Is it okay to drop a precept?

minimayhen88

I have been having such a hardship upholding the fourth precept (I can easily not lie, but sometimes I just without thinking cover something up) that I wish to drop it and uphold / focus diligently the first three? Otherwise I find myself feeling deep guilt every time I transgress it. I am very strict with the first three - but the fourth causes me too much mental grievance, to fully uphold it at the moment. Do some of ypou hold only three, and is it okay to 'drop one' so to speak. I strive to cause little to no harm and the others (2,3 precepts) come quite naturally. I also hold 7 / 8 of ten virtues ... to abstain from anger etc. as part of my Tradition (Humanistic Buddhism)

I would be very grateful of your opinions,

Claudie x

person

You can do whatever you want. I think its usually recommended to not drop a vow once taken as it sets a mental precedent to do so in the future. IMO it would be better to try to understand the reason you feel so guilty for transgressing and work on reducing that instead.

For myself in the Tibetan tradition I don't attend tantric empowerments because taking bodhisattva vows are part of the ceremony and I don't feel like I can legitimately uphold them.

You may want to engage in some type of practice to purify negative karma, that helps me relieve anxiety and guilt I may have about harmful conduct.

WHAT CAN I DO TO REMOVE PREVIOUS NEGATIVE KARMA?
Nobody likes to suffer, so we all like to rid ourselves of negative karmic potential.
There are several possibilities, and in fact we may need to try and apply all of these methods as much as we can:

To avoid having negative thoughts that lead to negative actions in the future, we need to observe and control our own thoughts and behaviour, and destroy our negative attitudes.
Similarly, we can observe/study (meditate) our own mind and encourage positive thoughts that lead to positive actions.
We can avoid negative karmic seeds to ripen by purifying it, using the four powers of purification (see below). Although this does not eliminate the negative karmic actions, it can avoid the results to occur.
Ultimately, when we realise emptiness directly (see the page on Wisdom), and remove all our delusions, we are not under the control of past karma anymore.
THE FOUR POWERS OF PURIFICATION
The purification practices found within Buddhism are not unlike the practices applied in many other religions. The most essential mental factor that one requires is sincerity or honesty with oneself. When one wants to purify past negative karma, one has to do some action with the correct motivation.
This is summarised in the following Four Powers of Purification:

Power of the Object: One should practice thinking of all sentient beings one may have hurt. Traditionally, one remembers all sentient beings and the Three Jewels of Refuge (Buddha, Dharma and Sangha), by generating compassion for all sentient beings and taking refuge.
Power of Regret: This should not be senseless guilt or self-recrimination, which are said to be useless emotional torture. What is intended here is to examine oneself and one's actions and to recognise that negative actions done in the past were very unwise.
Power of Promise: As a logical consequence of the above, one should promise not to repeat these negative actions. It is good if one can promise to avoid a negative behaviour for a specific time, or at least promise that one will put effort in avoiding repetition. Not being honest at this stage makes the practice useless or even harmful to oneself.
Power of Practice: Basically any positive action with a good motivation can be used as practice. Traditionally in Buddhism, one can practice e.g. making prostrations (throwing oneself to the floor - as a means to destroy pride), making offerings (to counteract greed), reading Buddhist texts (to counteract ignorance and negative thoughts), reciting mantras etc.
It is often explained that one needs to clear a field by purifying it from rocks and weeds, then planting seeds by study and meditation, giving water and fertiliser by doing positive actions, and automatically new harvest will grow.

http://viewonbuddhism.org/karma.html

Repitition of Vajrasattva mantra is a good practice.

http://www.wildmind.org/mantras/figures/vajrasattva-mantra

Dakini

They say it's better to take just one or two vows and keep them, than to take all 5, and not keep them. But I wonder if you're really breaking the 4th one. Withholding info can be a form of deceit, but it depends on your motivation. If you do so to prevent someone from suffering, then it's ok. Just a general rule of thumb.

RichardH

Hi mini.. this precept that precept. Dropping this..keeping that. maybe a bit of this..

It all sounds painfully selfconscious and fussy. You know what the precepts are.. OK.
You are a good egg.. basically.. OK. You are doing your best .. no doubt.. OK. You are only human.. OK. So live your life and don't fuss.. if you cross any lines or commit a heavy trespass you won't need anyone to tell you. Just trust yourself and don't worry. Don't overthink it.

vinlyn

I am "hard line" on the Precepts because to me they are one of the most basic elements of Buddhism.

But of course, you can do whatever you want.

But I would say that as humans we are not expected to be perfect, and that it would be better to continue to do the best you can do.

Tosh

But I would say that as humans we are not expected to be perfect, and that it would be better to continue to do the best you can do.

I agree with this. In A.A. there is a line in our basic text which says, "We seek spiritual progress, not perfection."

The problem with being a perfectionist is that we will fail to achieve it (probably), then get disillusioned and give it all up.

I try to learn from my mistakes.

And guilt is a useless emotion too; "I'm so sooo bad" comes from the same place as "I'm so sooo great". Regret is good though, regret helps us not to repeat negative behaviours.

taiyaki

Why don't you take it one hour at a time?
If thats too much then try 30 minutes.
then when you get good then try a day without lying.

saying never is very difficult. but take baby steps.

seeker242

If all the precepts just came naturally, we wouldn't even need them to begin with. It seems to me that the precept is not the problem. It seems the real problem is you beating yourself up over them. That sounds like a different issue altogether. Perhaps you should look into why you are doing that to yourself.

Jeffrey

The benefit of the precept means that it should make you feel better rather than worse. So if you can't keep it the strain of not being a good doobie might just be initial lesser problem and in the long run eventually you can keep the precept with some effort. You say you do it unconsciously and a meditation practice and remembering the triple gem and motivation to practice should eventually bring it to your conscious.

If it is a conscious choice to lie that is a different conversation.

taiyaki

the issue is that there is no such thing as an agent or free will.

thus whatever happens, just happens when conditions are ripe.

so whether "i" think "i" lie is based on some holding of a "truth" that we construct in relationship to the "false truth" we project outwards.

so a thought arises out of conditions from the past then the mind connects that thought to another thought and then deems it as a lie, thus guilt arises.

but you see the whole problem arises because of the "i". you think you own this thought or in fact that you made this thought. but its totally out of your control what arises in the moment.

the only control we have is how we respond to it and that doesn't even have an ounce of agency or self. just movements of intention based on conditions as well.

so is what you said a lie? well everything is a lie. because everything is on the basis of rules, structures that we place which we "give" objective existence to.

a lie is only a lie if we connect and have a hierarchy of truth.

and all stories are just stories. where are your stories? gone.

where is your guilt? gone.

do we own any of this? gone.

whats left? just this then gone.

best wishes my friend.

vinlyn

The benefit of the precept means that it should make you feel better rather than worse. So if you can't keep it the strain of not being a good doobie might just be initial lesser problem and in the long run eventually you can keep the precept with some effort. You say you do it unconsciously and a meditation practice and remembering the triple gem and motivation to practice should eventually bring it to your conscious.

If it is a conscious choice to lie that is a different conversation.

Yes, and if it is unconscious, then what you need to work on, in my view, is right thought...on a steady basis.

ittybittybat

OP: I say do what is best for you. If you feel like you should drop that precept, then do it. If you want to work at keeping your lying to a minimum, do it. It is your decision.

Jeffrey

I don't think there is a fold of the eight-fold, right thought. The way I hear it there is:

Ethics: right livelyhood, right speach, right action

Concentration: right mindfulness, right effort, right concentration

Wisdom: right intention, and right view


No right thought. Indeed Trungpa said: 'no thought deserves a gold medal or a reprimand'

When you pass through, no one can pin you down, no one can call you back....Zen Quotes by Ying-An.

vinlyn

Jeffrey, I use "right thought" as a synonym for "right mindfulness".

Jeffrey

mindfulness is smirti which I believe is more translated as awareness than thought. But I can see how you could think of it as a thought. Just I don't think anyone should fret over what discursive mind comes up.'

In the mahayana at least it's more a sense of openness. Rather than having 'correct cogitations'.

Opening outward and 'letting be'. A particular content of thought is not what is considered. It's like driving a car. You open to the whole scene. Nobody knows how we do it we just open. How am I writing these words? Smirti.

As a concentration (openness, concentration, effort) it is more a sense of opening to our experience.

The five indiryas: smirti, virya (joyful effort), sradda (faith), prajna (insight), and samadhi (concentration).. are related

Jeffrey

I think it is sectarian (come to think of it). Thanissaro Bhiku has written an essay criticizing the notion of openness. He is Theravadan. Whereas in the Mahayana openness is fundamental to awareness practice.

In the mahayana the mind is transformed rather than purified. The kleshas are washed away to their wisdom qualities. Muddy water let stand clears. The letting stand is openness.

orientalist

At a Dhamma talk in January, Ajahn Viradhammo (Abbot of Tisarana Monastery, Ottawa) advised not getting obsessed with keeping the precepts perfectly, since nobody can do that until they become an arahant. In his opinion, the purpose of the precepts was to promote mindfulness. If you are trying to follow the precepts, you are more likely to become mindful of doing something unskillful before you do it. So it's better to try and follow a precept than to drop it. But we shouldn't beat ourselves up when we fail.

Sabre

Hi Claudi!

Yes, the fourth precept is one that can be the hardest, in our busy lives it is so easy to have a slip of the tongue. I noticed the same. But because this precept is hard, it can also learn you the most.

Wise things have been said already. The precepts are trainings, not laws. It is not about keeping them, but about training to keep them. Somebody who is mindful of their actions, and maybe sometimes breaks a precept, can benefit more than somebody who who just holds the precepts because "they have to", without being mindful of their intentions.

And so, although it would be ideal to not break them, it is not wrong to break one. As soon as you do, mindfulness can kick in and notice: "Ah ok, missed that one." But it's ok, it's not a reason to have guilty feelings. Because at that moment is exactly the moment you learn a bit more about yourself and it will be a bit harder to break the precept the next time.

Eventually it will become second nature to follow this precept also. But this will not happen if you decide to drop it. Which of course, doesn't say that you are not allowed to, but I'd suggest to consider the above before doing so.

With metta,
Sabre

andyrobyn

My thought is that it is not ok to drop it - in my expereince it is when I really do not want to keep to such a commitment that it is most relevant to do so.
There are times I do not stictly adhere to my usual understanding of a precept and in these situations I generally know what to do without any thought of breaking a precept.

federica

I will tell you how it is with me:

No, it's not ok to drop a precept.
We, as run~of~the~mill laypeople, consider the first Five Precepts as ones we select to follow.
On "high-days and holy-days" we sometimes add the next three....

I doubt there is any monk anywhere who goes to his superior and says, "Number 46 is a hard one for me, could I drop it, do you think? Oh, and number 41 is a bitch too...."

(I believe their precepts number 272.... !)

Best just do the best you can with the materials you have and quit beating yourself up over it, than compromise your practice, simply because something is too challenging.

(Right Effort is a challenge to us all....

BonsaiDoug

I will tell you how it is with me:

No, it's not ok to drop a precept.
We, as run~of~the~mill laypeople, consider the first Five Precepts as ones we select to follow.

Simply and nicely said. I too feel there is a big difference between attempting to follow the Precepts, and taking a vow to follow them. For me, that voluntary "vow" part makes it binding. It's our personal commitment to a path.

Of course, just because we've made a vow doesn't mean we will be perfect in following the Precepts. But for me, it also doesn't mean we can drop those we have difficulties with.

DairyLama

I have been having such a hardship upholding the fourth precept (I can easily not lie, but sometimes I just without thinking cover something up) that I wish to drop it and uphold / focus diligently the first three?

I think we all struggle with at least one of the precepts, but that's OK, we're not perfect. As has been said, the precepts are training principles which help us to be mindful of our behaviour, so try to keep them all going. And it could be argued that the precepts we find most difficult are the ones to which we need to give the most attention.

vinlyn

...
And so, although it would be ideal to not break them, it is not wrong to break one...

Ah so murdering another person is not wrong.

Thanks!

Sabre

...
And so, although it would be ideal to not break them, it is not wrong to break one...

Ah so murdering another person is not wrong.

Thanks!

You're welcome!

Just depends on what you mean with wrong. The issue here is someone who griefs and has guilt for breaking a precept and thus apparently thinks she has done something wrong to have to feel like this. But the Buddha forgave even murderers and murderers became enlightened. So killing is not wrong in this sense of having to feel guilty for it, and neither is any other precept.

I prefer to call it unskillful instead of wrong. Calling things wrong gives people an incorrect idea of what the precepts are meant for. But unskillful and wrong are just words, however I hope the general idea of my reply is clear now. Is it?

With metta,
Sabre

vinlyn

...
And so, although it would be ideal to not break them, it is not wrong to break one...

Ah so murdering another person is not wrong.

Thanks!

You're welcome!

Just depends on what you mean with wrong. The issue here is someone who griefs and has guilt for breaking a precept and thus apparently thinks she has done something wrong to have to feel like this. But the Buddha forgave even murderers and murderers became enlightened. So killing is not wrong in this sense of having to feel guilty for it, and neither is any other precept.

I prefer to call it unskillful instead of wrong. Calling things wrong gives people an incorrect idea of what the precepts are meant for. But unskillful and wrong are just words, however I hope the general idea of my reply is clear now. Is it?

With metta,
Sabre

I guess it's clear, but wrong.

minimayhen88

Thank you all ^_^

In my tradition it is important to repent those wrong doings and not repeat them again ... which is where I struggle with the fourth precept .... as I seem to accidentally repeat the same wrong doings after repentance .... I have thus decided to practice the first 3 precepts, as strictly as always and simply train with the fourth Until I feel more confident taking it .... then when I am Taiwan, I may more formally take all 4 / 5 precepts with confidence and diligence, from a Master etc. :-)

Thank You ♥‿♥ x x c