Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Scientific Uncertainty

personperson Don't believe everything you thinkThe liminal space Veteran
edited May 2012 in General Banter
When we talk about the correspondence between Buddhist insight and Western neuroscience, I must emphasize that Western scientific interpretations are, by and large, more descriptive than explanatory. And they are always incomplete and uncertain. While we in the West think we are progressing rapidly, and especially recently, I can say with personal conviction that over the course of forty years of teaching several neuroscience disciplines in several universities, I have found that everything I carefully learned and taught has undergone changes, mostly in radically revolutionary ways, even recently. I have felt obliged by these experiences to explain to my students that 50 percent of what I tell them is wrong, and that I can't for the life of me tell them which 50 percent.

Robert Livingston, MD Gentle Bridges p.177

My take on this isn't that we shouldn't believe in scientific findings and should instead rely solely upon religion for our answers. But instead that we shouldn't hold so tight to current scientific understanding of the universe sense it's apt to change.

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2012
    I liked reading this @person. I'm reviewing my organic chemistry after a 10 year hiatus and am curious what new 'name reactions' there will be. A name reaction is a specific transformation of a 'hookup' (think tinker toys) of organic atoms in a molecule can be administered to make a drug, textile, fertilizer, food additive, etc.
  • VictoriousVictorious Grim Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Hah! What else is news?
    And that goes for ALL science disciplins!

    I've been saying the same thing for ages but @vinlyn is all like "No that cant be true Science is soo perfect it never changes".

    /Victor
  • It was established scientific fact in 1450 that the earth was flat. And that it was the center of the universe. Science grows and changes.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Oops. Depends on what culture you were in. Check out Eratosthenes.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    “Science” changes.
    I think it’s important to see the difference between the scientific method and the (currently dominant) theories.

    The scientific method does probably change for the better; the instruments develop. There can be new theories about what’s happening when scientists do their thing.
    But the scientific method is a relatively solid building.

    There will be all kinds of contradicting findings and theories; but that’s all in the game. One day I read drinking coffee is good for me the next day it is bad; I just keep drinking it. That kind of rapid change is on a very detailed level.

    On a larger scale there are some dominant theories which have a very long lifespan. In fact I don’t think the basic notion of evolution – for example – will go away. That’s a pretty strong theory. Einstein’s not finished yet. The really strong theories keep getting confirmed and they just get stronger in time. They are not 50% wrong.

    Finally compared to religious notions scientific findings are superior, not because they cannot be wrong, but because they can be. They are under fire. Scientists shoot particles and try finding one going faster than light; because it would be great news: Einstein was wrong!
  • It was established scientific fact in 1450 that the earth was flat. And that it was the center of the universe. Science grows and changes.
    It wasn't a 'scientific' fact, it was just considered true.

    Anyway, the facts don't change, just our understanding of them.
  • Things aren't true because we can prove them; we can prove things because they are true.
  • zenffzenff Veteran
    All we will ever have are the “currently dominant theories”; never the Truth.
    “Das ding ans sich ist ein unbekanntes”. Ultimately we will never really know.

    The fact that our understanding of the world is changing is not proof of the failure of the scientific method; it is proof of how it really works. This method of critical investigation really improves our understanding of things.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    The fact that our understanding of the world is changing is not proof of the failure of the scientific method; it is proof of how it really works. This method of critical investigation really improves our understanding of things.
    Very true. Unfortunately the same thing cannot be said of religious belief.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    “Science” changes.
    I think it’s important to see the difference between the scientific method and the (currently dominant) theories.

    The scientific method does probably change for the better; the instruments develop. There can be new theories about what’s happening when scientists do their thing.
    But the scientific method is a relatively solid building.

    There will be all kinds of contradicting findings and theories; but that’s all in the game. One day I read drinking coffee is good for me the next day it is bad; I just keep drinking it. That kind of rapid change is on a very detailed level.

    On a larger scale there are some dominant theories which have a very long lifespan. In fact I don’t think the basic notion of evolution – for example – will go away. That’s a pretty strong theory. Einstein’s not finished yet. The really strong theories keep getting confirmed and they just get stronger in time. They are not 50% wrong.

    Finally compared to religious notions scientific findings are superior, not because they cannot be wrong, but because they can be. They are under fire. Scientists shoot particles and try finding one going faster than light; because it would be great news: Einstein was wrong!
    Zenff, I think you've put it very well. I think that when we talk about some scientific concept, we almost have to out an asterisk behind it, and that asterisk says "based on what we know at this time".

    As I mentioned in another thread, I just had to get off of Lipitor due to side effects. That doesn't mean that drug doesn't do what it is supposed to do. It just means that there are other realities to the drug that sometimes complicate its use. The theory of evolution has itself evolved as we have learned more and as we find additional fossil evidence that fill in those "missing links". But science takes things well beyond the "I've got a hunch" phase of human thinking.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    My objection isn't to the method of inquiry, but to the somewhat dogmatic attachment to current scientific understanding that rejects anything outside of its domain, ie. science currently believes the mind is wholely produced by the brain therefore the idea of rebirth is foolish religious superstition made up by primitive minds to comfort their weakling fear of death.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    My objection isn't to the method of inquiry, but to the somewhat dogmatic attachment to current scientific understanding that rejects anything outside of its domain, ie. science currently believes the mind is wholely produced by the brain therefore the idea of rebirth is foolish religious superstition made up by primitive minds to comfort their weakling fear of death.
    Hmmmm. Do you really see scientists, as a body, formally stating that?





  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    My objection isn't to the method of inquiry, but to the somewhat dogmatic attachment to current scientific understanding that rejects anything outside of its domain, ie. science currently believes the mind is wholely produced by the brain therefore the idea of rebirth is foolish religious superstition made up by primitive minds to comfort their weakling fear of death.
    Hmmmm. Do you really see scientists, as a body, formally stating that?

    Actual scientists are usually pretty open minded its the people who hold to current scientific thinking as the end all, be all of human knowledge and anything not understood by science as silly.

    Also I think it has been shown that new ideas in science get a lot of pushback and often scorn when they push against current dogma. If they are right, they will often win out but what about the shame and ridicule that gets placed upon the scientist with the new idea? Its not the skepticism or need for evidence that I have an issue with its the condescention. To me real science isn't about repeating known theories but about exploring new possibilities.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    My objection isn't to the method of inquiry, but to the somewhat dogmatic attachment to current scientific understanding that rejects anything outside of its domain, ie. science currently believes the mind is wholely produced by the brain therefore the idea of rebirth is foolish religious superstition made up by primitive minds to comfort their weakling fear of death.
    Hmmmm. Do you really see scientists, as a body, formally stating that?

    Actual scientists are usually pretty open minded its the people who hold to current scientific thinking as the end all, be all of human knowledge and anything not understood by science as silly.

    Also I think it has been shown that new ideas in science get a lot of pushback and often scorn when they push against current dogma. If they are right, they will often win out but what about the shame and ridicule that gets placed upon the scientist with the new idea? Its not the skepticism or need for evidence that I have an issue with its the condescention. To me real science isn't about repeating known theories but about exploring new possibilities.
    Okay, I see that.

    I guess I like that the pushback is there.

    I think of new surgeries and medicines, and I am afraid that without the pushback they would sometimes be accepted too quickly. If evolution were wrong, okay, no big problem. But if a new heart surgery technique wrong...permanent disability and even death could result. In my field -- education -- I often see people jump on a bandwagon too quickly as new ideas come along, and sometimes see people not jump on a bandwagon at all, even when a learning concept turns out to be very reliable.

  • zenffzenff Veteran
    The “hard problem of consciousness” is still open.
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    The “hard problem of consciousness” is still open.
    I appreciate that it's an open question for you, I honestly feel that is your attitude. There are plenty to whom it isn't an open question though.
  • It was established scientific fact in 1450 that the earth was flat. And that it was the center of the universe. Science grows and changes.
    It wasn't a 'scientific' fact, it was just considered true.

    Anyway, the facts don't change, just our understanding of them.
    Exactly my point. Ask anyone versed in science in 1450 however, and they'd have told you the earth was flat and that was that, so that made it established science. It's exactly the same today. I've been a nurse for 5 years, and things we "knew" to be true five years ago are now known to be exactly *not* true. The facts didn't change. But our understanding of them and their meaning is what changed.
Sign In or Register to comment.