When are bodhisattvas suppose to decided to stay rather than enter nirvana? do they get asked LOL!!

zenmyste

Can you explain it because there are 'some' things about Buddhism that seem alittle 'too far fetched' to 'me'

When are Bodhisattvas suppose to decide not to enter nivanna and instead help other beings..

I dont get it? Please help!

Dharmakara

Usually it's the individual bodhisattva that decides. You might find this inspirational when it comes to personal practice:

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=6,5946,0,0,1,0

zenmyste

Usually it's the individual bodhisattva that decides.

When?????

This is what I'm asking, I dont understand?
'WHEN does a bodhisattva 'decide' ?

Surely they don't get asked by a god?

''Do you want to stay on earth to save all beings or enter nivana??

'Erm, I think ill stay on earth for at least one more birth and see how it goes..' Haha!

(Sorry I just can't get my head round it)


Anyone know the answer here pls?

Dharmakara

Yes, they usually decide this themselves. It's their vow, no one elses, so only the bodhisattva makes this decision, vowing to return as a bodhisattva for however many lifetimes, doing so with an eye single to the welfare and liberation of others.

If you get on a train or bus, only you know whether you need a round trip ticket or not

In theory and practice, a bodhisattva vows to forsake nirvana until all beings are liberated.

person

I don't think there is one moment where a choice is made. I think its more about which path one walks upon or maybe the choice is early on when one decides which path to take, the bodhisattva path or the sravaka path. I imagine the type of karma or realization that one gains walking either path would be somewhat different leading to different outcomes. I'm really just speculating though.

zenmyste

Yes, they usually decide this themselves. It's their vow, no one elses, so only the bodhisattva makes this decision, vowing to return as a bodhisattva for however many lifetimes, doing so with an eye single to the welfare and liberation of others.

If you get on a train or bus, only you know whether you need a round trip ticket or not

Again I ask, WHEN WHEN WHEN???? WHEN DO THEY DECIDE?

At the time of death?
Before death?
During life?
Do they tell a friend?
Do they know their bodhisattvas?
Etc etc etc...

How are these bodhisattva suppose to decide ?

(What happens if a bodhisattva is going about his day and get hit by a bus! And they die.
When do or did they decide to come BACK???

Sabre

To be honest, this is one thing I never understood either.
(But I feel more drawn to Therevadan Buddhism which doesn't have this idea)

Dharmakara

When they make the vow to begin with, when they undertake the obligation of the path. There is no external font to which they make that vow, there is no one they need to tell. It's their vow and no one else's.

What happens if a bodhisattva is going about his day and get hit by a bus? When do or did they decide to come back?

It could be in a flash of lightning or in the lifetime of a hundred men. You're asking what for all intents and purposes is an unponderable. This would be no different than asking the same question of one who believes in karmic rebirth.

"Excuse me, Mr. or Mrs. Buddhist, when will your next karmic rebirth occur?"

Sabre

When they make the vow to begin with, when they undertake the obligation of the path. There is no external font to which they make that vow, there is no one they need to tell. It's their vow and no one else's.

OK, Sounds reasonable. But how can they make such a decision without knowing what enlightenment and nirvana actually is?

Dharmakara

Again, one might ask the same thing of the run-of-the-mill Buddhist, why do they dedicate themselves to the practice of the Buddhist tradition without knowing what enlightenment and nirvana actually is.

Sabre

Ok, you have a point. But I do not fully agree, because they don't make a commitment.

Thank you.

Dharmakara

Are there not Buddhist precepts? Oh, yes, all Buddhists make a personal commitment, no more or less than in a marriage. If you're not commited to your practice, what have you gained from it? If you're not honoring your commitment to your spouce, where's the marriage?

It's more than simple words being spoken, well, unless it's just a label or false identity that someone has decided to adopt.

Jason

Can you explain it because there are 'some' things about Buddhism that seem alittle 'too far fetched' to 'me'

When are Bodhisattvas suppose to decide not to enter nivanna and instead help other beings..

I dont get it? Please help!

From what I understand of it from the Mahayana point of view, the cultivation/realization of bodhicitta (awakened mind) not only acts as a cause to help keep the bodhisattva on the path to buddhahood throughout their innumerable lifetimes, it acts as a positive, non-afflictive cause for the continuation of the enlightened being/mindstream as well. So I suppose that the arising of true bodhitcitta is when the bodhisattva's journey towards complete buddhahood begins, and what keeps them on this path for as long as it takes, acting as a seed that eventually sprouts into the maturation of supreme enlightenment.

Sabre

Are there not Buddhist precepts? Oh, yes, all Buddhists make a personal commitment, no more or less than in a marriage. If you're not commited to your practice, what have you gained from it?

For me the precepts and the Buddhist path are more an investigation than something else. Commitment follows from seeing results, it's not the start of things.

I know this is personal. Everybody has their own approach. But maybe you understand now why your ideas are not immediately obvious to me.

Dharmakara

@Sabre: I would have to disagree --- how are the five precepts an "investigation"? For example, is the precept to abstain from killing open to investigation? Would this not imply that one would likewise be required to kill in that investigation?

Investigation is not one sided IMHO

Furthermore, how does one "investigate" that which for all intents should be common sense?

- to undertake the training to abstain from taking life

- to undertake the training to abstain from taking what is not given

- to undertake the training to abstain from sexual misconduct

- to undertake the training to abstain from false speech

- to undertake the training to abstain from drink that causes heedlessness

While these precepts certainly allow you to investigate yourself, they're not something to investigate in and of thermselves, to see if they're valid or not.

RichardH

Here are the Bodhisattva vows.. taken with the precepts in the presence of your preceptor in Zen Buddhism, and repeated often.

-All beings without number, I vow to liberate.

-Endless blind passions, I vow to uproot.

-Dharma Gates, beyond measure, I vow to penetrate.

-The Great Way of the Buddha, I vow to attain.

Dharmakara

And the Avatamsaka Sutra goes even further than vows when it comes to the actual practice of the Bodhisattva Mahasattva as inspiration:

- study and learn the original practice of the Buddhas
- keep in mind and deliberate on the original practice of the Buddhas
- find contentment in the original practice of the Buddhas
- make pure the original practice of the Buddhas
- progress in the original practice of the Buddhas
- abide in and embrace the original practice of the Buddhas
- reveal the original practice of the Buddhas
- demonstrate and teach the original practice of the Buddhas, and
- make living beings eliminate suffering and attain contentment

The above would seem to imply that one must also look outside of the construct of institutionalized Buddhism.

RichardH

There is plenty to study.


ed. Athough it should be noted that different Mahayana traditions have a different approach.. all good of course.

Dharmakara

Yes, several differences, especially when it comes to the Vajrayana tradition.

RichardH

Yeh... I was introduced to Buddhism by my older sister who was a Vajrayana practitioner at the time... and later practiced for about a year with a teacher. I did not enter into serious Vajrayana practice, but did get a sense of the richness of Tibetan Buddhism.. and the brilliance of the Madhyamaka. I'm a simple sort... with good self discipline...so the Zen approach was a fit.

Dharmakara

Same here, though I quickly navigated toward Theravada, spent years there, and then finally found my way to Ch'an. Even during that early part of my life within the Theravada tradition, I never abandoned the aspects of the bodhisattva path, probably the reason I still place much emphasis on the practice of virtue.

how

Hey to @Zenmyste
A few wild zen views to shake up the Bodhisattva cart and other school claims.

(1) The Bodhisattva is not a theoretical being, its You!
(2) Nirvana is not a mystical place, its right where you now stand..
(3) The vows are simply statements of intent.

To understand that you are that Bodhisattva you need to know that its you simply choosing to first help others over whatever your ego may want.

To understand Nirvana from the viewpoint of a Bodhisattva, entering nirvana is just standing still, while not standing still is the selfless helping of others.

A Bodhisattva is the vow. The vow is the selfless helping of others. When there is no one left to help, you, the vow & nirvana are done.

The Mahayana approach is Cease from evil, do only good, do good for others.
The Theravada approach is Cease from evil, do only good, purify your mind.

They are two nearly identical ways of dealing with the human condition and helping senior disciples through some common monastic spiritual ailments.

Senior Theravada and Mahayana monastics both have worries about their disciples becoming self satisfied, complacent and plateauing within their practises.
The admonishment to "purify your mind" and "do good for others" are both appropriately endless tasks to encourage disciples that there is no place to snooze on one's spiritual laurels.


Theravadins get to party (but only in the driest possible sense) all the way to Nirvana
while Mahayanan's seem to have drawn the short straw to be the designated drivers.

Sucks to be us.

Dharmakara

Designated drivers, maybe --- the short straw, definitely not LOL

http://www.mahabodhi.net/toast/index.html

Sabre

@Sabre: I would have to disagree --- how are the five precepts an "investigation"?

I could explain, but doesn't really have to do with the topic, I think.

Metta!

David

Usually it's the individual bodhisattva that decides.

When?????

This is what I'm asking, I dont understand?
'WHEN does a bodhisattva 'decide' ?

Surely they don't get asked by a god?

''Do you want to stay on earth to save all beings or enter nivana??

'Erm, I think ill stay on earth for at least one more birth and see how it goes..' Haha!

(Sorry I just can't get my head round it)


Anyone know the answer here pls?

Of course. The answer is right now. What did you expect to hear?

I myself have taken the oath (informally)
so I'm prepared just in case.

David

Once the dart has left the hand, it is impossible to aim. Or so it seems leastways.

seeker242

When their compassion for the suffering of others rises to the level where they would want to stay and save others. When they have properly cultivated "bodhicitta".

Dharmakara

@Sabre: I would have to disagree --- how are the five precepts an "investigation"?

I could explain, but doesn't really have to do with the topic, I think.

Metta!

Then next time don't enter the topic into a discussion.

Sabre

@Sabre: I would have to disagree --- how are the five precepts an "investigation"?

I could explain, but doesn't really have to do with the topic, I think.

Metta!

Then next time don't enter the topic into a discussion.

Hi,

Ok, I don't see how it is important, but if you want to know:

When we begin practicing the precepts, they don't come naturally for everybody. What's wrong with killing a musqiuto, what's wrong with slightly changing the truth? What's wrong with taking what's not given, for example, picking up money you find somewhere?

This is all not immediately obvious to all. Therefore, there is the need for investigation into why the Buddha told us to practice like this. Also, practicing this and investigating the results is important to be able to hold the precepts more easily. If we just follow them out of commitment, they aren't as strong as when we directly see the benefits.

Notice that I'm saying to investigate the precepts, not investigate breaking them. This is something different.

Also, according to a lot of teachers, the precepts aren't just "don't do this, don't do that". They also imply that we practice the opposite. Being generous, creating peace & harmony with speach, etc. This requires even more investigation to see why it is fruitful.

Again, this is my take on it. I know some people practice with a different mindset and that's ok. However, to recap, I said it to explain my point how the path for me is an investigation and not a commitment. And therefore I personally can not see how a commitment like a Bodhissatva vow can honestly be done before knowing what enlightenment is.

To clarify, this is not an attack on those who took that vow. I think it is a beautiful idea.
Metta!

I_AM_THAT

The vow is the commitment; the commitment to seek liberation (enlightenment) for the sake of all other sentient beings.

This vow must be taken in front of a high spiritual teacher (guru), who will transfer specific empowerments to your practice.

The commitment comes in the form of agreeing to a specific daily practice; that you will practice the remaining days of this life.

Taking a vow of a specific practice should not be taken lightly and should not be spoken of freely. There is no need to let anyone know that you have taken on this vow, or this commitment. After all, you are doing it from them and not yourself.

Dharmakara

Sabre, the reason precepts are important is because they're part of the bodhisattva path, a path that has nothing to do with investigation when all is said and done --- it's a code of conduct which far exceeds the Five Precepts.

It's about transformation.

how

I try to remember that the path and ones investigation of it, results in suffering whenever its co opted as a sense of identity. In the Zen school we often bushwack, struggeling along with our backpack of pithy sayings.

Sabre

Sabre, the reason precepts are important is because they're part of the bodhisattva path, a path that has nothing to do with investigation when all is said and done --- it's a code of conduct which far exceeds the Five Precepts.

It's about transformation.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. But it doesn't really explain it for me. You say the bodhisattva path is not about investigation and that's exactly what I was pointing at. I can not understand that because my practice is based on investigation. I also can hardly imagine that all who took a bodhisattva vow have no investigation-based practice, so maybe someone else can explain.

But it's ok. I know different people have different approaches.

federica

@Sabre: I would have to disagree --- how are the five precepts an "investigation"?

I could explain, but doesn't really have to do with the topic, I think.

Metta!

Then next time don't enter the topic into a discussion.

@Dharmakaya, I and other moderators will decide what is appropriate to a discussion on a public forum.
Not you.
@Sabre gave an opinion but admitted that to elaborate in full may have taken the topic off at a tangent.
The Bodhisattva vow is peculiar to Mahayana. It is not necessarily viewed as a prerequisite in Theravada, for example, so what you may find logical and suitable for epansion others may not.
kindly be mindful that discussions are open to all, and everybody is entitled to contribute as much or as little as they see fit.

Dharmakara

All I was pointing out was the dialectics involved. Wish you all the best.

federica

No you weren't.

.....
I could explain, but doesn't really have to do with the topic, I think.
Metta!

Then next time don't enter the topic into a discussion.

your good wishes are noted.
I trust my comments are duly noted also.

Dharmakara

Not withstanding the possibility that there's mind readers on this forum, I was specifcally addressing the dialectical shortcoming of stopping a debate or discussion on a given topic.

Sabre

Ok. No need to make a fuss, I already picked up the topic again.
I thought I did not need to explain because it was not the topic. But apparently it was needed, so I did it anyway.

Hope we can continue now.

Metta!

I_AM_THAT

Sabre, the reason precepts are important is because they're part of the bodhisattva path, a path that has nothing to do with investigation when all is said and done --- it's a code of conduct which far exceeds the Five Precepts.

It's about transformation.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. But it doesn't really explain it for me. You say the bodhisattva path is not about investigation and that's exactly what I was pointing at. I can not understand that because my practice is based on investigation. I also can hardly imagine that all who took a bodhisattva vow have no investigation-based practice, so maybe someone else can explain.

But it's ok. I know different people have different approaches.

As with any path, investigation plays a key role on how an individual may or may not proceed. The bodhisattva path is no different; but it adds a huge caveat in that this path is being undertaken for the liberation of all sentient beings and not just for the individual. The Bodhisattva path is the Selfless path.

I also need to include that an individual usually will not consider such a path until that individual fully knows and understands what that path requires through an extensive investigative process; both internally and externally. Only then, should one even consider to proceed on this path since more harm can come to ones karma without the proper empowerment, and their own personnel convictions to these Bodhisattva vows.