Holy, Unholy

RichardH

First we are ordinary.. nothing Holy... and something ain't right. Then we seek to become extraordinary.. Holy and something ain't right. Somewhere between being Unholy and Holy there is the realization that conditions are conditions... Form is Form... internal, external, subtle, and gross. Holy and Unholy are equidistant to, and not other than, Emptiness. This realization is effortless, like grace...and is the settling of Holy and Unholy, the settling of all accounts. Yet, after that, we still pursue Holiness anyway.. it just what we endlessly do... no problem.

Just riffing.

misecmisc1

holy, unholy are determinations because they do not exist intrinsically and so are conditioned. all conditioned things are anicca, dukkha, anatta.

i think in doing holy acts there is a difference - before the holy acts are done to get/achieve goodness/merit and so have clinging to get/achieve goodness/merit, though may be at a very subtle level. after the above is directly realized, the acts which are done will have no clinging to get/achieve goodness/merit, but will be done only for the welfare of others as a selfless act.

RichardH

i think in doing holy acts there is a difference - before the holy acts are done to get/achieve goodness/merit and so have clinging to get/achieve goodness/merit, though may be at a very subtle level. after the above is directly realized, the acts which are done will have no clinging to get/achieve goodness/merit, but will be done only for the welfare of others as a selfless act.

I am referring to both the former and the latter... but the latter is truly Holy to most.

.. actually the word "virtue" is better. I believe it was Bankei who's whole thrust was to understand "Bright Virtue"

..... just riffing. no pretending to anything...least of all coherency....

Jeffrey

Just to add wasn't it Bodhidharma who explained zen as 'lots of space and nothing holy'. And Trungpa Rinpoche who said 'no big deal'.

genkaku

Holy and unholy attempt to address suffering...

And who wants to suffer?

Theswingisyellow

Both are empty yet our conduct shapes this very existence and for those around us as well.

RichardH

I was just talking with my partner Jen (who's Dharma name is "ancient rock").. and we where laughing at how we are always naturally trying to be better people, yet always falling on our faces at new and refreshing angles. There are these extremes of getting stuck in Emptiness and licentiousness .. "I'm just fine, jack", .. and getting stuck in form " I am broken and need to be fixed".

According to wiki it was Kant who said .. "Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made" . I take that in a very beautiful Zen Buddhist way..

We do our best..endlessly never meeting the mark.. endlessly , yet this endless ongoing is perfect, whole.. embracing both samsara and nirvana.

...practice goes on..

Theswingisyellow

Reminds one of Sisyphus. Ours is an enternally unachievable task, no matter how many times we push the boulder up the hill it keeps rolling back down. Despite our circumstances we keep trying. That is greatness. That is living.

RichardH

Reminds one of Sisyphus. Ours is an enternally unachievable task, no matter how many times we push the boulder up the hill it keeps rolling back down. Despite our circumstances we keep trying. That is greatness. That is living.

Joko Beck referred to Sisyphus in the same context. Just pushing the boulder..now.

genkaku

"Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made"

@RichardH -- One of the generalized (and probably not always true, though it seems to be) conclusions I have come to when walking in the woods is this: Any time you see a straight line, it means that human beings have been mucking about.

Invincible_summer

Reminds one of Sisyphus. Ours is an enternally unachievable task, no matter how many times we push the boulder up the hill it keeps rolling back down. Despite our circumstances we keep trying. That is greatness. That is living.

Yup. We just have to imagine Sisyphus as being content w/ pushing the boulder.

JohnG

Maybe not putting a label on what you consider holy, and unholy could help.

RichardH

Maybe not putting a label on what you consider holy, and unholy could help.

In my own experience there are times of simple bright awakeness, without labels. Then virtue isn't virtue, and there is just spontaneous action... like when your hands reach out to steady someone who stumbles. Then at other times there is no simple awakeness. There is self-conscious virtue and non-virtue. ,

I do not believe it is possible, so long as I am alive, to only have the bright awakeness, without also non-awakeness.. it's like day and night. There is a line from a Koan "sunface Buddha, moonface Buddha" . I think this alludes to including both in practice... including both in whole nature.

genkaku

I think this alludes to including both in practice... including both in whole nature.

@RichardH -- And since both are already included, there is no need to 'include' them.

vinlyn

Maybe not putting a label on what you consider holy, and unholy could help.

In a way I think that's sort of pulling the wool over your own eyes. A label is merely a convenient tool man has to classify things...a very human trait. Whether we label it the "sun" or not, it's still there.