Can anyone describe Hallucinations?

RichardH

I was just talking with my partner about sound and sight hallucinations, and realized that I have never actually had an hallucination... there have been the rope looking like a snake style tricks of the eye.. and plenty of mistaken perceptions (e.g. mistaking a friend's frown for her being angry at me), but never a full on hallucination.. Even back in the early drug days there were never full on hallucinations under the influence.

So.. my question is to anyone who experiences or has experienced audio or visual hallucinations . Could you please describe it? Does it involve not being able to tell the difference between what is imagined and what is a sensory motor reality? Is there a sense of an external source?

Thanks.

Mountains

I've had drug induced hallucinations. Years ago when I had major surgery, the pain medication of choice was Demerol. I guess it just seemed like a dream, but there were people in the wall behind my bed who were talking about me. It seemed perfectly real to me at the time, just as dreams usually do.

Jeffrey

I highly recommend this link it will answer your question, @RichardH.

www.intervoiceonline.org/2234/voices/what-is-hearing-voices/what-is-hearing-voices.html

person

I think I remember hearing that in schizophrenia, for example, the mind loses the distinction between what is happening inside vs what is happening outside. In my own brief encounter with delusion my inner dialogue appeared to me as real with occasionally a voice happening in my head sounded as real as if it were spoken by someone next to me, and once it appeared real the way I responded to it also changed. Never had a visual hallucination.

seeker242

Could you please describe it? Does it involve not being able to tell the difference between what is imagined and what is a sensory motor reality? Is there a sense of an external source?

Thanks.

Yes, that is usually the case. This is why the phenomena of sleep paralysis is often quite frightening to many people, which is usually accompanied by hypnopompic or hypnagogic hallucinations, visual as well as audible. Hearing a baby crying in the next room, when you are fully aware that you are in the house alone, can be a bit disturbing, ha!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

Jeffrey

@person, I realize the voices may or may not be outside. I have witnessed odd things in my life such as odd computer errors. I cannot prove or disprove my voices.

I have to live my life as if both are true. If I always buckle in to the voices that feels really bad and restricted. But if I rage against the voices they will kick my ass because they are very powerful.

So there is no way to prove they are real, but they can sure kick my ass. It is like a baseball hits you since it hurts it at least seems that it is real. Don't take the metaphor to far as you can use some evidence to prove the baseball false or real.

My voices are very insightful and help me with renunciation because they are very much expecting a tightly controlled mind. They hate when I say that they say that, they are NOT my purifiers and they aren't overly critical which is very interesting since it is not how I feel. They have emotions and respond as a person, internally coherent like Azimovs writing may have a consistent description of a futuristic society.

The voices also can kick my ass. At night they are trying to get to sleep. They remember every fight we have had somewhat recently. When I don't understand something they explain a few things but without me monopolizing or getting too high on new info. They know altercations, what day it was and how long it took. They know what time it is often even when I do not. Yet there is nothing that comes from outside my own awareness with the time it stands to reason that I have a rough internal clock, they only estimate the time. They do not share info out of my awareness. For example the voices do not say 'I am wearing a blue shirt today, we had baked chicken with mash potatoes and beans.' Or what do you think about the situation in middle east. The topic is always me and what is negative about me rather than a topic such as on a blue book college exam.

It is more about restrictions on me: mentally masturbating, analyzing, averaging, taking surveys, what names I have called the voices, telling me to shut up, advertising, false advertising, randomizing the conversation, being to needy or a victim, bad habits, who I have been thinking of and negativity I have towards people.

Did I mention that the voices can kick my ass? I have tried not believing them. It works a bit but then when I am vulnerable and they seem real, it is paybacks.

I have to also give the voices credit for some degree of mercy during the ass kicking (as my experience feels.) They aren't monsters and they might make suggestions such as calling an emergency number. They ease up on the criticisms at such an emergency.

ThailandTom

There are various ways to hallucinate and various types as well if you will. I have hallucinated from having a huge fever before for example, but then of course after taking hallucenogenic substances as well.

Most LSD trips at low-moderate doses will give you open eye visuals where colours are intense, eerything may look new and perfect, glistening even as if it has been photoshoped. Things will shift, for example if you looked at a tiled floor, the lines will be far from straight and the colour may be more vibrant or change in tone. Closed eye visuals on that type of dose are quite different, from what I have experienced you see lots of coloured fractual patterns and many things apart from darkness which I really cannot put into words.

Higher doses of LSD can create visuals where you may have experiences of seeing the fabric of the matter, have profound insights into how aspects of the universe work. A lot of this is hard to put into words.

I have hallucinated from MDMA often when I spent times in the woods with friends at night, I put that down to either my body temperature being really high, or the fact that MDMA gets broken down to MDA in the brain and after higher doses causes hallucinations. They were different to LSD, they were like scenerios playing out before you, actual objects things changing. I was once at the bottom of a small hill and my friend was at the top. I was convinced he had a lab coat on and was pacing back and forth with a baby in his arms. Another time a friend came running up to us from behind and within 10 seconds of watching him arrive, his face changed form to that of 3 people I knew, one including a woman.

When I had food poisoning, I had a very bad fever and was stuck in my bed being sick a lot. I thought a friend was there playing golf in my room, so I was shouting at him to leave. Of course, nobody was even there.

From what I have gathered from experiences, talking to other people and reading scientific research, LSD does not actually cause an hallucination as such, it just shifts the signal of your brain to connect with the universe on a different wave length so to speak. After all, you could call what you are looking at right now an hallucination as it is all mere illusion, perspective.

I have had some weird audio hallucinations where sound has started to echo and distort, eventually becoming alien to me. Everyone I tried listening to ended up speaking in other languages whch I had never heard before, that was scary at the time.

Here is a good report about hallucinations with LSD and the death of someones ego.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=69386

David

The only time I hallucinated and it wasn't drug induced it was salmonella untreated. I already shared that one here though.

My clan used to do alot of acid with nitrous oxide and we figured that if we didn't hallucinate, we got ripped off. I got into Timothy Learys stuff for a while and then Huxley and then Alan Watts. That is when I got turned onto Taoism and Buddhism. We would lock all the doors and turn off the phones and listen to music by Pink Floyd, Hawkwind, the Dead... Some intense times indeed. 21 years later and I still love Buddhism but the only intoxicant I indulge in is weed and that isn't often.

I got into Buddhism because it appealed to my phychedelic mind and then I got out of phychedelics on account of my Buddhism. What the heck?

It would have to be a pretty special occasion to even do mushrooms nowadays, lol.

Talisman

I've had hallucinations on ... more than one occasion. All were induced by ingestion of psilocybin mushrooms. From my experience, it is for the most part impossible to describe. It's been over 2 years since I had an experience like that.

Sometimes I reminisce and even fantasize about doing it again, but for the most part, the thought terrifies me. Not because of any life threatening or permanent damage, just ... it's a lot to handle ... a lot to handle.

Hallucinations I have had are all a synesthesia of some, most, or all sense media. So when you think, it manifests as a real sight that you can taste which gives rise to a sound, etc. It's all this connected but disjointed and often confusing reality where there is no sense of direction or cognition or perception, per se, but only because the distinctions between such processes are so blurred.

RichardH

I have taken LSD.. and experienced "hallucination".. I quote that because there was at no point any confusion about the nature of what I was experiencing.. I knew the difference between the psychedelia and my bum on the chair... Even in zazen during a retreat when there were strange distortions like my neck feeling like it was five feet long... I knew it was a distortion from prolonged concentration.

Jeffery's link and mountain's experience describe something else, that sense of an independent intelligence apart from your own mind... that could be very disturbing.

In the Dharmic sense I don't control my thoughts... thoughts flow of there own accord, and part of investigating anatman is realizing that... But they do come under the general sense of conventional agency of "my thoughts"... these description of hallucinations seem to involve a sense of outside agency.

Does knowing that the sense of outside agency is an illusion help?

RichardH

@person, I realize the voices may or may not be outside. I have witnessed odd things in my life such as odd computer errors. I cannot prove or disprove my voices.

I have to live my life as if both are true. If I always buckle in to the voices that feels really bad and restricted. But if I rage against the voices they will kick my ass because they are very powerful.

So there is no way to prove they are real, but they can sure kick my ass. It is like a baseball hits you since it hurts it at least seems that it is real. Don't take the metaphor to far as you can use some evidence to prove the baseball false or real.

My voices are very insightful and help me with renunciation because they are very much expecting a tightly controlled mind. They hate when I say that they say that, they are NOT my purifiers and they aren't overly critical which is very interesting since it is not how I feel. They have emotions and respond as a person, internally coherent like Azimovs writing may have a consistent description of a futuristic society.

The voices also can kick my ass. At night they are trying to get to sleep. They remember every fight we have had somewhat recently. When I don't understand something they explain a few things but without me monopolizing or getting too high on new info. They know altercations, what day it was and how long it took. They know what time it is often even when I do not. Yet there is nothing that comes from outside my own awareness with the time it stands to reason that I have a rough internal clock, they only estimate the time. They do not share info out of my awareness. For example the voices do not say 'I am wearing a blue shirt today, we had baked chicken with mash potatoes and beans.' Or what do you think about the situation in middle east. The topic is always me and what is negative about me rather than a topic such as on a blue book college exam.

It is more about restrictions on me: mentally masturbating, analyzing, averaging, taking surveys, what names I have called the voices, telling me to shut up, advertising, false advertising, randomizing the conversation, being to needy or a victim, bad habits, who I have been thinking of and negativity I have towards people.

Did I mention that the voices can kick my ass? I have tried not believing them. It works a bit but then when I am vulnerable and they seem real, it is paybacks.

I have to also give the voices credit for some degree of mercy during the ass kicking (as my experience feels.) They aren't monsters and they might make suggestions such as calling an emergency number. They ease up on the criticisms at such an emergency.

ah... posted that last one without seeing this... Thank you for this description, Jeffery.
I guess this answers my question... It sounds like it takes some doing, but people live with all kind of challenges... especially if you have good support.

ThailandTom

Art in motion!

David

I was just talking with my partner about sound and sight hallucinations, and realized that I have never actually had an hallucination... there have been the rope looking like a snake style tricks of the eye.. and plenty of mistaken perceptions (e.g. mistaking a friend's frown for her being angry at me), but never a full on hallucination.. Even back in the early drug days there were never full on hallucinations under the influence.

So.. my question is to anyone who experiences or has experienced audio or visual hallucinations . Could you please describe it? Does it involve not being able to tell the difference between what is imagined and what is a sensory motor reality? Is there a sense of an external source?

Thanks.

Usually it's easy to tell if it's a hallucination especially if that is the goal. However the mind is a funny thing. I had two trips where I didn't even know what/who/where I was let alone remember taking any kind of drug.

One I went through alternate realities (where my friends would be strangers and I hallucinated my entire surrounding), got lost and then thought I died of a heart attack. The other was mostly just mental but it started by looking too deeply at Salvator Dalis "Swans reflecting elephants" trying to find him standing there at the water. I did find him there and that's when I had an epiphany about opposites and how they don't exist except conceptually. I even came up with my own koan... What's the fine line between the tool and the art? I still actually use that one, lol.

At the end of that one, I convinced myself that I had either just programmed a perfect memory in myself or I had just gone completely insane. Then I couldn't remember the words to Uncle Johns Band and I lost it. The last of that trop I remember before morning is watching myself sitting on the couch with my two halves of the brain hanging out down to the floor and stitching themselves back together like a zipper.

I did get something out of both of those experiences but like the salmonella poisoning vision, I wouldn't want to do it again.



Can you see Dali standing there with his back to the scene?

RichardH

Can you see Dali standing there with his back to the scene?

yup..

Always liked...if that is right word, "Soft Construction with Boiled Beans"

Zayl

Listen OP, listen. Just smoke some Salvia, just once. The trips are intense and insightful and only last fifteen minutes at most. Then you are back to normal, no side effects whatsoever. What's more, Salvia is perfectly legal in most areas (at least in the U.S.)

Give it a spin. Nothing beats first hand experience my friend.

But, I shall tell you of an experience I had while tripping on Salvia. It is a story I have told my good friend @Thailandtom about. So maybe it will help answer your question. Or, perhaps it won't.

I was at my friends house, I had purchased a small bag of 60x Salvia from a website. We were in his basement which was rather run-down but we didn't care, as it was a place where we could hang without reservation. Anyway I will describe the basement to you, as it is rather important for you to know how your visual surroundings impact a hallucination. The floor was smooth concrete, painted a sky blue. The walls were cinderblock, painted white but with patches of blue from the paint on the floor due to very, very sloppy painting.

I hit the Salvia, and held it in. Upon release I felt lightheaded and giddy. As I started to look around the walls became the sky, with white fluffy clouds and everything. As I looked down I realized my feet were not resting on the floor, but rather resting in a tiny lake, tiny waves lapping at my ankles. On the shore of the lake there were tiny people fishing, grilling, laughing, having a good time. A few sailboats were on the water as well. everyone was happy and carefree, and I was this giant looming over them, but they did not mind. In fact, they waved to me and smiled. I felt that I was a god, or at the very least a guardian of these people. I did not feel power, I did not feel the need to rule. All I felt was the need to make sure they were happy, because if they were happy, then I was happy. All I felt was pure love and light.

and then the popcorn kernels sitting on the desk built a bridge of light to a chair, and then the trip ended.

RichardH

Listen OP, listen. Just smoke some Salvia, just once. The trips are intense and insightful and only last fifteen minutes at most. Then you are back to normal, no side effects whatsoever. What's more, Salvia is perfectly legal in most areas (at least in the U.S.)

Give it a spin. Nothing beats first hand experience my friend.

But, I shall tell you of an experience I had while tripping on Salvia. It is a story I have told my good friend @Thailandtom about. So maybe it will help answer your question. Or, perhaps it won't.

I was at my friends house, I had purchased a small bag of 60x Salvia from a website. We were in his basement which was rather run-down but we didn't care, as it was a place where we could hang without reservation. Anyway I will describe the basement to you, as it is rather important for you to know how your visual surroundings impact a hallucination. The floor was smooth concrete, painted a sky blue. The walls were cinderblock, painted white but with patches of blue from the paint on the floor due to very, very sloppy painting.

I hit the Salvia, and held it in. Upon release I felt lightheaded and giddy. As I started to look around the walls became the sky, with white fluffy clouds and everything. As I looked down I realized my feet were not resting on the floor, but rather resting in a tiny lake, tiny waves lapping at my ankles. On the shore of the lake there were tiny people fishing, grilling, laughing, having a good time. A few sailboats were on the water as well. everyone was happy and carefree, and I was this giant looming over them, but they did not mind. In fact, they waved to me and smiled. I felt that I was a god, or at the very least a guardian of these people. I did not feel power, I did not feel the need to rule. All I felt was the need to make sure they were happy, because if they were happy, then I was happy. All I felt was pure love and light.

and then the popcorn kernels sitting on the desk built a bridge of light to a chair, and then the trip ended.

Sounds interesting, Zayl..... but I have taken a precept to refrain from that. The reason being that mediation is about things as they are... ordinary as they are.. It's all I got... as such.

can't speak for others....

taiyaki

In daily waking life the ordinary is the greatest hallucination.
For instance objects and subjects appear to have solidity, yet absolutely nothing is solid.
Sounds vividly appear yet they are instantly gone.

But to dive deeper. I have a lot of lucid dreams. In such dreams it is very detailed and in a way an exact replica of everyday existence. The only difference is that the karmic projections from my mind are multiplied.

That means if anger is felt then its felt x10. If a demon is seen then there is a full on demon. Now being lucid one understands that these are all karmic projections which are products of imagination. Thus there is relaxation and wonder in dreams.

But how is this different than real life? What is more real my waking life or the life that is led in the dream world? Both seem like huge hallucinations. Both are huge projections of karma.

I've also done my fair share of lsd trips. But lsd trips are no different than the dream state. It is a complete opening of the unconscious mind blending into the conscious reality.

On a practical note, if you stare at anything long enough it starts to shift and dance. And eventually everything becomes illuminated light.

If everything is a play of consciousness on consciousness.

Then life itself is the biggest acid trip.

RichardH

In daily waking life the ordinary is the greatest hallucination.
For instance objects and subjects appear to have solidity, yet absolutely nothing is solid.
Sounds vividly appear yet they are instantly gone.

Damn... and I just paid my taxes this morning.

ThailandTom

That was one of my points, this being sober is an hallucination in itself, taking LSD for example or salvia just shifts your consciousness to a different wavelength.

Sabre

My couch was once a roller coaster. This was also salvia induced before I undertook the practice to abstain from such things. I wouldn´t really recommend it, it enriched my life even less than an actual visit to a theme park would have done...

ThailandTom

I personally don't like salvia, but I gained more insight spiritually in one night on LSD than 3 years on a cushion. That is just my experience though, and your salvia experience is just your experience.

RichardH

That was one of my points, this being sober is an hallucination in itself, taking LSD for example or salvia just shifts your consciousness to a different wavelength.

Then your bank account is an hallucination.. can you pay my hallucinatory taxes? ofcourse you can! it's just a hallucination. I'll pm you my account info so you can transfer funds Thanks.

taiyaki

Money is like a dream. Keyword is like.
That doesn't mean its real or it isn't real.

The only way money exists for us is nominally.
We designate a piece of paper with worth individually and collectively.

I use credit cards, so for myself its an invisible transaction between my bank and the credit card companies.

Though money is like a dream, it doesn't necessarily deny its function and worth.

Which we all karmically contribute to this reality.

ThailandTom

I don't have a bank account Rich, sorry fail :crazy: You are missing the point though, just because something is an illusion does not make it non-existent, you just view it in a different way.

I_AM_THAT

Perceptions of Reality and or Hallucinations are all manifestations of the mind... in order to determine what is real and what is a hallucination you need to know emptiness... After all, what is real?

RichardH

Well ... The conventional reality those of us who do not have the extra challenge of schizophrenia share, without much effort... is, as we all know, "empty of inherent existence".. we can all agree on that.

...and I'll leave it at that.. .....without positing any kind of metaphysical principle. or riff on it being hallucinatory.. .. Not that there is anything wrong with doing that... it's just not the matter at hand for me.

Jeffrey

Emptiness is form.

ThailandTom

If you have a direct and profound insght into emptniess which has created some greatluminosity , then you are pretty much at the doorstep of liberation and free from all delusion. All you need is the compassion part.

DaltheJigsaw

I highly recommend this link it will answer your question, @RichardH.

www.intervoiceonline.org/2234/voices/what-is-hearing-voices/what-is-hearing-voices.html

Thank you!

DaltheJigsaw

@person, I realize the voices may or may not be outside. I have witnessed odd things in my life such as odd computer errors. I cannot prove or disprove my voices.

I have to live my life as if both are true. If I always buckle in to the voices that feels really bad and restricted. But if I rage against the voices they will kick my ass because they are very powerful.

So there is no way to prove they are real, but they can sure kick my ass. It is like a baseball hits you since it hurts it at least seems that it is real. Don't take the metaphor to far as you can use some evidence to prove the baseball false or real.

My voices are very insightful and help me with renunciation because they are very much expecting a tightly controlled mind. They hate when I say that they say that, they are NOT my purifiers and they aren't overly critical which is very interesting since it is not how I feel. They have emotions and respond as a person, internally coherent like Azimovs writing may have a consistent description of a futuristic society.

The voices also can kick my ass. At night they are trying to get to sleep. They remember every fight we have had somewhat recently. When I don't understand something they explain a few things but without me monopolizing or getting too high on new info. They know altercations, what day it was and how long it took. They know what time it is often even when I do not. Yet there is nothing that comes from outside my own awareness with the time it stands to reason that I have a rough internal clock, they only estimate the time. They do not share info out of my awareness. For example the voices do not say 'I am wearing a blue shirt today, we had baked chicken with mash potatoes and beans.' Or what do you think about the situation in middle east. The topic is always me and what is negative about me rather than a topic such as on a blue book college exam.

It is more about restrictions on me: mentally masturbating, analyzing, averaging, taking surveys, what names I have called the voices, telling me to shut up, advertising, false advertising, randomizing the conversation, being to needy or a victim, bad habits, who I have been thinking of and negativity I have towards people.

Did I mention that the voices can kick my ass? I have tried not believing them. It works a bit but then when I am vulnerable and they seem real, it is paybacks.

I have to also give the voices credit for some degree of mercy during the ass kicking (as my experience feels.) They aren't monsters and they might make suggestions such as calling an emergency number. They ease up on the criticisms at such an emergency.

Trust me my friend you are not alone. I know exactly what you are speaking off.

David

In daily waking life the ordinary is the greatest hallucination.
For instance objects and subjects appear to have solidity, yet absolutely nothing is solid.
Sounds vividly appear yet they are instantly gone.

But to dive deeper. I have a lot of lucid dreams. In such dreams it is very detailed and in a way an exact replica of everyday existence. The only difference is that the karmic projections from my mind are multiplied.

That means if anger is felt then its felt x10. If a demon is seen then there is a full on demon. Now being lucid one understands that these are all karmic projections which are products of imagination. Thus there is relaxation and wonder in dreams.

But how is this different than real life? What is more real my waking life or the life that is led in the dream world? Both seem like huge hallucinations. Both are huge projections of karma.

I've also done my fair share of lsd trips. But lsd trips are no different than the dream state. It is a complete opening of the unconscious mind blending into the conscious reality.

On a practical note, if you stare at anything long enough it starts to shift and dance. And eventually everything becomes illuminated light.

If everything is a play of consciousness on consciousness.

Then life itself is the biggest acid trip.

I wouldn't mind getting into a conversation about lucid dreaming with you sometime. I've been doing it since I was little and experimented with it heavily in my late teens and early twenties.

Now when it happens I can have fun with it again but it was quite maddening for a spell... One thing I figure is that when testing it, it's best to jump straight up and not off a building or cliff unless it's the only option, lol... Just to be safe.

I've never tried to fly in real life to this day but hey...

Cinorjer

Interesting. Had a college Prof. who kinda specialized in studying hallucinations. Here's what he taught me.

Hallucinations can be called waking dreams, because they have a lot in common with dreams. The most important is that as it happens, hallucinations short circuit our sense of disbelief. In hallucinations anything can happen and we don't question if it's real or not at the time.

If in reality and with a clear mind, a big rabbit hopped into the room and waved at you and said Hi!, you'd be amazed, shocked, and immediately want to know what the heck is going on. If you hallucinate the same rabbit, you say to yourself, "Oh, it's a talking rabbit!" and wave back as it hops back out of the room. Only later if you aren't permanently messed up do you realize "Man, I just saw a huge rabbit in the house, and it talked to me! How messed up was I?" But at the time, hallucinations are believed to be real against all evidence.

Which is why it's so hard to treat schizophrenics. You can tell them the voices aren't real, but their brains can't process that. The voices are as real as you are, to them. Their disbelief has been damaged.

And yes, when I was way younger and foolish and hung out with other young, foolish people and experimenting with what I shouldn't have, I saw the above mentioned rabbit. It was exactly like the Prof said it would be. I discovered that I prefered searching for reality instead of exploring the unreal.

RichardH

Interesting. Had a college Prof. who kinda specialized in studying hallucinations. Here's what he taught me.

Hallucinations can be called waking dreams, because they have a lot in common with dreams. The most important is that as it happens, hallucinations short circuit our sense of disbelief. In hallucinations anything can happen and we don't question if it's real or not at the time.

If in reality and with a clear mind, a big rabbit hopped into the room and waved at you and said Hi!, you'd be amazed, shocked, and immediately want to know what the heck is going on. If you hallucinate the same rabbit, you say to yourself, "Oh, it's a talking rabbit!" and wave back as it hops back out of the room. Only later if you aren't permanently messed up do you realize "Man, I just saw a huge rabbit in the house, and it talked to me! How messed up was I?" But at the time, hallucinations are believed to be real against all evidence.

Which is why it's so hard to treat schizophrenics. You can tell them the voices aren't real, but their brains can't process that. The voices are as real as you are, to them. Their disbelief has been damaged.

And yes, when I was way younger and foolish and hung out with other young, foolish people and experimenting with what I shouldn't have, I saw the above mentioned rabbit. It was exactly like the Prof said it would be. I discovered that I prefered searching for reality instead of exploring the unreal.

ok... so loss of ability to distinguish between fantasy and sensory motor (or however it is best described) is what makes a hallucination. I did have LSD experiences when young (paid the price .....another thread), but in my case there was always a kind of fail-safe grounding... a background knowledge that a drug had been taken.

Thanks

David

Interesting. Had a college Prof. who kinda specialized in studying hallucinations. Here's what he taught me.

Hallucinations can be called waking dreams, because they have a lot in common with dreams. The most important is that as it happens, hallucinations short circuit our sense of disbelief. In hallucinations anything can happen and we don't question if it's real or not at the time.

If in reality and with a clear mind, a big rabbit hopped into the room and waved at you and said Hi!, you'd be amazed, shocked, and immediately want to know what the heck is going on. If you hallucinate the same rabbit, you say to yourself, "Oh, it's a talking rabbit!" and wave back as it hops back out of the room. Only later if you aren't permanently messed up do you realize "Man, I just saw a huge rabbit in the house, and it talked to me! How messed up was I?" But at the time, hallucinations are believed to be real against all evidence.

Which is why it's so hard to treat schizophrenics. You can tell them the voices aren't real, but their brains can't process that. The voices are as real as you are, to them. Their disbelief has been damaged.

And yes, when I was way younger and foolish and hung out with other young, foolish people and experimenting with what I shouldn't have, I saw the above mentioned rabbit. It was exactly like the Prof said it would be. I discovered that I prefered searching for reality instead of exploring the unreal.

ok... so lose of ability to distinguish between fantasy and sensory motor (or however it is best described) is what makes a hallucination. I did have LSD experiences when young (paid the price .....another thread), but in my case there was always a kind of fail-safe grounding... a background knowledge that a drug had been taken.

Thanks

Then you didn't take too much at once. I never thought it would happen to me either. Not taking your experiences lightly it's just that LSD has the ability to make you forget certain things if you take enough of it.

RichardH

Could be...could be not.. Our drug dose history is another discussion.

David

It's just a word to the wise and no more.

However, the dose does indeed have much to do with whether or not the hallucinations are recognized as such when it comes to LSD. This is the nature of the drug.

RichardH

Well .... I feel very lucky that I did not do more damage to my health than I already did through the abuse of drugs. I credit learning to keep my bearings through traumatic non-hallucinatory childhood experiences for not ending up dead like others I knew... as a teenager, immersed in a street culture.

RichardH

This is going off on a tangent here.... and it has been addressed in thread after thread..

...but just generally I think it is so important to get across that the non-ordinary states achieved by some drugs, are simply beside the point when it comes to Buddhist practice. The pursuit of special "higher" or "deeper" states completely misses the point.

This is not a moralistic stance... just a very practical one.

David

Me too. Mind you, it was within that very culture that I was introduced to Buddhism so perhaps I just got lucky.

But then even as a child I questioned everything including reality so it was inevitable I'd be turned onto psychedlics.

Funny how things go. I'm not even tempted by the thought.

This is going off on a tangent here.... and it has been addressed in thread after thread..

but just generally I think it is so important to get across that the non-ordinary states achieved by some drugs, are simply beside the point. when it comes to Buddhist practice. The pursuit of Special "higher" or "deeper" states completely misses the point.

This is not a moralistic stance... just a very practical one.

Agreed.

DairyLama

The pursuit of special "higher" or "deeper" states completely misses the point.

Including the jhanas?

RichardH

The pursuit of special "higher" or "deeper" states completely misses the point.

Including the jhanas?

Hi porpoise.. ..Some would say yes... some no. It depends on the school of Buddhism.

Both Theravadin and Zen teachers I have known do not emphasize Jhana...and have been clear that pursuit of special states misses the point.. Reaching for something... reaching for one condition over another.... is not the point. Yet, in practice there comes stillness and clarity..and it goes deep.. come what may.

ThailandTom

@ourself I had a similar introduction into psychedlics as you. I found however that I use to have this thought in my mind which would crop up from time to time that I felt like trying a drug, sooner or later I would come to try it. The seed was always planted. But I was a curious young fellow and was a kind of Dorian Gray, searching for sensual pleasures everywhere.

I now see clearly that I do not need psychedlics but ontop of that, my mental state is really not stable enough to embark on such a venture. I would probably have a bad trip. You know, I have recently realized that it was one trip I had by myself in my room on 4 liquid drops of 250micro gram acid that gave me social anxiety. Before I was anxious anyway, I had hyperchondriasis really quite badly, but in one night that all went away and in came social anxiety to stay.

David

@ourself I had a similar introduction into psychedlics as you. I found however that I use to have this thought in my mind which would crop up from time to time that I felt like trying a drug, sooner or later I would come to try it. The seed was always planted. But I was a curious young fellow and was a kind of Dorian Gray, searching for sensual pleasures everywhere.

I now see clearly that I do not need psychedlics but ontop of that, my mental state is really not stable enough to embark on such a venture. I would probably have a bad trip. You know, I have recently realized that it was one trip I had by myself in my room on 4 liquid drops of 250micro gram acid that gave me social anxiety. Before I was anxious anyway, I had hyperchondriasis really quite badly, but in one night that all went away and in came social anxiety to stay.

I always had social anxiety until just a few years ago. There's the possibility that I'd have a bad trip if I tried it now but that isn't the reason I wouldn't do it I don't think. I have very vivid dreams and sometimes they're lucid so using psychedelics would constitute as mental sloth, lol.

Besides, I wouldn't mind waking up here one day maybe... The last thing I want are secondary dreams when I'm not even sleeping!:D

ThailandTom

Waking up here would be liberation my friend would it not? Waking from this dream world of delusions and attachment. Anyway, please please please tell me how your social anxiety went away. I am desperate really, I have it in the form of a severe case and it is crippling. How old were you when it went away and at what level if you will did you have it?

David

Waking up here would be liberation my friend would it not? Waking from this dream world of delusions and attachment. Anyway, please please please tell me how your social anxiety went away. I am desperate really, I have it in the form of a severe case and it is crippling. How old were you when it went away and at what level if you will did you have it?

It went away kind of gradually and I'd say I started noticing when I was say between 25 and 27 but it wasn't until I was 32 that I actually started feeling confident without egotism. I had it in the worst way from when I was 9 or 10. I guess right around the time my Dad passed on. I started feeling very physically ugly (had a scar on my face from a big birthmark I had removed) and a little bit abandoned. I was suicidal and I'm told there was a watch on me. Every picture of myself my Mother had of me, I shredded. Boy, was she ever mad.

Come to think of it, death may have had a part in my recovery as well. My Mom died at Christmas time 2007, my wife died in August 2008 and my little brother blew himself up in March 2009. They were the three closest people to me in life. Being a care-giver for my wife was a real eye opener and being there for here in her time of dying was a time full of insight (as well as suffering but hey). I got to see what was important.

I was still heavily into studying Buddhism as well and it helped that every book and meeting I went to seemed rellevant to the situations. I'm very glad I got into Buddhism.

You and me. We inter-are. We inter-be.

If I'm not there for you, who will be there for me?

There is a saying that goes "Hurt people hurt people". With that in mind, I refuse to be hurt by others.

Another poster mentioned in another thread the importance of faking it til you make it. Smile until it comes naturally.

Be that change.

ThailandTom

I have had anxiety since a very young age as well, similar to you but of course not so similar as I think when my dad left and became estranged, it took a big toll on me mentally. I am currently 23, I have been hoping that it will some day just get better you know. It is no way to live, it sucks. I either don't leave the house very often and fear socializing when in fact I want to get out there and be normal, or I take medication for the rest of my life which I don't want to do. I ams orry to hear all of those tragic events, you seem like a strong minded person though to have gone through that and come out better. Maybe it does take something like that to put things into perspective. 2 nights ago I had a vivid dream about my mother dying, it was horrible. I felt genuine sadness and cried in my dream, what was weird is that my GF woke up to say she was going to work, I woke up kind of, said a few things like see you later, love you and take care. When I went back to sleep I continued with the dream where I had left off lol.

DairyLama

The pursuit of special "higher" or "deeper" states completely misses the point.

Including the jhanas?

Theravadin and Zen teachers I have known do not emphasize Jhana...and have been clear that pursuit of special states misses the point.. Reaching for something... reaching for one condition over another.... is not the point. Yet, in practice there comes stillness and clarity..and it goes deep.. come what may.

You're right, all we can do is create the conditions, but it does seem to be the case that insight requires a "higher" state of consciousness.

RichardH

The pursuit of special "higher" or "deeper" states completely misses the point.

Including the jhanas?

Theravadin and Zen teachers I have known do not emphasize Jhana...and have been clear that pursuit of special states misses the point.. Reaching for something... reaching for one condition over another.... is not the point. Yet, in practice there comes stillness and clarity..and it goes deep.. come what may.

You're right, all we can do is create the conditions, but it does seem to be the case that insight requires a "higher" state of consciousness.

Higher consciousness and lower consciousness come and go.. Don't mean to sound glib ..

Yesterday my wife and I were doing an accounting of a heaping helping of domestic/financial/health/household matters that are pressing. It is the kind of stuff that generates midlife anxiety.. Jen (my partner) looked at me and laughed, then said.. it is just experiencing.. no matter what the content. Even if there is a boulder rolling down a hill about to squish me , and I am in real distress... it is all just super-lubricated experiencing... all by itself.. like freeplay in unobstructed space. It is already super-lubricated.. and alone.

um... maybe super-lubricated isn't the best turn of phrase.. :buck:


Conditions are conditions are conditions... a higher condition is no "closer" to the unconditioned than a lower condition.. all conditions are equadistant to, and not other than, the unconditioned. Form is not other than emptiness.. all states subtle and gross.. are not other than emptiness... so trading a lower condition for a higher condition is a samsaric daisy chain.. Realizing the unconditioned is realizing the non-obstruction.. super-lubrication ... of the whole shebang... at once... as is .. not two.. alone. all-alone.

...I pretty tired right now so sorry for the goofy post... but it is true enough in practice.... coming from a Zen perspective at any rate..

Zayl