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Is a Boxing career considered a Right Livelihood? (they have to 'hurt' their opponents to win)

zenmystezenmyste Veteran
edited May 2012 in General Banter
They earn their living by 'hurting' their opponent.

What are your thoughts??

Or even what are your thoughts on Boxing as a Hobbie?
Even as a hobbie, you have to spar and hit each other etc etc..

Thoughts pls? :)

Comments

  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    This is why I left Tae Kwon Do. Too much focus on competition. However we must remember that the opponent is willing and able to consent.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I'm a bit of a boxing fan, in fact looking forward to seeing last week's championship bout in a few hours. I think Ourself hit the nail on the head -- 2 people are voluntarily going at it. Now, a dirty boxer, breaking the rules...that's another story.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Both my brother and I had to train in boxing as kids and young teens. My father's side of the family were all professional boxers in Britain back in the heyday.

    We also fought in the ring. I never had the killer instinct and tended to hold back (had a wicked punch), but my brother had no such inhibition and went forward into competition.. no inhibition. I later continued to box as exercise and have taught my son how to box. We enjoy sparring and it is a great way for him to work with sensory integration issues and tourette syndrome. There is nothing unBuddhist about it at all. It has nothing to do with resolving things through violence. However if he is bullied... he can defend himself. ;)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited May 2012
    I think it depends on the mind rather than the letter. You could be an angry individual and the boxing could multiply that. Or it could help you with an expression of excellence and a discipline.

    But yeah it depends on the mind and what is cultivated.

    A good book about spiritual transformation and life's struggle with an emphasis on boxing is The Power of One. (not eckardt tolle or the US army slogan)
  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    To me, it's a mutually agreed to event, and both parties know what the outcome is, and how it will go to achieve that outcome. So, a sin, no.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    They earn their living by 'hurting' their opponent.
    What are your thoughts??
    Don't boxers develop large egos and eventually brain damage?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2012
    yeah, neither of which to my mind are exactly conducive to living the Dhamma.

    I think it's a dreadful sport, where two people wilfully stand in an enclosure and strive to beat each other into submission by inflicting pain and injury that could ultimately lead to unconsciousness, brain damage or even death.
    I can't figure it myself.
    Do it in the street, and you get arrested.
    Do it in a so-called controlled environment (ie, for money) and it's perfectly ok. :rolleyes:

    This is my opinion, and i've had it all my life, i'm not about to change my mind now, and no amount of persuasive arguments (heard 'em all before) can alter my opinion.
    so those who are pro - fair enough, but with respect - save your breath.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited May 2012


    Don't boxers develop large egos and eventually brain damage?
    The first point is not true. There is nothing about boxing that enlarges ego....despite the colourful antics of heavyweight champions. The second point is true... you are likely to give and receive serious damage if you pursue competition in the ring. Competitive boxing is just plain dangerous.

    But.. the boxing as a fitness skill... properly equipped... like any martial art.. is fun and not unbuddhist.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator


    The first point is not true. There is nothing about boxing that enlarges ego....despite the colourful antics of heavyweight champions....
    hmmm... chicken and egg situation aside, name me one limelight professional fighter who's been quiet, understated and deprecating in manner, having achieved a position of fame and prominence, in the public eye ....

    I can only think of one.
    Henry Cooper.
    But he comes from an age when boxing wasn't a money-oriented circus....

  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited May 2012
    This is my uncle Vic losing the British flyweight championship in 51

    http://www.britishpathe.com/video/allen-beats-vic-herman/query/flyweight

    He was not an understated guy.. gotta admit..

    Anybody who strives for public success, to stand out, at anything...... has big ego. ... even in the arts.... :D
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    Martial arts have been tied in with Buddhist practice for a long time. I suppose if undertaken as a discipline to train and improve oneself then it could be helpful. If its undertaken as a means to compete with and beat others then it would seem to be harmful to ones own mental state. The ethics of an agreed upon competition are certainly different than beating up somebody who doesn't want to fight. The ethics of it are different than the impact undertaking such an activity has upon one's own mind, though.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    yeah, neither of which to my mind are exactly conducive to living the Dhamma.

    I think it's a dreadful sport, where two people wilfully stand in an enclosure and strive to beat each other into submission by inflicting pain and injury that could ultimately lead to unconsciousness, brain damage or even death.
    I can't figure it myself.
    Do it in the street, and you get arrested.
    Do it in a so-called controlled environment (ie, for money) and it's perfectly ok. :rolleyes:

    This is my opinion, and i've had it all my life, i'm not about to change my mind now, and no amount of persuasive arguments (heard 'em all before) can alter my opinion.
    so those who are pro - fair enough, but with respect - save your breath.
    So far, none of us are trying to persuade anyone who feels differently. We simply answered the OP's question.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    Don't boxers develop large egos and eventually brain damage?
    The first point is not true. There is nothing about boxing that enlarges ego....despite the colourful antics of heavyweight champions. The second point is true... you are likely to give and receive serious damage if you pursue competition in the ring. Competitive boxing is just plain dangerous.

    But.. the boxing as a fitness skill... properly equipped... like any martial art.. is fun and not unbuddhist.

    I agree, and as we are quickly finding out, football, soccer, and many other competitive sports are dangerous, too.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2012
    ....
    This is my opinion, and i've had it all my life, i'm not about to change my mind now, and no amount of persuasive arguments (heard 'em all before) can alter my opinion.
    so those who are pro - fair enough, but with respect - save your breath.
    So far, none of us are trying to persuade anyone who feels differently. We simply answered the OP's question.
    I was merely speaking from previous experience.
    Hitherto, every time I have stated my opinion, I have received a flood of counter arguments trying to convince me of alternative arguments.
    Happily, that has not occurred here....

  • mind7mind7
    yeah, neither of which to my mind are exactly conducive to living the Dhamma.

    I think it's a dreadful sport, where two people wilfully stand in an enclosure and strive to beat each other into submission by inflicting pain and injury that could ultimately lead to unconsciousness, brain damage or even death.
    I can't figure it myself.
    Do it in the street, and you get arrested.
    Do it in a so-called controlled environment (ie, for money) and it's perfectly ok. :rolleyes:

    This is my opinion, and i've had it all my life, i'm not about to change my mind now, and no amount of persuasive arguments (heard 'em all before) can alter my opinion.
    so those who are pro - fair enough, but with respect - save your breath.
    So you're attached to your view of boxing
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    No. I'm attached to the 1st precept.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Martial arts have been tied in with Buddhist practice for a long time.
    I think a lot of Samurai called themselves "Buddhist", but that didn't stop them killing and slashing.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    But.. the boxing as a fitness skill... properly equipped... like any martial art.. is fun and not unbuddhist.

    But if you want to keep fit, why choose an activity which is based on physically harming others?
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited May 2012
    Boxing as a career, not just a hobby or amature sport? Well, there are a lot of Thai Kickboxers who might call themselves Buddhist, but that is probably irrelevant unless you find some monks putting on gloves and going at it for the temple championship over there.

    So I guess it means your answer revolves around the question, are you involved in an activity that seeks to cause physical harm to other people, or encourages other people to delight in watching someone get hurt? At the amature level including the Olympics, it seems to now be designed to count taps without actually hurting anyone, instead of seeing who can't get back up. On the professional level, it's still about knockouts.

    But I've never hit anyone in my life and don't plan on doing so, although a few bullies in school have punched me. I have to reserve my opinion as being highly biased.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    edited May 2012

    But if you want to keep fit, why choose an activity which is based on physically harming others?
    We do not physically harm each other. Why would I want to harm someone? or get harmed? Sparring, with proper gloves and headgear, and rules, is fun. Wrestling... olympic style.. is fun. ...hiking is fun. canoeing is fun.. etc.

    It is just another physically robust activity.




    Having said that... My son has a certain neurological issue that has drawn bullies who delighted in tormenting him just for the fun of seeing his tics escalate. He knows all about the precepts, he is wise beyond his years.. but he knows if he is cornered, he can stand up for himself... and I hope will not shy from doing so if required...

    Do I care if another Buddhist wags a finger at me for saying that? No.



  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Sparring, with proper gloves and headgear, and rules, is fun.
    It doesn't sound like fun to me, but each to his own I suppose.
  • RichardHRichardH Veteran
    Sparring, with proper gloves and headgear, and rules, is fun.
    It doesn't sound like fun to me, but each to his own I suppose.
    yup.

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