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How far do you take the precept of not lying?...
minimayhen88
Veteran
Do you simply avoid making deliberate false statements, such as saying you saw something, when in fact you didnt ......Or do you take it further, and avoid saying statements that may overlook the truth or avoid the truth (Omission) .... such as giving a flase impression .... or even concealing the truth? How strictly do you interpret / practice this key precept?
Kindly ^‿^
Kindly ^‿^
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Not so strictly: the idea is not hurting people. With that in mind we can sometimes tell a lie.
(Like in telling a child how special and wonderful they are; when the truth is that those little monsters are all the same and they are really stupid when you think about it)
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/buddhism/parable_burning_house.html
I found I just cannot lie when asked a direct question.
If not,
And my anwer could be painfull or create problemens...
I half tell the truth, by leaving stuff out,
I never make things up.
Can Nirvana be placed ahead of compassion?
If so, Nirvana can wait.
Pardon me for my generalisation.
Compassion trumps precepts. A man who tells his wife, "Yes, that dress does make you look fat." and "Now that you asked, yes, I wish you'd shut up about your day so I can watch the game on television." is telling the truth. He's also being obnoxious on purpose and showing no regard for others.
same here
often been labelled as extremely black/white thinker...
In my humble opinion,
After lot's of thinking, there are always just two options left:
yes/no
lying/telling truth
acting/non acting
etc.
"Yes, sir."
"Even so, little is the training of those who have no shame at intentional lying."
The Buddha then threw the water away and said: "Do you see this small amount of water that I have thrown away?"
"Yes, sir."
"Even so, Rahula, thrown away is the training of those who have no shame at intentional lying."
The Buddha then turned the pot over and said: "Do you see this pot that has been turned over?"
"Yes, sir."
"Even so, turned over is the training of those who have no shame at intentional lying."
The Buddha then turned the pot upright again and said: "Do you see this pot now empty and void?"
"Yes, sir."
"Even so, Rahula, empty and void is the training of those who have no shame at intentional lying."
The Buddha then impressed upon his son the importance of speaking the truth.
"Rahula, for anyone who has no shame at intentional lying, there is no evil that that person cannot do. Therefore, you should train yourself like this: 'I will not tell a lie, not even in jest.'"
Having explained what has to be done, the Buddha went on to explain to Rahula how it could be done.
"What do you think about this, Rahula? What is the purpose of a mirror?"
"The purpose of a mirror is to look at yourself."
"Even so, Rahula, one should act with body, speech or mind only after first looking at oneself. Before acting with body, speech or mind, one should think: 'What I am about to do, will it harm me or others?' If you can answer: 'Yes, it will,' then you should not act. But if you can answer: 'No, it will not,' then you should act. You should reflect in the same way while acting and after having acted. Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself thinking: 'We will act only after repeatedly looking at ourselves, only after reflecting on ourselves.'"
Now that's wisdom.
You stand at a fork in the road. Next to each of the two forks, there stands a guard. You know the following things: 1. One path leads to Paradise, the other to Death. From where you stand, you cannot distinguish between the two paths. Worse, once you start down a path, you cannot turn back. 2. One of the two guards always tells the truth. The other guard always lies. Unfortunately, it is impossible for you to distinguish between the two guards.
You have permission to ask one guard one question to ascertain which path leads to Paradise. Remember that you do not know which guard you're asking -- the truth-teller or the liar -- and that this single question determines whether you live or die. The question is: What one question asked of one guard guarantees that you are led onto the path to Paradise, regardless of which guard you happen to ask?
A rarity is not an impossibilIty but I agree. It is rarely necessary to lie. Even lying to spare feelings can be misguided in that it is assumed the person cannot handle the truth.
what a difficult unneccesary question..
we all die.
countless times.
I would turn back and do something fun.
Man, I just noticed my last post is only half there... scam.
"If I asked the _other_ guard, which door would he indicate
leads to Paradise?" Take the door _opposite_ to what's indicated!
Regardless of whom you ask, they'll point to the wrong door.
But to circle back to the original topic, mind altering substances are indeed, frowned upon." DrJWilson
Threads like these - about lying - always, but always - virtually without exception - always end up with the "Nazis at the door looking for Jews" question.
This is known as "Godwin's Law". Or our very own little 'Buddhists Lying' version of it....
We always have threads discussing when Lying would be appropriate, and somebody always ends up using the "Nazis at the door" analogy as a reasonable occasion in which to lie.
This analogy comes up time and time again.
You'd think by now we would have learned from it...
The analogy is absolutely, utterly completely and entirely superfluous, pointless and irrelevant.
Because the odds of it actually happening to us, and our being able to put it to the test, are probably so low they'd be incalculable.
so it's not a logical premise from which to operate, because it's extreme, unlikely and, as global issues stand at the moment, unless we actually live in the middle of a war-zone, so far removed as to be imaginary and total hypothesis.
and an hypothesis is not something that we can base our reality upon.
so please disregard the analogy, and keep it in 'real-time'.
And keeping it in real time is about NOT lying because the Buddha quite clearly stated that lying in any situation, whatever the circumstances - is not acceptable, or skilful.
glide by
So actually, be absolutely immersed in life.
"In it, but not of it".
why 'force' myself in it without forcing myself in it..when i'm content when i'm not in it. while still in it...?
cause I got a job and such...paying dues and bills and helping people, at least try were I can...
so...
or not speak at all..
Just as using violence to stop an attacker is sometimes the way of least harm.
Yes, it's an extreme example but it is an example non the less.
There is a reason it comes up in these threads, lol.
But I see Federica point of view as well. Great thread, nonetheless.
It's a no-no, if you read the teachings and follow them. violent self-defence should be a last resort.
If people aree volent towards you, and you need to defend yourself, you should still aim to do as little harm as possible.
But lying is different. in physical self-defence, it's a blow-for-blow.
Lying to someone for most reasons we can reasonably say we will experience (as opposed to far-fetched and unlikely ones) is not generally an equally necessary retort. No denial there.
I'm just saying it's completely pointless. ... which doesn't make it any less pointless.....
Welcome to samsara. j/k
What would you say to the cancer sufferer if s/he asks if everything will be OK?
What would you say to the dying mother who asks if her children will be fine?
What would you say to your wife/husband if s/he asks if they look ugly today?
The reality is that Buddhism cultivates the quality of the heart and this is what the WHOLE of the 84,000 + scriptures and teachings are all for.
Cultivation and freedom of the genuine heart.
And that is why when people demand to know what is it with the precepts, they are clear guides -- and very good ones. But as some buddy used to say alot, keep the precepts until the precepts keep themselves.
I would say to the cancer sufferer everything will be OK.
I would say to the dying mother that her children would be fine, they will learn and do just fine.
I would say to my wife/husband that today s/he looks absolutely beautiful.
Deceit is important to stamp out -- and foremost the deceit of greed, hatred, and delusion in ignorance -- but the openness, clarity and compassion of the heart, should never EVER die.
FWIW.
Abu
This question is about as black and white as you could ever get.
do you tell them the truth, or do you lie?
When the Nazis come knocking at your door, and ask you whether you're hiding Jews, let me know what you tell them.
"I don't know how to answer that.. tell you what you mean by ok...?" It depends what relation this mother is to me, doesn't it? "That's a dumb question! I married you because I loved you for every reason under the sun. Why, do you think I'm ugly?" And that should never be absent when we make that earnest decision to not lie.... Buddhism cultivates the quality of the Mind, not the heart. That is whence wisdom comes, and in every form is it cultivated.
for all the scriptures you cite, show m,e one where the buddha states that his teachings may be compromised.... Really?
And what did he mean by this? And if you know this to be the truth, and you are glad to be telling the truth, then that's fine.
They cannot be anything else.
This is how it is with me:
Truth is a steadfast quality in more than one religion, and is considered sacrosanct.
As Catholicism is one with which I am most familiar, I will merely take examples from christianity....
Not bearing false witness is in the 10 commandments.
Jesus Christ referred to himself as the Way, the Truth and the Life.
He tells those listening to his sermon on the mount, "Let your yes be yes, and your no, be no."
so he makes truth a big thing.
As did the Buddha.
Following the Buddha's path is not easy.
It's a challenge, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute.
It's one of the most difficult things I've personally ever undertaken, and every day I fail miserably.
But failure doesn't mean I can compromise on where I fail.
Failure just means I need to try harder next time.
but I stick with the programme.
And it's a really good programme, nothing wrong with it.
The factor with things 'wrong with it' - is me.
Your position is understood.
Well wishes,
Abu
Been thinking about this a lot. My step-sister once told me she was partial to liars because they want to improve their, or someone else's, life, and they believe lying will help achieve this. No bad thing. But it can be justified in too many situations. For one to truly claim their lie will be beneficial they would need to have superb clarity for what will happen in the future. I certainly don't have that kind of clarity for the situations I face. Plus i can't lie to save my life.