that the DL never got the Tibetans in exile on board with his "Middle Way" approach, his peaceful approach. The Chinese would listen to his representatives negotiating for inner autonomy for Tibet, but they would see Tibetans worldwide protesting for a "Free Tibet". Guess who they believed?
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    One reason talks with the Chinese have failed is that the DL never got the Tibetans in exile on board with his "Middle Way" approach, his peaceful approach. The Chinese would listen to his representatives negotiating for inner autonomy for Tibet, but they would see Tibetans worldwide protesting for a "Free Tibet". Guess who they believed?
    Doesn't help the CIA helped his brother train up an armed resistance movement either.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    No influence world-wide has really gotten the Chinese to change their attitudes much. So, the DL was in a no-win situation.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    Doesn't help the CIA helped his brother train up an armed resistance movement either.
    heh. oops. Yes, indeed.

  • SileSile Veteran
    edited April 2012
    People have a right to defend themselves. If one country brutally invades, the victims certainly have the right to accept help from another country. Tibet is not China's, and China has done little but brutalize the Tibetan people and rape the land. All the Chinese government's flimsy boasting about "infrastructure" refers to something the Tibetan people did not ask for, and certainly would not have preferred over the lives of their own murdered family members. The Panchen Lama, a longtime worker himself for the Party, in the end stated that it had not been worth it; that the Chinese had taken far more than they had given, and had doomed Tibetans to intolerable hardships, including the first famine in Tibet's history. I wish the CIA and 100 other organizations had swooped in to help Tibet. Quite frankly, ANY leadership other than North Korean would have been kinder.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    The point isn't about whether or not they have a right to defend themselves. It's just a simple political fact that having been associated with the CIA doesn't enhance the DL's bargaining potential with the Chinese. The CIA abandoned the Tibetans anyway, so their erstwhile "support" achieved nothing positive. What a waste. Your tax dollars at work.
  • BonsaiDougBonsaiDoug Simply, on the path. Veteran
    As an aside:

    Dalai Lama to receive 2012 Templeton Prize in London on May 14

    As we [BuddhaDharma Quarterly] reported in late March, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the recipient of the 2012 Templeton Prize — an honor bestowed upon those deemed to have made an “exceptional contribution to affirming life’s spiritual dimension, whether through insight, discovery, or practical works.”

    His Holiness will receive the honor this May 14, at 1:45 PM (GMT), during a ceremony at St. Paul’s Cathedral in London. You can view the ceremony online at www.templetonprize.org from 8:45 to 10:00 AM (EST) or 5:45 to 7:00 AM (PDT).
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    I saw a recent news interview with DL, he seemed quite despondent and felt his conciliatory approach on Tibetan autonomy with the Chinese government had been a failure.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited April 2012
    I saw a recent news interview with DL, he seemed quite despondent and felt his conciliatory approach on Tibetan autonomy with the Chinese government had been a failure.
    He shouldn't take it personally. Nothing can win against the Chinese, especially when it relates to "minority policy" and territorial issues. China is trying to gobble up more territory (from India, Philippines, Taiwan, etc.), not give it away, or allow autonomy over it.

    @BonsaiDoug Cool. :) Thx for the good news.

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited April 2012
    I personally am not so sure what the huge deal is about "Freeing Tibet." I sometimes feel that the only reason why people are up in arms about Tibet is because HHDL is highly regarded by many people ( I think HHDL has become "The Buddhist Pope" in most non-Buddhist's eyes. :p ), and it happens to be his pet issue for an obvious reason.

    Why focus on this one issue? Just because we happen to identify as Buddhist?

    Isn't this how the world - how samsara - is? I'm not necessarily saying we should be blase to conflict and suffering, but why be up in arms about something we can't necessarily control?

    Btw, for trivia's sake, in Buddha or Bust by Perry Garfinkel (a terribly dry, Euro-centric read, IMO), he goes to HHDL's home village and asks people about the whole PRC-occupation thing. The people he talked to basically said they don't know what the big deal is about since they haven't noticed anything significantly different in their lifestyle. They can still be Buddhist and do as they please.

    I think most of the conflict arises from the West and, as @Dakini said, the Tibetan monks in China and elsewhere who are not taking a "Middle Way" approach and getting arrested/tortured/etc.
    People have a right to defend themselves. If one country brutally invades, the victims certainly have the right to accept help from another country. Tibet is not China's, and China has done little but brutalize the Tibetan people and rape the land.
    Feudal Tibet wasn't sunshine-and-roses either...
    I wish the CIA and 100 other organizations had swooped in to help Tibet.
    The CIA did funnel money. And 100 NGOs mean 100 competing interests. There are hundreds of NGOs working to "save Africa" and whatnot... what's going on with that? There seems to be even more conflict.
    Quite frankly, ANY leadership other than North Korean would have been kinder.
    This is just blatant Sinophobia.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I think the Tibet issue, for most people who talk about it, is just that -- talk. It's slapping a bumper sticker on their car, or something along that nature. And I think you're right, a lot of it is because they are Buddhist and identify with the DL.

    Let's face it...Americans don't know much about Asia. When I was a principal, usually in the spring teachers would start asking if I was going to Thailand during the upcoming summer. But a surprisingly large number of well-educated people would ask me if I was going to Taiwan, and when I told them it was Thailand, many would say, "Same thing, isn't it?"

    Then we have those who say, "somebody should do something", but if someone suggests the CIA, then they go off on another rant.

    Talk. Empty talk 95% of the time. Let them put their money where their mouth is.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I personally am not so sure what the huge deal is about "Freeing Tibet."

    Perry Garfinkel (a terribly dry, Euro-centric read, IMO), goes to HHDL's home village and asks people about the whole PRC-occupation thing. The people he talked to basically said they don't know what the big deal is about since they haven't noticed anything significantly different in their lifestyle. They can still be Buddhist and do as they please.
    Well, the Chinese shouldn't be torturing people. And massive population transfers (all those Han Chinese sent to live in Tibet, or given incentives to live in Tibet) are considered a human rights violation under international law. BUT:

    It has never been clarified who would run a "free" Tibet. Would the theocracy be reinstalled? A secular gov't, or a mix of monks and lay politicians? Monks aren't supposed to be politicians, and yet to work in old Tibet's gov't, one had to wear robes and keep to vows, according to some reports. Genuine autonomy would be good, if the Chinese could be relied upon to honor that over generations, and changes in leadership. No country's done a good job of granting autonomy to ethnic minorities or indigenous peoples, not even the US, which supposedly honors a "government-to-government" relationship with the Native nations.

    It's true about most of the Tibetan cultural areas being able to continue practicing Buddhism. I've seen films of Western tulkus going back to the village their reincarnation came from, and everyone has greeted them warmly, including the local Chinese official overseeing everything. But other areas are suffering crackdowns.

    HHDL's village was completely rebuilt 2 years ago. Everyone's home was torn down, and the gov't built new traditional-style homes for everyone. The gov't wants to turn the village into a tourist attraction.

    All I can say about the whole issue is, "it's complicated". Sometimes it's best to stay out of these complex issues, and leave them to the people directly concerned. I was not in support of a Free Tibet, because the DL wasn't. But how realistic is his hope for an autonomous Tibet within China? And does it matter what side we're on, if in the final analysis, the future for Tibet looks bleak?

    *sighh*

  • SileSile Veteran
    I was raised in China, as was my Dad. The best way to feel what the Chinese regime is like, really be able to feel it in your bones, is to go to areas where the regime behaves at its worst, or where it constantly threatens to. This is the most direct way to understand the urgency facing Tibetans and other occupied peoples. The world really has been mislead into believing the CCP is genuinely about peaceful rise, or that it's in any way close to being an equitable, decent system of government at home.

    This isn't really Sinophonia, it comes from direct experience. I remain extremely fond of the country of my childhood, love the Chinese language and if course all my Chinese friends and family.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I can't imagine what part of the world believes the CCP is about peaceful rise, or that it's an equitable, decent system. Who believes Chinese propaganda? :confused:
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited April 2012
    I can't imagine what part of the world believes the CCP is about peaceful rise, or that it's an equitable, decent system. Who believes Chinese propaganda? :confused:
    China talks a very convincing game about peaceful rise - and certainly, the Chinese government really doesn't want war any more than anyone else. It would prefer to conquer little bits of land through subtle political encroachment; and since the West is dropping bombs on Afghan kids, we really don't have a leg to stand on, governmentally speaking, in criticizing China for committing much violence outside its own (or occupied) territories.

    Sadly, our American school districts (and I believe some English and Australian ones as well) are buying into some of the CCP propaganda. An increasing number are, understandably yet naively, accepting large sums of money from the Chinese government in exchange for establishing "Confucius Classrooms."

    The Confucius Classrooms are an outreach program of the CCP's education department. They aren't that nefarious yet, in practice--I mean, American kids aren't wearing Young Pioneer scarves or anything. But you can be sure that when it comes time for the exchange teachers to teach the world history bits, it will be from the CCP perspective, to the extent they're able to get away with it.

    If you watch some of the opening ceremonies for these Confucius Classrooms, complete with huge red banners, it's sometimes hard to tell, without more context, whether the footage is from Ottumwa or Beijing, lol. Laughable at the moment, but a little icky underneath it all.

    I'm all for cultural exchange; however this program is designed and administered by the Chinese government. I just can't believe, that after three generations of fleeing this blasted political party, my girls might be the fourth. Each generation said to itself, "Well, it will probably come to a natural end in my lifetime." Instead, the Party now has nukes and is directly teaching American elementary students (granted, a small number so far). I don't feel I'm Sinophobic, but at this point I definitely admit to being Party-phobic.

    The Party's subtle, incessant message that people should give up freedoms in exchange for "political stability" is the kind of thing that sadly suffocates creativity, self-image, self-confidence, artistic freedom, and eventually the "biggies" like freedom of the press and assembly.

    How many times in history have we looked at a totalitarianized nation and asked, "Why couldn't they see it coming?" When an organization as controlling and powerful as the CCP is involved, I think a certain level of phobia is healthy.






  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    The world really has been mislead into believing the CCP is genuinely about peaceful rise, or that it's in any way close to being an equitable, decent system of government at home.
    Really? If anything, I feel like it's another Red Scare-era returning.
    This isn't really Sinophonia, it comes from direct experience.
    Okay, Sinophobia may be an extreme term to use. But at the same time, you can't objectively say that the PRC is just one step below the DPRK in totalitarianism. You may harbor negative feelings towards the CCP, but would the Burmese junta or Somalian warlords be better than the CCP, as you seem to claim? I doubt it.
    I can't imagine what part of the world believes the CCP is about peaceful rise, or that it's an equitable, decent system. Who believes Chinese propaganda? :confused:
    No imperialist nation is about "peaceful rise." I understand we're focusing on the PRC because of the topic at hand, but I just wanted to put that out there.
    China talks a very convincing game about peaceful rise - and certainly, the Chinese government really doesn't want war any more than anyone else. It would prefer to conquer little bits of land through subtle political encroachment; and since the West is dropping bombs on Afghan kids, we really don't have a leg to stand on, governmentally speaking, in criticizing China for committing much violence outside its own (or occupied) territories.

    Sadly, our American school districts (and I believe some English and Australian ones as well) are buying into some of the CCP propaganda. An increasing number are, understandably yet naively, accepting large sums of money from the Chinese government in exchange for establishing "Confucius Classrooms."

    The Confucius Classrooms are an outreach program of the CCP's education department. They aren't that nefarious yet, in practice--I mean, American kids aren't wearing Young Pioneer scarves or anything. But you can be sure that when it comes time for the exchange teachers to teach the world history bits, it will be from the CCP perspective, to the extent they're able to get away with it.

    If you watch some of the opening ceremonies for these Confucius Classrooms, complete with huge red banners, it's sometimes hard to tell, without more context, whether the footage is from Ottumwa or Beijing, lol. Laughable at the moment, but a little icky underneath it all.

    I'm all for cultural exchange; however this program is designed and administered by the Chinese government. I just can't believe, that after three generations of fleeing this blasted political party, my girls might be the fourth. Each generation said to itself, "Well, it will probably come to a natural end in my lifetime." Instead, the Party now has nukes and is directly teaching American elementary students (granted, a small number so far). I don't feel I'm Sinophobic, but at this point I definitely admit to being Party-phobic.

    The Party's subtle, incessant message that people should give up freedoms in exchange for "political stability" is the kind of thing that sadly suffocates creativity, self-image, self-confidence, artistic freedom, and eventually the "biggies" like freedom of the press and assembly.

    How many times in history have we looked at a totalitarianized nation and asked, "Why couldn't they see it coming?" When an organization as controlling and powerful as the CCP is involved, I think a certain level of phobia is healthy.

    How is this any different from the United States? Every imperialist nation has its propaganda. It just so happens that the PRC's has a red flag attached to it (despite them straying far from their roots), and people get their Cold War panties in a knot.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    What "Confucius classrooms", what American school districts??!!
    Hard to believe anyone would go for this without a fuss, given how many Taiwanese, Hong Kong, Tibetan, etc. communities there are around the US.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I can't imagine what part of the world believes the CCP is about peaceful rise, or that it's an equitable, decent system. Who believes Chinese propaganda? :confused:
    China talks a very convincing game about peaceful rise - and certainly, the Chinese government really doesn't want war any more than anyone else. It would prefer to conquer little bits of land through subtle political encroachment; and since the West is dropping bombs on Afghan kids, we really don't have a leg to stand on, governmentally speaking, in criticizing China for committing much violence outside its own (or occupied) territories.

    Sadly, our American school districts (and I believe some English and Australian ones as well) are buying into some of the CCP propaganda. An increasing number are, understandably yet naively, accepting large sums of money from the Chinese government in exchange for establishing "Confucius Classrooms."

    The Confucius Classrooms are an outreach program of the CCP's education department. They aren't that nefarious yet, in practice--I mean, American kids aren't wearing Young Pioneer scarves or anything. But you can be sure that when it comes time for the exchange teachers to teach the world history bits, it will be from the CCP perspective, to the extent they're able to get away with it.

    If you watch some of the opening ceremonies for these Confucius Classrooms, complete with huge red banners, it's sometimes hard to tell, without more context, whether the footage is from Ottumwa or Beijing, lol. Laughable at the moment, but a little icky underneath it all.

    I'm all for cultural exchange; however this program is designed and administered by the Chinese government. I just can't believe, that after three generations of fleeing this blasted political party, my girls might be the fourth. Each generation said to itself, "Well, it will probably come to a natural end in my lifetime." Instead, the Party now has nukes and is directly teaching American elementary students (granted, a small number so far). I don't feel I'm Sinophobic, but at this point I definitely admit to being Party-phobic.

    The Party's subtle, incessant message that people should give up freedoms in exchange for "political stability" is the kind of thing that sadly suffocates creativity, self-image, self-confidence, artistic freedom, and eventually the "biggies" like freedom of the press and assembly.

    How many times in history have we looked at a totalitarianized nation and asked, "Why couldn't they see it coming?" When an organization as controlling and powerful as the CCP is involved, I think a certain level of phobia is healthy.


    I'm quite familiar with the Asia Society, which sponsors this program. Could you please show me some information where this program is criticized by any legitimate organization?

  • SileSile Veteran
    Relevant snips from Wiki (well-annotated):

    "The Confucius Institute program began in 2004 and is financed by the quasi-governmental Office of Chinese Language Council International (colloquially, Hanban 汉办), which describes itself as a non-government, non-profit organization that is affiliated with the Ministry of Education of the People's Republic of China...The related Confucius Classroom program partners with secondary schools or school districts to provide Chinese language teachers and instructional materials. As of July 2010, there were 316 Confucius Institutes and 337 Confucius Classrooms in 94 countries and regions.

    A number of the more serious concerns and controversies surrounding the Confucius Institutes stems from its relationship to the Chinese party-state. Hanban, the body which administers Confucius Institutes, states on its website that it is a non-profit, non-government organization, though it is connected with China’s Ministry of Education and has close ties to a number of senior Communist Party officials. The current chair of Hanban is Politburo member Liu Yandong, former head of the United Front Work Department of the Communist Party of China.

    The Economist notes that China "has been careful not to encourage these language centres to act as overt purveyors of the party’s political viewpoints, and little suggests they are doing so", but also noted the important goal of give the world a “correct” understanding of China, as well as efforts in opposing Chinese dissident groups abroad, such as Tibetan independent activists, democracy groups and the Falun Gong."

    As for the Confucius Institutes' opposition of dissident groups, by way of perspective, a Syrian-American was recently arrested and charged with several criminal counts, based primarily on the fact he was taking pictures of Syrian democracy marches in the United States. If Chinese nationals were prosecuted under the same rules, a sizable number of exchange students in my town--and in all likelihood, professors--would be up on similar charges for their work photographing Tibetans in Madison, Wisconsin, under the auspices of the China Consulate-Chicago.

    "According to Fabrice De Pierrebourg and Michel Juneau-Katsuya, a number of individuals holding positions within the Confucius Institute system have backgrounds in Chinese security agencies and United Front Work Department, “which manages important dossiers concerning foreign countries. These include propaganda, the control of Chinese students abroad, the recruiting of agents among the Chinese diaspora (and among sympathetic foreigners), and long-term clandestine operations."

    Canadian intelligence official David Matas feels that, "informally [the institutes] become a vehicle that the Chinese government uses to basically intimidate the academic institutions to run according to their guise and also as a vehicle for infiltration and spying into the campuses to find out what's going on hostile to their interest."

    That's already too many snips, so here's the link - very fascinating and thought-provoking. Even as I mentioned the Confucius Institutes here earlier today, I had no idea quite how widely established they now are.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_and_controversies_over_Confucius_Institutes

  • SileSile Veteran
    edited April 2012
    Here's an example of current public initiatives to resist the Confucius Institutes (and classrooms):

    http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-of-assembly/petitions/e-petition?PetNum=1853

    "I'm most concerned about what might happen in the long run," said Matthew Sommer, an associate professor of Chinese history at Stanford. "The program seems to be expanding exponentially in the United States and around the world, and inevitably it's going to have an increasing influence on the way Chinese studies is taught in the U.S. and elsewhere. It's not so much what might happen right now, but what might happen 15 years from now, or 20 years from now."

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2012-01-04/chinese-funded-institutes-us-colleges/52378280/1

    I'll stop there...a ton of thought-provoking reading in these links alone, but a Google search will turn up a good deal more if you're interested.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    It seems as if you're talking about potential, rather than some actual problem that has occurred.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited April 2012
    During Hu Jintao's visit to Ottawa in June 2010, China embassy official Liu Shaohua was caught on tape leading a large group wearing "Montreal Confucius Institute" T-shirts in shouting down the democracy protestors who had gathered. Confucius Institutes are touted as being "completely non-political," and are definitely not supposed to include embassy officials in the ranks.

    In the memoranda of understanding when signing the Confucius Institutes deals, American universities must state their support for a "One-China Policy." This is troubling, because it means that professors at Chinese history, and discuss, for example Taiwan's view, may receive strong pressure to cease discussing it, given that China can threaten to yank the university's Confucius funds based on that discussion. It's really ill-advised to allow any government, plus the added influence of large amounts of funding, to influence freedom of discussion and freedom of curriculum.

    “There is a whole list of proscribed topics,” said June Teufel Dreyer, who teaches Chinese government and foreign policy at the University of Miami.

    “You’re told not to discuss the Dalai Lama — or to invite the Dalai Lama to campus. Tibet, Taiwan, China’s military buildup, factional fights inside the Chinese leadership — these are all off limits.”

    How can any institute of higher learning claim to be acting ethically if it begins declaring foreign policy topics off-limits, in exchange for money? The very course of study at many of these schools includes trying to prepare students for careers in foreign affairs - how can that happen with certain foreign affairs topics are censored?

    According to an article by London correspondent for the Nation, D.D. Guttenplan, March 05, 2012, one junior faculty member at a U.S. campus with a Confucius Institute responded to a reporter’s recent query with an e-mail explaining that to be identified as a critic could end his career: “I am an untenured professor in a department which receives a lot of money from a Confucius Institute, which is run by senior faculty that will vote on my tenure case.” (http://chinhdangvu.blogspot.com/2012/03/critics-worry-about-influence-of.html)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ^^ So, universities know the guidelines up front and can decide to participate, or not. Hmmmm...still don't see where anything wrong is being done.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited April 2012
    Well, when any foreign national, acting under the auspices of his/her government works to collect information on, or harass, Canadian and American citizens, that can in many cases be a violation of federal law (as can be seen in the Syrian incident).

    Arts and education definitely deteriorate when they become narrowly-defined political instruments rather than broad-minded exchange. From China Rhyming, December 29th, 2011:

    "On the upper floors there are some good displays about Chinese-Australian life – the long slow march to equality for the community and some lovely old artifacts. However, there is a rather shameful display of modern China with maps of China that don’t feature Taipei as a capital, Taiwan as a province etc etc – all sponsored by the nasty local Confucius Institute that spread Beijing’s view of the world. Shame on the University of Melbourne and the Victoria State Government Department of Education and Child Development for being involved in this distortion that pushes Beijing’s view of Chinese history and geography – the taxpayers of Victoria deserve something a little better I would suggest. The government and academia in Melbourne should be smarter than to allow the unquestioningly pro-Beijing CI and their hard core no debate anti-Taiwan attitudes into an otherwise well balanced museum."

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    ^^ Don't get me wrong. I'm a former school principal, and if this program was offered to me, I would have turned it down because it makes me uncomfortable. However, that doesn't necessarily mean I see anything wrong...just the potential. Many countries have cultural programs that quite naturally have a point of view. The US has such programs. We had an English teacher who was invited on an all-expense-paid junket to China to visit schools and educational institutions. But there was no pressure for her to do anything at all. I also note some of the professional American groups that are involved in the program, and they are quite conservative.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited April 2012
    And for a bit of comic relief before signing off:

    Soft Power Smackdown! Confucius Institute vs. Taiwan Academy

    http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/08/12/soft-power-smackdown-confucius-institute-vs-taiwan-academy/?mod=WSJBlog

    [Just saw your last msg come in, vinlyn! I understand what you're saying. As with the Chinese Student & Scholars Association issue, more evidence of wrongdoing would make it easier to pass judgement on the program. I do think the basic principle of an institution accepting money from a foreign government, in exchange for censoring certain topics, is unethical, at least by most universities' mission statements. Unethical for many reasons, not the least of which is that it risks binding individual East Asian Studies professors to what is in effect a gag order on what they may discuss and teach. I'll check into the conservative ones you mentioned - it would be interesting to see if they are having discussions on this.]
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    edited April 2012
    So what's the lesser evil here, @Sile - censoring the censored education/propaganda, or allowing for the programs to go ahead and have a bit of CCP-approved education available - not mandatory or forced upon every single student - to students?

    I still don't see how this is any different from history lessons given by any country. In Canada, the US, Japan, S. Korea, etc, the history books are full of propaganda, full of missing facts and half-truths.

    You're shouting censorship being unethical. Well, how is censoring the censored curriculum objectively better? Would you support banning/censoring any websites that contain information that, in your eyes, is unfair and biased? For example, a pro "One-China Policy" website? What about the freedom for people to support the politics they want to support? Would you support a Taiwan independence movement-sponsored education institute?

    I know I sound like a complete shill for the PRC, but I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to get you to see that the PRC is just flexing its muscles like any other imperialist (or aspiring imperialist) nation does. Take off your Red Scare-tinted glasses for a second, is all I'm saying.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    There is much that elected, Christian school boards do to alter curriculum to support a biblical worldview or efforts to remove mentions of slavery as a reason for the civil war. Is that ok then too, if what China is doing is fine? After all they have been elected and are following the law.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited April 2012
    Christian schools can do what they like, certainly - and so can public institutes, for that matter. However, if they agree to censor certain subjects at the whim of a foreign government while at the same time the university's mission statement claims, as mine does, something like the following:

    "The primary purpose of the University of Wisconsin–Madison is to provide a learning environment in which faculty, staff and students can discover, examine critically, preserve and transmit the knowledge, wisdom and values that will help ensure the survival of this and future generations...."

    ...then they must amend the "examine critically" part.

    In a free society, people can pretty much do as they like. However, if, due to agreements with foreign governments, staff and students are no longer free to "examine critically" issues that deal with China, then the mission statement must be amended.

    I should add that public institutes are free to do as they like only to the extent that the voters allow; if the UW sells out on its mission statement and the voting public doesn't like it, they are free to (hopefully) vote in a new administration who will get things back on the democratic track we started out on.

    The problem is not China saying what it wants to say. The problem is China trying to tell others what they can and can't say.
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    edited April 2012
    Can someone tell me, what is HHDL's view of the self-immolations? Are these supported as a middle-way/non-violent type opposition to the Chinese?

    I wouldn't be asking, but I am confused about some of the reactions to the self-immolation. A while back, I posted Robert Thurman's perspective that he posted on his facebook:
    It is a tragic and yet heroic thing that so many young and older Tibetan monks and nuns are offering their bodies to the flames to appeal to the world's heart to have compassion for the plight of the spiritual people of Tibet, under the harsh boots of the Chinese dictatorship. No one tells them to do it - in fact their mentors tell them not to even think of it, since they should bear whatever suffering inflicted on them with patience and use their precious human lives to develop their wisdom and compassion and attain buddhahood for the sake of all living beings. Yet their is a tradition within the spiritual heroes and heroines of Buddhism to offer the body out of altruism, love, and the joy of freedom, never motivated by hatred or anger. They do believe that dying in that positively motivated way leads to a better rebirth where they can continue to serve all beings, so they grit their teeth and bear the agony to teach others that material possessions and dominance and force are not the be all and end all. Their act is the absolute opposite of the suicide bomber who self-destructs with the agenda of hatred in order to kill others. These give away their body out of love, not to harm, to offer others, even if the message is subliminal to those obsessed with power, a vision of freedom from bondage to anything. If you watch this, be reverent and open your heart and pray that all oppressors everywhere are moved to relent and relax their grip - let free and be free themselves!
    -Robert Thurman
    Is this the typical view of self-immolation within TB? I'm not sure if I can wrap my head around it.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Can someone tell me, what is HHDL's view of the self-immolations? Are these supported as a middle-way/non-violent type opposition to the Chinese?

    I wouldn't be asking, but I am confused about some of the reactions to the self-immolation. A while back, I posted Robert Thurman's perspective that he posted on his facebook:
    It is a tragic and yet heroic thing that so many young and older Tibetan monks and nuns are offering their bodies to the flames to appeal to the world's heart to have compassion for the plight of the spiritual people of Tibet, under the harsh boots of the Chinese dictatorship. No one tells them to do it - in fact their mentors tell them not to even think of it, since they should bear whatever suffering inflicted on them with patience and use their precious human lives to develop their wisdom and compassion and attain buddhahood for the sake of all living beings. Yet their is a tradition within the spiritual heroes and heroines of Buddhism to offer the body out of altruism, love, and the joy of freedom, never motivated by hatred or anger. They do believe that dying in that positively motivated way leads to a better rebirth where they can continue to serve all beings, so they grit their teeth and bear the agony to teach others that material possessions and dominance and force are not the be all and end all. Their act is the absolute opposite of the suicide bomber who self-destructs with the agenda of hatred in order to kill others. These give away their body out of love, not to harm, to offer others, even if the message is subliminal to those obsessed with power, a vision of freedom from bondage to anything. If you watch this, be reverent and open your heart and pray that all oppressors everywhere are moved to relent and relax their grip - let free and be free themselves!
    -Robert Thurman
    Is this the typical view of self-immolation within TB? I'm not sure if I can wrap my head around it.
    The actual view is that throwing away ones precious human life for political activity is very wrong. Dont take Bob Thurman or His Holiness at face value what they say is quagmired with politics, Only very highly accomplished Bodhisattva's give their lives away to benefit others and these people are more then likely not high Bodhisattva's but rather those clinging to nationalistic delusions.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    Can someone tell me, what is HHDL's view of the self-immolations? Are these supported as a middle-way/non-violent type opposition to the Chinese?

    I wouldn't be asking, but I am confused about some of the reactions to the self-immolation. A while back, I posted Robert Thurman's perspective that he posted on his facebook:
    Is this the typical view of self-immolation within TB? I'm not sure if I can wrap my head around it.
    There is no typical view of self-immolation in TB, because it's a relatively recent phenomenon. The DL expressed concern when it first began, but hasn't said much lately. I came across an interesting article about it recently, though. It said the Buddha felt that suicide for any reason was a cop-out from samsara, and facing samsara, and developing a practice to escape samsara. The article said there were two instances of "euthanasia", in which very elderly and ailing followers committed suicide. The Buddha forgave them, but didn't condone what they did. And of course, there's the 1st precept.

    I don't buy Thurman's statement. There's some concern, too, that all the self-immolaters were young, some still in their teens. How good is their judgment at such a young age? Most teen monks haven't received advanced teachings, if any teachings other than prayers and texts to memorize without understanding the meaning. So the extent to which their self-immolation would have been motivated by "love" or any Dharmic principle is doubtful.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Here's an article posted 5 days ago with some statements by HHDL on self immolation. He really doesn't say much though.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g-ZHQmBBy6M1E5AHewZYmRTTlASg?docId=CNG.ed0efe0b5d6d6b9267fc54dfbe287833.2b1
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited April 2012
    There is desperation as well, what I would call a desperate altruism. They are no fools--they are monks, mostly, who had their life mapped out in the way they chose. Even that was not assured--at any point, the government can derail your life. But now it is at the point that monks are being kidnapped en masse, cadres are coming into the monasteries forcibly and bunking with monks one-on-one, against their will, and only weeks Chinese forces set off explosives in a crowd of families, killing a young child.

    The Vietnamese monks did not self-immolate until things had gotten to the point of this desperation, and these Tibetans are now clearly at that point as well.

    This is not some casual choice that we can sit in such quick judgement on; what is being downplayed here, accidentally or through ignorance or whatever, is the incredibly deteriorated situation inside Tibet at this very moment. Never in history have Tibetan people self-immolated like this. And it's not only young monks--there have been older monks, 40 or so years old, and 40 year old farmers as well. Tibetans are under siege and absolutely no one is coming to their aid.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    Tibetans are under siege and absolutely no one is coming to their aid.
    What is your opinion on international "intervention" in the Middle East? Or perhaps the Kony campaign? Do you support foreign armies sweeping in to "save" segments of a population, and then occupying the nation to set up their (the occupiers') preferred form of governance?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Tibetans are under siege and absolutely no one is coming to their aid.
    What is your opinion on international "intervention" in the Middle East? Or perhaps the Kony campaign? Do you support foreign armies sweeping in to "save" segments of a population, and then occupying the nation to set up their (the occupiers') preferred form of governance?

    Very good point, Invincible.

    I am quite torn by such issues. For example, I could see good practical reasons for many years for the West intervening in Burma. But on the other side I could question the wisdom of intervening in another country's affairs.

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